Diesel engine trouble - BMC 1.5

[Chris Pink]

They say it won't start as all 4 are down. They are supposed to be around 400 and 3 are around 200 and the fourth 120.

 

I can't understand how the engine managed to restart last time after using Easystart. If the engine was as bad as they say then why would it start at the first turn of the key while it was hot?

 

 

The clue is this; "They say I killed it using Easystart. "

 

Once they have told one lie - and make no mistake you have been told by several mechanically literate people here that this is not just mistaken, it is a lie – how can you trust them to do several £1,000s of work?

 

I have read this thread through and it is not clear to me that the heater plugs have been tested.

 

Almost every difficult to start BMC I have ever come across has duff heater plugs, even with the compression that far down it would still start.

 

If you are confident that the heater plugs are working well - they get hot! – then try taking off the air filter and putting a eggcup of engine oil into the air intake.

 

The 'leaving it overnight and it didn't start' is also a symptom of water in the fuel.

[RobinJ]

I am not an expert on mechanics, The limit of my skills stops at the point of basic work like bleeding the fuel system. The marina have an exclusive contract for working on boats (a clause in the mooring contract) which means I'm not allowed to bring in someone else to work on the boat. I asked them to fit the new fuel lift pump as I didn't have the time, they then suggested a compression test and pronounced the engine dead. When I had an oil leak on my working gearbox they sent it to a specialist who pronounced it dead, you get the idea. They seem to prefer the approach of replacing the whole engine to repairing it.

Might be a stupid question, but has anybody looked at the valve rocker clearances?

I cannot belive that an engine that has been running could have run with such a low compression even with easy start.

I could believe it fired, but as you say it took a long time to pick up, it may be just sticking valves or rings!

This ought to be classed as 'maintenance' rather than 'working'!

[Cattleya]

The clue is this; "They say I killed it using Easystart. "

 

Once they have told one lie - and make no mistake you have been told by several mechanically literate people here that this is not just mistaken, it is a lie – how can you trust them to do several £1,000s of work?

 

I have read this thread through and it is not clear to me that the heater plugs have been tested.

 

Almost every difficult to start BMC I have ever come across has duff heater plugs, even with the compression that far down it would still start.

 

If you are confident that the heater plugs are working well - they get hot! – then try taking off the air filter and putting a eggcup of engine oil into the air intake.

 

The 'leaving it overnight and it didn't start' is also a symptom of water in the fuel.

 

I have checked the glow plugs. They are getting voltage and I also checked them all with a multimeter. I replaced one (the one on the cylinder they say has low compression). The only thing I did notice was the voltage was around 10 volts and not 12 (tested between the engine earth and the main feed for the glowplugs). The battery had 12.6 volts.

 

I'll try the oil in the air intake next time I'm at the boat (it's a bit of a drive from home). I guess you are talking of putting normal engine oil in the air intake? And this seals the pistons or something?

 

One other thought, the cylinder with low compression is the same one as I changed the glowplug. I'm presuming they put the compression gauge on the glowplug hole? Or is it on the injector hole? I'm just wondering if the glowplug might not be tight enough?

[denboy]

Might be a stupid question, but has anybody looked at the valve rocker clearances?

I cannot belive that an engine that has been running could have run with such a low compression even with easy start.

I could believe it fired, but as you say it took a long time to pick up, it may be just sticking valves or rings!

This ought to be classed as 'maintenance' rather than 'working'!

good point if the valves are not closing properly ie all gunged up that would give a low compression reading or weak springs/broken spring

[Cattleya]

Might be a stupid question, but has anybody looked at the valve rocker clearances?

I cannot belive that an engine that has been running could have run with such a low compression even with easy start.

I could believe it fired, but as you say it took a long time to pick up, it may be just sticking valves or rings!

This ought to be classed as 'maintenance' rather than 'working'!

 

The only thing they have checked is the compression.

 

I also find it odd that once I got the engine going with Easystart it would start straight away unless left off for a while. I can't get my head around why it would start if it was so bad I had to get a new engine (which is what I'm being made to believe by the marina).

