Jump to content

Another one bites the dust!


Featured Posts

Sad to say yet another builder is no more it seems Simpsons Boats have called it a day.

 

Now does anyone remember my views on how boat shows aren't the best place to buy a boat and how it often is when you exhibit at the likes of Crick etc?

 

 

Maybe the VAT busting Tug & Butty didn't help the situation either?

Edited by Gary Peacock
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And another one, and another one, and another bites the dust!

 

Hope nobody was stung :lol:

There is a couple who have just joined the Canal Forum who seem to be in trouble. They are looking to contact other customers, presumably to help each other out. Anyone know any? Cheers Graham

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It makes you wonder how many more will go before supply becomes more balanced with demand?

 

It's easy to blame the economy and foreign competition for the problems builders are having at the moment but I get the feeling it's a lot more deep routed involving also big changes in the market itself.

 

Over the last few years for one example customers expectations have increased greatly along with very much a move from simple cheap recreational boats to complex and ever more expensive residential boats, this in it self seems to have helped create the situation.

 

We have now a weird situation where many builders are turning away orders for cheap boats because they are no longer profitable to build but can't find orders for the pricey boats they have geared themselves up to produce.

 

Quite scarily too there seems to be a constant stream of "new concept" builders who magically appear with glossy adverts/websites and offers of very short lead times who in a very short time seem to simply disappear again. I don't see where the proprietors of this kind of set up think the orders are magically going to come from, granted in the short term cash flow race having a boat at a show can give them a kick start but in the long term it is far more complex.

Edited by Gary Peacock
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What can anyone do, Gary, when they are in the position of wanting to buy a boat and are trying to find a reliable builder? Margaret and I have spoken on many occasions to Jonathan Mills of Simpsons and have felt that his would be a good firm to build our boat - in fact he was on our short list to do the build. I feel fortunate that we had not got as far as placing an order with him - but that may have been enough to keep him afloat a little longer.

 

Any suggestions as to how we can assure ourselves of the solidity of a firm before we place an order?

 

Cheers,

Angus

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What can anyone do, Gary, when they are in the position of wanting to buy a boat and are trying to find a reliable builder? Margaret and I have spoken on many occasions to Jonathan Mills of Simpsons and have felt that his would be a good firm to build our boat - in fact he was on our short list to do the build. I feel fortunate that we had not got as far as placing an order with him - but that may have been enough to keep him afloat a little longer.

 

Any suggestions as to how we can assure ourselves of the solidity of a firm before we place an order?

 

Cheers,

Angus

 

 

Buy second hand?.....in fact there always seem to be plenty of lined sailaways for sail were the buyer for what ever reason never started or finished their project

Edited by saltysplash
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just a thought,

is it not possible to order a new build from a firm that can "guarantee" that you will get a boat when all the money is paid over?

 

The boat building industry certainly appears to have a track record that must make some people think that they are actually taking a gamble with their money.

 

I can not think of any other business where the buyer takes such a risk, (having read some really sad stories on the forum).

 

Surely, it must be possible for the industry association's to come up with some sort of "bond" which would cover the builder as well as the purchaser?

 

We would then have a win win situation, buyers would have the confidence to place orders for new builds, and builders that were signed up to the arrangement would have healthy order books, attracting a growth in orders and if it means having to increase the purchase price of the goods I'm sure there are many people that with hindsight, would have paid the extra to secure a boat after paying out tens of thousands!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What can anyone do, Gary, when they are in the position of wanting to buy a boat and are trying to find a reliable builder? Margaret and I have spoken on many occasions to Jonathan Mills of Simpsons and have felt that his would be a good firm to build our boat - in fact he was on our short list to do the build. I feel fortunate that we had not got as far as placing an order with him - but that may have been enough to keep him afloat a little longer.

 

Any suggestions as to how we can assure ourselves of the solidity of a firm before we place an order?

 

Cheers,

Angus

 

I agree with Salty. Get a good second hand boat that you can then have refitted as needs be. Probably a cheaper option, too!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sad to relate that Simpsons boats of Stroud have gone bust. I don`t think many customers have suffered too badly ( may be wrong ) but others have , including Craftmaster.

Phil

Not the first time that the company has got into difficulties I believe. The original owner, Paul Simpson, has been out of the frame for a long time now.

 

Hope you're not too badly affected, Phil.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What can anyone do, Gary, when they are in the position of wanting to buy a boat and are trying to find a reliable builder? Margaret and I have spoken on many occasions to Jonathan Mills of Simpsons and have felt that his would be a good firm to build our boat - in fact he was on our short list to do the build. I feel fortunate that we had not got as far as placing an order with him - but that may have been enough to keep him afloat a little longer.

 

Any suggestions as to how we can assure ourselves of the solidity of a firm before we place an order?

 

Cheers,

Angus

 

There isn't really any full proof way, I think even some the big names aren't enjoying the current climate at the moment. I think you have to weigh up your risks carefully loosing a small deposit is one thing loosing lots of up front payments or the boat is another.

