Whose bank is it?

[Denis R]

This is related to my thread 'Am I wasting my time?' in 'living afloat', in that it has some bearing on my quest for a residential mooring....

Looking through previous posts on similar matters and trying to summarise my understanding regarding the non-towpath side of the canal, are these following assertions correct?

Unless BW can prove otherwise or the deeds of the land show otherwise, the landowner has the land up to the water's edge

The landowner, or a person with the landowner's permission can moor a boat against this bank of the canal.

The landowner may charge for the mooring, but BW can't.

BW have a reasonable right of access for essential maintenance.

As long as the boat is licensed, BW don't have powers of eviction or power to prevent the mooring.

The provision of facilities such as water, electricity, etc. are at the landowner's discretion (notwithstanding any planning permissions required).

Let me know if I'm way off track here!

[John Orentas]

Hi Denis.

 

There is no one answer to this, remember that the canals were built by many independent companies, and they were only nationalised in 1949 consequently they had varying arrangements with the adjoining landowners.

 

Many canal companies retained ownership of the land on each side of the canal to ensure access and the ones that didn't made sure that a right of access was part of the sale or lease of the land. In practise however from the moorers point of view it makes little difference who owners the land.

 

BW now have the right to charge for mooring even when the land belongs to someone else as in the case of 'end of garden' moorings so you will always have to pay, in the case where BW do not own the land they will charge 50% of their normal rate leaving the other 50% for the private owner.

 

But to repeat, there are many exceptions, for example the Rochdale Canal Company were so greedy and short sighted that they sold off everything they could without even ensuring access to their canal for maintenance purposes.

[Denis R]

Assuming that the landowner does actually own the land up to the water, does this mean that I could make a private agreement with the landowner regarding a residential mooring (liveaboard 24/7 blah, blah) and pay 50% of whatever to BW, or would they have power of veto?

[gaggle]

the following i believe to be fact

 

the land adjacent to the canal "offside" is for 1 yard from the waters edge the property of bw.the phase historicley belongs to bw is the language used.my source of information re-this part of answer was a councillor who was to act on my behalf in the purchase of a factory that has several hundred yards of canal bank on its perimiter,the canal bank is in actual size about 4 yards in width.the factory in pre-war times used to receive and send out goods on barges and given these facts it could well mean that historicley they had bought the bankside outright and if i bought the factory the canalbank would belong to me.

 

this part is on canal sites so i believe it is true.

in a recent court case bw won the right to charge mooring fees to a man who bought a canal side home. the property had a garden that came down to the waters edge and the man bought it as the ideal home with room for himself to have mooring space at his home.the courts decision gave bw the right to charge 50% of the local mooring fees currently being charged.it made no difference if the man himself used the mooring or he rented the space to someone else,bw have the right to charge him as the landowner 50%.if i own a farm bankside and charge anyone to moor up adjacent to the land bw have the right in law to recover the 50%.i can not for the life of me remember the site who reported the court case but it was on a site. bw got the cake and the cream gaggle

ps re- the factory,i took the workers out on strike to get sogat union in there,the union got in and the owner paid me good money to get out of his life,when he found out it was me twenty yrs later who was trying to buy the factory he said "tell him to f**k himself" and then i read about the court case and bw having the right to take 50%of any mooring charges,as i planned to have mooring for about 40 boats that was the end of the deal.fate does like to play these games with gaggle

[gaggle]

also if see post in sale wanted section by micheal"not commercial" he may as a land owner himself trying to rent moorings be able to give you sound advice .pm to him you never know

[Sam]

Also I think if i remember correctly BW can charge for some aspects (i can't remember exactly) as you are using their water etc..

[dor]

The point to bear in mind here is that even if the landowner owns the land right up to the water, your boat will not be ON his land but ON BW's water.

 

I believe that if you make a mooring in your land, then you do not have to pay BW for the mooring, but BW will charge the landowner for the water and access. Therefore even in a private marina there will be a charge by BW, which will be reflected in the mooring fee paid to the marina owner.

 

BW are also very fussy about who can cut though to their canal (unless you want to build a 300 boat marina in the middle of a very busy heavily locked section, then evidently the amount of money outweighs any principles).

[Denis R]

Supposing BW do own the bank and the landowner the land behind it, do I have to get permission from them to moor first, or just from the adjacent landowner?

If BW own both banks, do mooring restrictions (48 Hour, etc) apply to just the towpath side or the opposite bank too?

[John Orentas]

Denis,

 

You should always assume that BW are the controlling body in these matters, as Dor says after all your boat will always be floating on their water and they are also the navigation authority.

 

Sadly the only time we can thumb our nose at BW and tell them to mind their own business is if we were to crane the boat out and put it somewhere else.

 

In the unlikely event that you obtained permission from BW to cut through their bank to your newly dug out marina you will still not escape their overriding influence, they will even charge you for the water that flows into it and if your bit fills up with rainwater before-hand they will still charge.

 

The poor, taxes and BW charges will always be with us.

[Denis R]

See where you're coming from, John. However, I'm not looking to dig my own off-cut berth and connect in, or get something for nothing, but basically moor up and live aboard alongside someone's farm yard, from which I'll get access to the boat and facilities to use. I couldn't quite fathom out whether I first had to go through some procedure and get permission from BW to do this, or whether an agreement with the landowner which I then let BW know about would suffice?

 

Cheers,

 

Denis

[Sam]

See where you're coming from, John. However, I'm not looking to dig my own off-cut berth and connect in, or get something for nothing, but basically moor up and live aboard alongside someone's farm yard, from which I'll get access to the boat and facilities to use. I couldn't quite fathom out whether I first had to go through some procedure and get permission from BW to do this, or whether an agreement with the landowner which I then let BW know about would suffice?

 

Cheers,

 

Denis

21423[/snapback]

 

TALK TO BW FIRST - It's not worth sorting it all out then talkign to BW who give you a big fat NO NO - email BW or phone them or just pop into your local office!

 

CLICK HERE TO GO TO BW

[David Schweizer]

BW now have the right to charge for mooring even when the land belongs to someone else as in the case of 'end of garden' moorings so you will always have to pay, in the case where BW do not own the land they will charge 50% of their normal rate leaving the other 50% for the private owner.

 

21323[/snapback]

 

Whilst this is generally correct, there are some exceptions, where the landowner may have the right to moor one boat against his/her land without paying British Waterways anything. I know of two sites on the K&A and one on the Grand Union where the land owners do not pay BW anything and BW have been unable to enforce payment through legal process. These cases are rare and are usually enshrined either in Originasl Acts of Parliament or in the Deeds which were agreed with the original landowner at the time of the Canal being originally cut. Interestingly subsequent Acts of Parliament have apparently failed to erase these ancient Rights, however these mooring rights do not normally permit any person, other than the lanowner to moor a boat withot paying a fee.

 

The moral of this is story is:- Check the original Act of Parliament which authorised the Canal to be cut, and check the Deeds for the land, then consult a Solicitor.