 

 

Regarding the rocker valves. Can you check those by just removing the rocker cover? And how do you check them?

[Bones]

Very bad news from the marina. They say the compression is down and the engine is knackered. They say I killed it using Easystart.

The compression is 120, 200, 220, 240.

 

They have given me two options, one they remove the engine and send it to be reconditioned. They estimate the cost to be between £1000 and £2500 plus the cost of removing and refitting, plus VAT. The second option was a new engine at £5500 plus VAt, plus fitting (another £3000 plus).

 

I have already paid £4200 for a new gearbox, prop and various other bits and nearly fell off my chair when I got the bill. I really can't afford to pay another £5k to £10k.

Personally I think this is a hugely overpriced gearbox. How come you pay almost as much for the gear box as for the engine. I had my gear box replaced a couple of years ago and it was NO WAY near this price (cant remember what it was!)

 

 

Hi Pete, I am following the advice on here.

 

I am not an expert on mechanics, The limit of my skills stops at the point of basic work like bleeding the fuel system. The marina have an exclusive contract for working on boats (a clause in the mooring contract) which means I'm not allowed to bring in someone else to work on the boat. I asked them to fit the new fuel lift pump as I didn't have the time, they then suggested a compression test and pronounced the engine dead. When I had an oil leak on my working gearbox they sent it to a specialist who pronounced it dead, you get the idea. They seem to prefer the approach of replacing the whole engine to repairing it.

 

As denboy says, can you moor it elsewhere? It really would be worth just moving the boat (or getting it towed by a chum) somewhere near a mechanic you can trust.

 

take the boat out for a trip and get someone to look at it on the towpath they cant touch you there they are fleecing you

 

Exactly!

 

 

They say it won't start as all 4 are down. They are supposed to be around 400 and 3 are around 200 and the fourth 120.

 

I can't understand how the engine managed to restart last time after using Easystart. If the engine was as bad as they say then why would it start at the first turn of the key while it was hot?

 

 

The clue is this; "They say I killed it using Easystart. "

 

Once they have told one lie - and make no mistake you have been told by several mechanically literate people here that this is not just mistaken, it is a lie – how can you trust them to do several £1,000s of work?

 

I have read this thread through and it is not clear to me that the heater plugs have been tested.

 

Almost every difficult to start BMC I have ever come across has duff heater plugs, even with the compression that far down it would still start.

 

If you are confident that the heater plugs are working well - they get hot! – then try taking off the air filter and putting a eggcup of engine oil into the air intake.

 

The 'leaving it overnight and it didn't start' is also a symptom of water in the fuel.

 

Chris makes a lot of sense here. I have been wondering about the possibility of water in your fuel. I notice you don't have an aggrowhatsit (that thing that separates the diesel and water before it gets to your lift pump). I know that when I had trouble with my engine emptying out the water helped - could it be the same in yours? I have no idea what the compression is on mine, but I emptied the water out, bled it a few times and hey presto it was pleased.

 

Are you a member of RCR?

[Malarky]

take the boat out for a trip and get someone to look at it on the towpath they cant touch you there they are fleecing you

 

Lets hope they havn't allready knackered it!

[Cattleya]

Thank you for all the suggestions so far. I'm on a river, not the canal. The nearest place I could take it for someone else to work on it is a couple of hours up the river.

 

I really don't believe it's as terminal as the marina say. I just get the impression they prefer to replace things than attempt to mend them. They said Easystart is evil but then said they use it to start their tractor. I don't believe that Easystart killed the engine, it didn't run before I used it. I also tend to think that something has broken, as the boat run one week and not the next. That doesn't sound like compression, which I presume would be lost slowly over years with the engine getting progressively worse at starting.

 

I did take a cylinder head off a car once and took it to a specialist for repair. So I guess I could extend my DIY skills to removing the head if necessary.

