Wheel steering

[blackrose]

Last night I went down the Thames to Limehouse as a passenger on someone's 70' Dutch style barge with wheel steering.

 

It was my first time to try wheel steering so when he asked me to take the helm for half an hour so that he could do a few things I was amazed at how little response you get in the steering. I could turn the wheel through two full turns and nothing would happen, and then after about half a minute the bow swung around and if I hadn't already compensated by turning the wheel back I'd be in trouble!

 

After the directness of tiller steering it all came as a bit of a shock. Is wheel steering always that indirect? It's almost like you've got to think 30 seconds ahead to steer. As far as I know the mechanism of his steering system works on cables and pulleys but I don't understand why it isn't geared so that you don't have to spin the wheel so much? I was standing on the bow so I don't know how he did those turns to get into Limehouse last night - he must have been spinning that wheel like a madman! Are hydraulic steering systems any better?

Edited August 22, 2008 by blackrose

[Boaty Jo]

We have cable and wheel steering and there’s no doubt that it is very different from a tiller. The rudders on barges are often large and heavy so cable / chain steering is geared so the wheel can be turned with little effort; but it means that more turns of the wheel are required to move the tiller. There is slack in the cables too so for a while (when the rudder is in certain positions) nothing happens. Having said that, when you are cruising along and you’ve got yourself going in a straight line, the smallest movement of the wheel nudges the boat off the straight, albeit with a slight delay. It is difficult initially not to overcompensate and it’s easy to find yourself zig-gagging.

When you first steer a narrowboat it appears sluggish if you compare it to a dinghy so I guess a heavier, wider barge is another step again.

With hydraulic steering I believe that people try and set it up so there are approximately six full turns from full lock to full lock (though I’m not 100% sure). I think that if you geared a cable system to six turns it would be extremely heavy to steer. I have driven one barge with hydraulic steering and though effortless, I found there wasn’t any ‘feel’ – in other words very little resistance when you turn off straight; with a cable system you do get direct feel with the rudder. (Not that I’m saying that we wouldn’t install an Hydraulic system if we had the cash.)

Another difficulty with wheel steering is that on some designs of barge the rudder is tucked away under the rear of the boat so you can’t see it; in this case some people rely on a rudder indicator which tells you the angle of the rudder via a dial on the dashboard. Our rudder is attached to a stern post and extends high enough to enable us to see it in a mirror while steering so we can always tell where the rudder is.

We also have a large tiller arm (that can be used as emergency steering) and although very responsive it is very heavy to shift.

Hope this makes some sense.

[1066]

The same problem occurs on grp cruisers ....... turn the wheel and nowt happens, then all of a sudden all hell breaks loose and you end up zig-zagging all over the place. Very entertaining when it's windy.

[Mick_B]

Ouch Mike.... I was only goin to bed when you posted that...

 

Your two turns of the wheel equates to about a foot movement of your tiller on Blackrose. It more than likely took two to three seconds for you to turn the wheel two complete revolutions but takes one second to move your tiller the same amount. That would make it seem less responsive.

 

You need to try my tupperware thingy. 20 foot long... light as a feather on the water and has a stern drive. With no rudder and a prop that turns you can turn it on a sixpence. Two turns of the wheel from lock to lock. Problem is going round a bend takes two inches of movement. Even half an inch and the boat turns. Try keeping that in a straight line at 4 mph. Designed to go much faster.

 

I need to get to the Shannon......

 

VROOOOOOOOMMMM.........

[fuzzyduck]

I have a balanced rudder on wheel steering.

 

Wheel steering will never be as 'direct' as tiller steering, but at 3 turns centre to lock I find mine is good enough. and I can steer with one finger, all day, sat comfortably, in the dry, in a seat, with a coffee in my hand.

[Mick_B]

I have a balanced rudder on wheel steering.