 

Remember most boat builders as a business aren't worth much at all, assets of under £10K would probably be enough investment to build boats this along with usually leased propities give the proprietor the option to walk away without much loss if things get tough.

 

Because of being able to operate in this way the customer very much finances their own build and this is where you get the biggest chance to get burnt.

 

Very few builders have the working capital to finance all their builds to completion before receiving full payment from the customer but all builders should at least be capable of funding the build to the next stage of completion, in this way the builder carries the risk and if they get into trouble you should always own what you have actually paid for so far.

 

You should never be paying for what you have not received.

We adopted a policy a few years ago because we mainly build expensive boats of having more than the usual three payments this allows for the payments made to more easily reflect the stage of completion and therefore ownership of the build so far while keeping control of our cash flow too.

 

This way of operating effectively prevents the situation that often occurs when builders are struggling where your payments can effectively by being made in advance actually end up financing someone else's build.

 

Hope that helps a bit but really it comes down to being very careful with your money, loosing a deposit or ending up with a part built boat that you have to have completed elsewhere is bad but paying out money that simply vanishes with little or no return is far worse.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just a thought,

is it not possible to order a new build from a firm that can "guarantee" that you will get a boat when all the money is paid over?

 

The boat building industry certainly appears to have a track record that must make some people think that they are actually taking a gamble with their money.

 

I can not think of any other business where the buyer takes such a risk, (having read some really sad stories on the forum).

 

Surely, it must be possible for the industry association's to come up with some sort of "bond" which would cover the builder as well as the purchaser?

 

We would then have a win win situation, buyers would have the confidence to place orders for new builds, and builders that were signed up to the arrangement would have healthy order books, attracting a growth in orders and if it means having to increase the purchase price of the goods I'm sure there are many people that with hindsight, would have paid the extra to secure a boat after paying out tens of thousands!

 

That would be the ideal situation and the BMF/CBA would probably welcome such a solution.

 

However we have a problem there are various European/UK laws involved in boatbuilding that incur expense and complication, the UK Government makes little or no effort to in reality actually enforce these laws.

 

If a builder becomes a member of the BMF/CBA (Industry trade association) they then become obliged to follow a code of practise that says they have to comply with UK law and maybe at some time in the future be subject to mandatory verification.

 

This to many builders is not a prospect to be welcomed because they have been happily breaking the law or "cooking" the paperwork for the last ten years so.

 

If you were in their position would you become involved with a trade association that is going to involve them coming clean and increasing costs/decreasing profits to remedy the situation?

 

The reality is that the average boater is very easy to part with their beer tokens and until Mr & Mrs Billy Boater take a bit more responsibility the boatbuilders will still be wearing the cowboy boots and six shooters! :lol:

Edited by Gary Peacock
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The reality is that the average boater is very easy to part with their beer tokens and until Mr & Mrs Billy Boater take a bit more responsibility the boatbuilders will still be wearing the cowboy boots and six shooters! :lol:

Probably a correct observation. The trouble is that most people do not get involved in any other transaction like buying a new boat before it is built and they approach this in much the same way as buying a car or any other expensive consumer item. I would also consider buying a new build is more fraught than buying a new house from one of the larger builders. OK buying from a smaller developer building 1 or 2 houses can be risky unless you are buying at the almost complete stage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Probably a correct observation. The trouble is that most people do not get involved in any other transaction like buying a new boat before it is built and they approach this in much the same way as buying a car or any other expensive consumer item. I would also consider buying a new build is more fraught than buying a new house from one of the larger builders. OK buying from a smaller developer building 1 or 2 houses can be risky unless you are buying at the almost complete stage.

 

The big problem is that purchasers develop a close relationship with the builder of a house/boat or extension and then liberties are all to often taken.

 

People also do not cost into their purchases the expense of taking good professional advice - in the case of houses, architects/surveyors to check and certify work and in the case of boat building a well qualified marine surveyor to similarly certify work.

 

Small housebuilders,like large developers will rarely ask for 'stage' payments as funding normally comes from Banks (discussions normally used to involve large lunches), stage payments are normally for 'self build' projects.

 

Everything is cyclic, we are seeing a repeat of events of the late 80's / early 90's, especially with regards to the 'mushroom' boatbuilders, remember when parting up with the boodle for a pile of rusting steel (whether or not it is arranged in orderly pieces) make sure ownership is transferred to you, suitably certified and documented.

 

I agree with the comments about buying second hand - there are some tremendously good buys around.

 

ALBI

Edited by LEO
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If a boatblder is BMF registered, they should be using the contract to it's full extent, unfortunately there are those who "adjust"it to suit themselves. The contract is available on the web, or from BMF, so check you have it in it's intirety. If strictly kept to, then ownership of all build materials and parts are to the customer, and the build should be insured in their name as well as the builders (at the builders expense where charge is made).

As I have commented before, ALL good builders should be overseen automatically by an external, objective surveyor. If your builder is not doing this anyway, you should find a reputable surveyor to do so, from the start of the build. If the builder objects,.....walk away.......why should he object?