[denboy]

you tube vid of checking valve clearance`s not a bmc but the same technique is used on most engines

[Bones]

I used to moor in a marina somewhere where they had specific people to look at the boats etc. The way I got around it once was to ask my friendly mechanic whether he would like to come for a cup of tea, and look at my engine. He did, and it was no problem. I didn't tell the marina, nor did he, and he didn't do any work on the engine - he just told me what to do, how to do it, and said if I needed help he would come for another cup of tea and get his hands dirty. He was a car mechanic and he was familier with boats anyway. Would it be worth trying that?

 

What about some of your fellow moorers? Could they help you? If I was nearer to your mooring I would pop over and give you a hand - I doubt I would be able to help, but often another pair of hands and someone to scratch their head helps.

[alan_fincher]

Sorry,

 

Not what you want to hear, because you are clearly over a bit of a barrel about location, and who can work on the boat in the marina.

 

But I do agree entirely with what others are saying....

 

1) The gearbox replacement costs were eye-watering, and can not be justified in any way.

2) An engineer who tell you a single use (or even any small scale use) of EasyStart can damage an engine is either totally incompetent, lying, or possibly both.

 

Why should you believe anything else they tell you, (including the measured compressions).

 

My fairly elderly, smokey, BMC has managed to start on just two cylinders, whilst I had two of the injector pipes slacked off to bleed air out. A problem with one cylinder will not prevent the engine running at all.

 

My gut feel is that if the engine will run fine once you do get it going, no way is it as bad as they are saying.

 

I'm not sure how you get someone trustworthy to look at it. I have a similar clause in my mooring agreement, but could id needs be pole the boat outside, and get a mobile mechanic to the canal-side. It sounds like you are not so blessed.

 

Whatever you do, I think you desperately need a second opinion from somebody who has not already fleeced you and lied to you.

 

It still sounds fuel related to me, and given you have already had fuel problems, that would still be my number one suspect.

 

Where are you ? Could a friendly forum member drop by for a cuppa ?

 

Alan

Edited August 19, 2008 by alan_fincher

[Cattleya]

Hi Alan, I'm in Buckden marina on the River Great Ouse, Cambridgeshire.

[FORTUNATA]

I can sympathise as I also had major problems over my diesel engine since no way could I get a decent mechanic. It was an old engine and it just wouldn't start, but continually turned over. I concluded, more than likely, it was my heater plugs but these were totally out of reach and way way down in the engine box.

Incidentally I contacted about 6 different diesel mechanics and every one of these didn't turn up or turned out to be suspect in one way or another. I'd been messed about so much that, as I have a fibreglass boat, I winded up fitting a 2 stroke outboard for the time being.

As I understand it, poor compression puts more load on an engine, as well as on the battery. However, before dismantling the engine, I'd be inclined to check out the heater plugs myself. It could be something as simple as 12 volts not even getting to the heater plugs and without heat, the engine won't start. Sometimes the current also tracks to ground if the area around the plugs is damp and dirty. I can't help thinking if the engine runs on easy start, all it needs is for the heater plugs to do the same job as the easy start - pre-heating.

 

 

 

 

I used to moor in a marina somewhere where they had specific people to look at the boats etc. The way I got around it once was to ask my friendly mechanic whether he would like to come for a cup of tea, and look at my engine. He did, and it was no problem. I didn't tell the marina, nor did he, and he didn't do any work on the engine - he just told me what to do, how to do it, and said if I needed help he would come for another cup of tea and get his hands dirty. He was a car mechanic and he was familier with boats anyway. Would it be worth trying that?

 

What about some of your fellow moorers? Could they help you? If I was nearer to your mooring I would pop over and give you a hand - I doubt I would be able to help, but often another pair of hands and someone to scratch their head helps.

 

 

I missed this bit about it starting without pre-heating.

"Once the engine was warm it would restart straight away, but not if left for a while."

O.K. so if left to go cold the engine won't start. Maybe it would start on avery hot day even if the heater plugs aren't going.

Have the wires that run from the ignition to the heater plugs been checked with a multimeter? Sometimes the wire will split under the insulation so the engine may always be turning over but not enough heat in the cylinders.