 

Wheel steering will never be as 'direct' as tiller steering, but at 3 turns centre to lock I find mine is good enough. and I can steer with one finger, all day, sat comfortably, in the dry, in a seat, with a coffee in my hand.

Bloomin' armchair boater's.....

[fuzzyduck]

Absolutely!!!

[bottle]

I have a balanced rudder on wheel steering.

 

Wheel steering will never be as 'direct' as tiller steering, but at 3 turns centre to lock I find mine is good enough. and I can steer with one finger, all day, sat comfortably, in the dry, in a seat, with a coffee in my hand.

 

Would it not be better in a cup or mug.

 

 

Where's my coat.

[DHutch]

It all depends.

- Our wheel is about six turns lock to lock, stainless steel cables over pulleys. Balenced schilling rudder.

 

The amount of feedback and slack varys lots. Hyrdaulic has litte of eather, wire/chain can have plenty of both. Its only if your realy lucky that you can get the feedback, without the play. And we're atleast halfway there most of the time.

 

It is very diffrent, proberbly harder, certainly if you're used to a tiller on a narrowboat. Which im not.

 

One thing i would say however, is its all about how you use it. I dont try and stear it like a car, turning a little the way i want to go, except for actually going stright.

- For bends, and certianly lock entrace, i use an impluse of whatever lenght/force required. Ie, i put two turns on, wait 30 seconds, and then take them off again, etc.

 

All adds to the fun!

 

 

Daniel

[fuzzyduck]

Something occurs to me.

 

How many of those with wheel steering have some kind of backup?

[magnetman]

Something occurs to me.

 

How many of those with wheel steering have some kind of backup?

I've had narrow boats with tiller steering since 1994 and this year I have moved onto a GRP motorsailer with hydraulic wheel steering. I find it more difficult to steer than a narrow boat. Fortunately the hydraulics have a bypass valve and the boat is fitted with a tiller (for when sailing) so if I really can't get my head round the steering wheel situation I go back to 'narrow boat' mode and have my hand on a lever with a direct link to the rudder. The tiller arm is also handy as a visual indication of the rudder position when wheel steering, something which you can't always ascertain specially in a twin helm hydraulic system where the steering wheels move independently so there won't be any particular point on the wheel which corresponds with straight ahead. It can be a bit odd compared to a canal boat if you don't know where the rudder is actually pointing when you want to pull out of a lock or something.

[1066]

Something occurs to me.

 

How many of those with wheel steering have some kind of backup?

 

Me .... I try to stay as close to the sides as possible so that I can jump out and deny all responsibility!

[Proper Job]

Something occurs to me.

 

How many of those with wheel steering have some kind of backup?

The Wrinklies dutch barge has hydaulic steering, but has an emergency back up tiller than can be fitted if required.

[blackrose]

Something occurs to me.

 

How many of those with wheel steering have some kind of backup?

 

I think it's called a 'jury rig' (or is that only for a DIY botch job?)

 

Anyway, the barge I was on didn't have one and I discussed this with the owner. If the cables or hydraulics break and you have no back up then it's all hands to their panic stations!

[Boaty Jo]

Anyway, the barge I was on didn't have one and I discussed this with the owner. If the cables or hydraulics break and you have no back up then it's all hands to their panic stations!

 

The thought of a cable failure in a difficult situation gives me the collywobbles. We have a tiller back-up so my wife would have to take the throttle & bowthruster controls and I would manage the tiller (which would be too heavy for her to handle).

 

I would be interested to know if your friend has a plan in case of failure as there must be other boats in a similar situation. Short of trying to control things as much as possible with the throttle (& bowthruster) and lobbing the anchor out, what else could they do?

[DHutch]

Something occurs to me.

 

How many of those with wheel steering have some kind of backup?

We also have a backup.

- The rudder post extends through the back deck terminating in a square end, onto which a sawn neck and tiller can be fitted.

- The visable end of the rudder post also doubles as a positional indicator. The swanneck and tiller are kept on board at all times.