Final payment should be a decent lump of the cost, paid after completion and trial, in my opinion.

There are, as has been said, many mushrooming builders, often seen at shows once only! Find someone with a full order book, and previous HAPPY customers, who will chat to you about their experiences with the builder! Quality and peace of mind are worth waiting for! Often, the better builders are not the ones with the glossy brochures, sales staff, and copious amounts of Pimms!!!!

Roll on the BMF ensuring full verification of their member builders!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Buy secondhand, there's never a shortage of stalled sailaway projects about.

 

If you want a professional, new-build look, you can always give the boat to a boat-fitter, to finish to your taste.

 

Seconded (or thirded, or whatever). Given that a new boat depreciates by (say) about half its value in ten years, you're likely to be far better off as a second owner, with the boat bought subject to survey. For one thing, the teething faults will have been ironed out. For another, if there are aspects you don't like once you have used the boat for a while, you can afford to change them. I doubt that many buyers know exactly what they want before the event: far better to find out what you can live with, and what you can't, in real life.

 

No business has an unalienable right to exist, whether it's a boat builder, a greengrocer's shop, a bank or whatever. This is how market forces operate. If a firm is better off not building boats than building them, why build?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seconded (or thirded, or whatever). Given that a new boat depreciates by (say) about half its value in ten years, you're likely to be far better off as a second owner, with the boat bought subject to survey. For one thing, the teething faults will have been ironed out. For another, if there are aspects you don't like once you have used the boat for a while, you can afford to change them. I doubt that many buyers know exactly what they want before the event: far better to find out what you can live with, and what you can't, in real life.

 

No business has an unalienable right to exist, whether it's a boat builder, a greengrocer's shop, a bank or whatever. This is how market forces operate. If a firm is better off not building boats than building them, why build?

 

I had heard that simpsons had merged with Big Fish narrowboats .?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don't know but it was a separate venture before Simpsons folded so strictly speaking isn't related.

 

Lots of directors are directors of multiple companies it's very common.

 

 

I never very keen when accounts run companys let alone ones they own

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I never very keen when accounts run companys let alone ones they own

If accounts departments don't run companies, companies go bust.

There are only three things you have to do to run a successful company.

 

1. get work

2. do work

3. get paid.

 

You cannot exist without all three. Especially the last one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If a boatblder is BMF registered, they should be using the contract to it's full extent, unfortunately there are those who "adjust"it to suit themselves. The contract is available on the web, or from BMF, so check you have it in it's intirety. If strictly kept to, then ownership of all build materials and parts are to the customer, and the build should be insured in their name as well as the builders (at the builders expense where charge is made).

As I have commented before, ALL good builders should be overseen automatically by an external, objective surveyor. If your builder is not doing this anyway, you should find a reputable surveyor to do so, from the start of the build. If the builder objects,.....walk away.......why should he object?

Final payment should be a decent lump of the cost, paid after completion and trial, in my opinion.

There are, as has been said, many mushrooming builders, often seen at shows once only! Find someone with a full order book, and previous HAPPY customers, who will chat to you about their experiences with the builder! Quality and peace of mind are worth waiting for! Often, the better builders are not the ones with the glossy brochures, sales staff, and copious amounts of Pimms!!!!

Roll on the BMF ensuring full verification of their member builders!

 

 

I agree with what Ally say's, but while we wait for BMF to get a proper handle on this how difficult would it be for us to have a Forum on CWDF's that would be specific to Boat Builders.

 

I am sure there are many happy owners who have had a good experience having had their boat built, they might want to share with prospective purchasers, we all know that many "newbies" to boating come to the forums for advice and information.

 

There may also be forum members that have not had such a good experience, their stories should also be heard!

 

I have seen many times on threads where people/businesses were not named for fear of litigation.

 

Having taken advice, I am told that the forum owner (Jon) would not/could not be held libel in any way for views expressed by others... so long as the forum has a "statement" to that effect posted for ALL to see.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem is that BMF/CBA members make up a very small percentage of boatbuilders.

 

While they have some good thoughts on the way forward you only have to look at the CBA's intended mandatory Code of Practise, we have been building to this now for three years it was only supposed to be voluntary for the first year but is still not mandatory. So for three years on top of the expense of our legal obligations we have had the further expense of complying with a non mandatory code that other members have chosen to ignore.

 

Boatbuilders do not like change or further expense and unfortunately trade organisations run by boatbuilders tend to head on the course that the members wish the CBA CoP illustrates this.

 

It really comes down to the boaters to bring about change, but boaters are a strange breed and often bring on their own problems.

 

I have lost count of the number of times I have been asked to be creative with the VAT or do you do cash jobs.

 

Quite a number of well known incidents have involved customers entering into relationships with boatbuilders based on this kind of deal but obviously these can't be mentioned by either party when it gets messy.

 

The Recreational Craft Directive is a consumer trading law that is intended to protect purchases, but most boaters will happily purchase a boat that does not comply if it saves a few quid.

 

Customer power could make things change but I doubt that boaters will change things if it results in increased costs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.