 

A bit more background to this.

 

Previously (last year) the engine would start first time, even without the heaters. But it did smoke a bit and the smoke stunk of diesel. The boat was out of the water from November to May, I didn't manage to fill up the diesel tank previously due to bad weather, so it was a quarter full all winter. When the boat was realaunched a black slime was found in the filters and it was suspected water was in the fuel tank. The tank was treated and the filters changed a few times. The fuel now looks clean compared to the coca-cola colour it was.

 

Ever since relaunch it had been difficult to start, but not impossible. When it started I got a massive cloud of black smoke and soot all of the water. Then I lfet the boayt for about 6 weeks and when I returned it refused to start.

 

I got it started on Easystart (only used once) and it run fine once warmed up. But at first it refused to go above 500 rpm even with the throttle wide open. Once the engine was warm it would restart straight away, but not if left for a while.

 

I wonder if water has got into the injectors and damaged them? I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the compression test gives an all clear.

 

 

 

The engine was left in the boat during the gearbox change, they put a chain around the engine to support it and then removed the gearbox.

 

1/4 tank of diesel in boat overwinter.

 

Engine has never had any work other than oil changes.

 

There are no water sperators or pre filters. The fuel line runs from the tank to a stop cock and then to the lift pump (which has a filter gauze), then to the engine mounted fuel filter, then to the pump. The lift pump has been changed, and the fuel filter repaced.

[alan_fincher]

They have given me two options, one they remove the engine and send it to be reconditioned. They estimate the cost to be between £1000 and £2500 plus the cost of removing and refitting, plus VAT. The second option was a new engine at £5500 plus VAt, plus fitting (another £3000 plus).

When considering your options, look at the Calcutt website, as they supply fully reconditioned BMCs.....

 

http://www.calcuttboats.com/engines.html

 

Even a fully marinised (rebuilt) engine only retails at about £2,650, and you shouldn't really need that, as most of the marinisation parts can simply be transferred from your current engine. (Withouut the marinisation parts more like £1,800)

 

Because it's a same for same swap, the costs of fitting should be nowhere like what's been quoted, (in my view). Even if you swapped to the 1800 engine, it should still drop in exactly where a 1500 went.

 

I'm not suggesting you go this route, at this stage, just giving you some materials to compare prices you are bring quoted against.

[gralyn]

I have checked the glow plugs. They are getting voltage and I also checked them all with a multimeter. I replaced one (the one on the cylinder they say has low compression). The only thing I did notice was the voltage was around 10 volts and not 12 (tested between the engine earth and the main feed for the glowplugs). The battery had 12.6 volts.

 

The guy who moors next to me has a similar problem with his engine every so often. His fix is to take out the glo plugs and clean out the hole with an appropriate size drill bit. It seems that even if the Glo Plug is ok if the passage into the Cylinder is gunged up the engine will just not start when cold.

[LEO]

Hi,

 

Sorry to hear you continuing tale of woe. I had a 1.5 diesel, it was a problem to start when I first got the boat in 1988. I had to use easy start sometimes, it did not kill the engine.

 

You need about 60 secs min on the glow plugs and a good battery to turn the engine over quickly to start it, especially in cold weather

 

I broke a glow plug and had to remove the cylinder head, the valves were badly worn, especially the exhaust valves. I took it to a specialist (Green & Weatherall in Watford) had some new valves, all valves re -ground, new valve guides and the head skimmed for about £120 (a few years ago).

 

Re-assembled it started well.

 

It's not difficult to remove and re-assemble the cylinder head, but you need new gaskets, a torque wrench and a special spanner to get at the C/head nuts under the rocker shaft (don't try to do it without this spanner as you cannot torque the C/head nuts up properly).

 

Bingo! she ran well.

 

BMC's are prone to low compression, and I always found mine started easily when warm or in the summer.

 

A friend has been known to use a blow torch up the air inlet to start a reluctant engine.