 

 

Daniel

[blackrose]

I would be interested to know if your friend has a plan in case of failure as there must be other boats in a similar situation. Short of trying to control things as much as possible with the throttle (& bowthruster) and lobbing the anchor out, what else could they do?

 

I think the 'plan' is to start screaming The barge is 58 tonnes! If it were me I'd have some sort of jury rig ready even if it's just a rudimentary plywood rudder with a long tiller that slots into a bracket at the stern. At least someone could stand behind the wheelhouse and steer .

[FadeToScarlet]

I have a balanced rudder on wheel steering.

 

Wheel steering will never be as 'direct' as tiller steering, but at 3 turns centre to lock I find mine is good enough. and I can steer with one finger, all day, sat comfortably, in the dry, in a seat, with a coffee in my hand.

 

And making one-fingered gestures too?

[Ray]

After several years on both a narrow beam and a wider beam trip boat, both with tiller steering, I then had the chance at wheel steering on an electric trip boat - the motor's a bit like an egg whisk with a similar amount of power!

 

Its taken a bit of getting used to but I find that it is much better to steer in reverse than a tiller.

 

The trick I've found for (forward) stering is to turn the wheel the way you want the boat to go. As soon as the bow starts to move that way, start to turn the wheel back again. Eventually, this back and forth movement gets less and less and, with practice, you can judge how far to turn the wheel in each direction and how long it takes for that wheel movement to be transferred to bow movement.

 

I'd have no problems with at least contemplating wheel steering on a narrow boat and quite like the idea of living the sheltered life, under cover, as we crusie.

[fuzzyduck]

And making one-fingered gestures too?

 

Two is more my style.

[Radiomariner]

Two is more my style.

 

Ah! But you must not shout "sit and swivel", could cause injury. Is there not a European Directive banning the use of two fingers for safety reasons?

 

The quasi Latin for the single finger I believe is "Squattus digitalus et rotatum"

[carlt]

Something occurs to me.

 

How many of those with wheel steering have some kind of backup?

This....

 

Attaches to this:

 

 

Though I'm not sure I could force the single rudder against two props and 26 tons, unless I eats me spinach!

 

I think, if the hydraulics fail, I'll be dropping the hook and calling SAR on the radio.

[tidal]

Though I'm not sure I could force the single rudder against two props and 26 tons, unless I eats me spinach!

 

From experience Carl, I think you'd be surprised how much leverage you can suddenly exert on an emergency tiller when needs must.

And of course you do have twin props so that would give you steering (of a sort) as well

 

That being said, how many of those with "back-up" systems have actually tried using them?

 

 

Following a long and fairly strenuous session with "emergency system" on an old motorsailer one dark and wet night, whenever alternatives were present from then on, I tried them out BEFORE I had to.....

 

My undying affection for twin engines stems from those experiments as moving one lever forward and back is so much easier than heaving on the invariably too short and hard to fit (in a hurry) emergency tiller

[carlt]

My undying affection for twin engines stems from those experiments as moving one lever forward and back is so much easier than heaving on the invariably too short and hard to fit (in a hurry) emergency tiller

Sadly, owing to the tunnels, protecting the props, the "one forward, one back" produces practically no steering effect, at all, which surprised me, when playing, out at sea, but not as much as the boatyard bods who shot the boat out of the wet-dock, it had languished in for 4 years, and found there was no steering and they were headed, at full speed. towards crowded moorings, on the storm surge of last November.

[tidal]

I had forgotten the tunnels.....

 

Sorry still laughing at the thought of the looks on the faces of the boatyard bods in that situation. :lol:

 

I used to do a lot of yacht deliveries and it is amazing how many times these little idiosyncrasies can catch you out. Which is l the reason I wonder how many people actually check out their back-up systems. I have found that five years of paint on the tiller stub can make it a touch dificult to fit the tilller, especially at night