 

I have little faith in some mechanics after one ruined an outboard by overtightening the flywheel nut on an outboard engine many years ago (Ladyline at Braunston).

 

Diesel cylinder heads are much easier to service than petrol engines.

 

The outlay if you do it this way will not be great.

 

ALBI

[RobinJ]

Regarding the rocker valves. Can you check those by just removing the rocker cover? And how do you check them?

Basically yes, need spanners, screwdriver and feeler gauge.

Remove the rocker cover (though I doubt if the figures are correct you'll need to remove the heater plugs), turn the crank over with a big spanner and when two valves are in balance (exhaust nearly closed inlet just opening) subtract them from nine and check the other two (doesn't matter which end you count from), 1.5 is about 17 thou for both.

[Cattleya]

It sounds like I'm best to do the work myself. Does anyone know the name of the special spanner for the head bolts? I mentioned to the marina that I thought you needed a special spanner and they had told me you don't. I think that shows how little they know about this engine.

 

I think I'll take off the glow plugs and check them out, then take off the rocker cover and measure the valve clearance. Then I guess it's time for taking the head off and dropping it into a specialist for repair.

 

Sounds like my boating is over for the season, but at least with the DIY approach I'll still be able to afford to eat!

[Alvin]

I have an old (1975) BMC engine on my boat. Recently I spent a small fortune having a new gearbox fitted and it's sods law that now the engine is giving me problems. I posted a while back about my problems and still haven't managed to sort it out.

 

The engine won't start. It turns over freely, makes some noises like it's trying to start, but won't fire.

 

I suspected the fuel system, so started it on Easystart. The engine started and run fine, although took a while to pick up revs. I switched it off and back on, it started first time. I left it running for about an hour, then switched off for about 10 minutes. It wouldn't start again without a lot of cranking. Left overnight it wouldn't start at all. I thought it must be an air leak, so replaced an injector pipe that looked iffy, replaced the fuel filter, bled the system. Still wouldn't start.

 

I then got the marina to fit a new lift pump as I suspected the old one might be the cause of the problem. The marina called to say it stil won't run. I have plenty of fuel getting to the ends of the injector pipes and the ehaust smokes when the engine is turned over.

 

They say I probably damaged it with Easystart, but I only ever used it once and only a quick spray.

 

They are going to do a compression test for me and are talking of major expense. I'm a bit skint after the gearbox.

 

Any ideas as to other causes for the engine not running? I presume if it was something major it wouldn't have run at alll or restarted last time?

Have been working on old Lister SL3 (1963)for some months (in boat)and have been thumbing through manual often. Under heading for starting or running faults, says; Smoky Exhaust- Black smoke due to incomplete combustion of fuel caused by:a) overload causing an excessive qty of fuel to be injected. choked air intake c)poor atomisation due to choked injector d)unsuitable fuel. Heavy blue oil is caused by lub. oil passing piston rings, due to either stuck piston ring or worn cylinder.

Hope this is of some help. I know is not the same engine but faults are probably the same . I will keep looking at your posts and quote my manual where applicable . Good luck. Alvin

[John Orentas]

It sounds like I'm best to do the work myself. Does anyone know the name of the special spanner for the head bolts? I mentioned to the marina that I thought you needed a special spanner and they had told me you don't. I think that shows how little they know about this engine.

 

I think I'll take off the glow plugs and check them out, then take off the rocker cover and measure the valve clearance. Then I guess it's time for taking the head off and dropping it into a specialist for repair.

 

Sounds like my boating is over for the season, but at least with the DIY approach I'll still be able to afford to eat!

 

 

Where did all this come from, why on earth do you want to remove the cylinder head, that is in the realms of a last resort, neither is there the slightest reason to suspect that valve clearances can have an effect on anything.

 

I would virtually guarantee that your problems are to do with the fuel supply or perhaps the fuel itself, you must look for the problem systematically, and make sure you are armed with a good condition fully charged battery (or even two)

[Bones]

It sounds like I'm best to do the work myself. Does anyone know the name of the special spanner for the head bolts? I mentioned to the marina that I thought you needed a special spanner and they had told me you don't. I think that shows how little they know about this engine.

 

I think I'll take off the glow plugs and check them out, then take off the rocker cover and measure the valve clearance. Then I guess it's time for taking the head off and dropping it into a specialist for repair.

 

Sounds like my boating is over for the season, but at least with the DIY approach I'll still be able to afford to eat!

 

ARE YOU SURE THERE ISN'T WATER IN THE FUEL?????????????????????????????

[LEO]

Hi,

 

Yes I would carefully check the fuel system and bleed through plenty of diesel ( I note that you left it 1/4 full over the winter). The trial with clean fuel is also a good idea. And also try and get any 'gunge' out of the bottom of the tank (pipe in to bottom of tank, pump out agallon or so).

 

Overhaul of the cylinder head is a possible and easy way of improving the compression. I purchased a special spanner from 'Snap On' and had to adjust it to fit. I had one until a few months ago but a guy from Spain contacted me and purchased it. It may be possible to change the C/head without it but there's no way the nuts can be correctly re-tightened without using one. ( I know because a cylinder head leaked after renewal when I tried).

 

How many hours has the engine run and how old is it? teh engine may be getting to the stage when a c/head overhaul is needed, including servicing of the injectors.

 

As has been said, a good battery is needed, as using the glow plugs takes a lot out of a battery and reduces the cranking power considerably.

 

What cooling system do you have, for several years mine had a raw water system and cranking without starting caused water to back up in the exhaust system and a small amount got into the engine. I was lucky no serious damage was done but the Specialist engineers indicated the pitting in the head and valve seats suggested a water leak.

 

Best of luck, it does not sound too serious..

 

Albi

[Tony Brooks]

It sounds like I'm best to do the work myself. Does anyone know the name of the special spanner for the head bolts? I mentioned to the marina that I thought you needed a special spanner and they had told me you don't. I think that shows how little they know about this engine.

 

I think I'll take off the glow plugs and check them out, then take off the rocker cover and measure the valve clearance. Then I guess it's time for taking the head off and dropping it into a specialist for repair.

 

Sounds like my boating is over for the season, but at least with the DIY approach I'll still be able to afford to eat!

 

 

Its called a crows foot and several tool suppliers list them. However they are not like the "proper" one that had the 1/2" square drive hole directly above the bolt, being cranked to fit around the rocker shaft. These have the square to one side of the ring at head level so movement will be restricted and its important exactly how you position the torque wrench in the extension if you want accurate torques. The other problem is that the nuts are (I think) 5/8 AF and the available ones are metric, but I suspect a 16mm will do the job. talk to your local Motor Factors.

 

It is not 100% true to say you can not do the job without the crows foot because it is possible (if tedious) to use a hammer shaft to push down each valve spring in turn and tap the rocker shaft out of the rockers posts so an ordinary socket will fit. I know someone who did this rather than get the spanner, but I fear it could easily lead to a bent rocker shaft and from my experience removing a rocker shaft from an elderly BMC will cause you to renew it because of the wear under the rocker arms.

[Cattleya]

Thank you so much for all the advice.

 

How many hours has the engine run and how old is it? teh engine may be getting to the stage when a c/head overhaul is needed, including servicing of the injectors.

 

The engine has done 1500 hours since 1975.

 

As has been said, a good battery is needed, as using the glow plugs takes a lot out of a battery and reduces the cranking power considerably.

 

 

Would a low battery cause a reduction in the compression readings? Unless the marina charged my battery first (unlikely) it was already down on power from my last attempts at starting the engine. Usually I leave it to charge for a day before making an attempt at starting the engine. The battery seems to be in good order.

 

What cooling system do you have,

 

It's not raw water cooled. The engine has a heat exchanger and is cooled with water from the river which passes through the heat exchanger and cools the captive cooling side.

[Bones]

When the engine doesn't start in the morning or whenever have you tried bleeding it, and does it then start?