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New signs on locks


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Around here thay also say "keep clear of cill" (oe something like that).

 

About half the Marsworth filight have been fitted, so presumably there's no need to keep away from the cill in the other locks ?

 

Another total waste of licence payer's money, unfortunately.

 

(Note the positions of the cills are already all marked at the sides of the locks, anyway).

 

They are appearing everywhere! similar notices were being affixed to the Napton flight as I came through last week but strangely they are being fixed to the inner side of the top gate balance beam - so not visible to the steerer when going downhill! Also the notices say something like "keep well forward of the cill markers" but on at least one of the locks there were no cill markers! :lol:

 

If a few signs save a life then it has to be worth it!

 

Agreed and, unlike many "Health and Safety" signs, the ones that I have seen are effective without being unnecessarily out of keeping.

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they are being fixed to the inner side of the top gate balance beam - so not visible to the steerer when going downhill!

Yes,

 

But of course if they were on the "outer" side of the balance beam, a steerer would not see them at all, as the gate would be open as they go in.

 

They do seem to rely on whoever is in charge of the boat reading a notice they have already passed. I'm not convinced many will.

 

There cannot possibly be a statistic for how many boats get "cilled", as most people will dig themselves out of it without BW involvement. (Another bent or dislocated rudder back at the hire base, for example).

 

BW will only know about serious ones, like sinkings, that require their intervention.

 

So taking up another of Mike's points, I doubt any meaningful statistic will be possible about whether they help reduce mishaps or not.

 

Are there less problems since painted "length of cill" markers were first painted on coping stones - again I doubt it, but can't prove it one way or the other.

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But of course if they were on the "outer" side of the balance beam, a steerer would not see them at all, as the gate would be open as they go in.

 

They may be more effective if they were affixed to the inside of the bottom gate balance beams, thereby providing a constant reminder to the steerer to keep his boat forward in the lock when going downhill - even if the steerer's only motive for so doing was to get near enough to the notice to read what it says . . .

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I think you are quite likely confusing it with the group of disabled people who drowned in a lock because the boat got hung from it's bows ?

 

You may well be right, but there are plenty of incidents involving boats getting caught on the cill, whether they cause death or not. They're BW's locks and if they see fit to put up warning signs for the benefit of the uninitiated that's fine by me. They're the ones who have to spend time and resources craning boats out of locks - not us, so perhaps on a cost/benefit basis it could be worthwhile?

 

Personally I don't understand the instant knee-jerk negativity. This isn't going to end with scores of warning signs next to each lock as one post suggested - and we all know it. If you don't mind me saying, that's a ridiculous Daily Mail type of reaction.

Edited by blackrose
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They may be more effective if they were affixed to the inside of the bottom gate balance beams, thereby providing a constant reminder to the steerer to keep his boat forward in the lock when going downhill - even if the steerer's only motive for so doing was to get near enough to the notice to read what it says . . .

Yes,

 

But if we are talking about people blissfully unaware that locks have cills, because the hire company hasn't drummed it into them, I'm struggling to design a sign attached to the bottom gates that would clearly spell out that the danger was at the other end of the lock.

 

But I'll bang on no longer. Apart from Allan, most people seem to be giving them at least a cautious welcome, so perhaps I'm wrong.

 

I can't agree that they are being done in a "non gaudy" way though - the ones around here are pretty luminous.

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Personally I don't understand the instant knee-jerk negativity. This isn't going to end with scores of warning signs next to each lock as one post suggested - and we all know it. If you don't mind me saying, that's a ridiculous Daily Mail type of reaction.

I still don't believe that a sign will help; it could make things worse, as an accident occurs while someone's attention is distracted by the sign. We will just have to wait and see, but I hate the way signs are springing up everywhere, to the point where nobody looks at any of them any more. Take this example from a lock on the river Nene for example:

 

Dsc02122r.jpg

 

I bet if you asked a dozen people who had just come through the lock to list the warnings that had been shown to them, not one of them could do so.

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In the end, most warning signs are not there to protect those who may have accidents they are there to protect the "owners" of the lock against claims.

 

I'll bet they will be put on EVERY lock even those within flights for that reason.

 

Still if even ONE person reads them and this reduces the risk of a "cilling" then I cannot see the harm.

 

Sadly as Keeping Up said, most people ignore signs after a while.

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Take this example from a lock on the river Nene for example:

 

Dsc02122r.jpg

 

I bet if you asked a dozen people who had just come through the lock to list the warnings that had been shown to them, not one of them could do so.

I'd have liked to think you just doctored a photo to come up with that gem.

 

Sadly, and rather remarkably, I can see it's genuine.

 

No space there to add a cill warning, though.

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They may be more effective if they were affixed to the inside of the bottom gate balance beams, thereby providing a constant reminder to the steerer to keep his boat forward in the lock when going downhill - even if the steerer's only motive for so doing was to get near enough to the notice to read what it says . . .

 

True but the way they are fitted at the moment, they should be seen as the steerer enters the lock.

 

The sign is above the area of danger, when the gates are open. :lol:

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Saw the signs for the first time last weekend on the L&L.

 

I suppose they are only as untraditional as the 'Gate Paddles Cause Strong Flows' signs which appeared some years ago.

 

The cills are a hazard but as other people have said, only one of many on the canals - look at the tragic swing bridge accident a couple of weeks ago - far worse than any lock incident in recent years.

 

I'd be interested to know how much they have all cost - where's Eugene's replacements........??

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I still don't believe that a sign will help; it could make things worse, as an accident occurs while someone's attention is distracted by the sign. We will just have to wait and see, but I hate the way signs are springing up everywhere, to the point where nobody looks at any of them any more. Take this example from a lock on the river Nene for example:

 

Dsc02122r.jpg

 

I bet if you asked a dozen people who had just come through the lock to list the warnings that had been shown to them, not one of them could do so.

 

Ok I agree that is overkill, but you've come up with the most extreme example you can find to make your point. That doesn't necessarily mean there should be no signs.

 

If as you say, signs make things more dangerous because people's attention is distracted, then road signs would be the biggest culprit. Yet a lot of work is done to show how many lives they save. If they are distractions then it's because they're badly placed, but again that's not really an argument for no signs.

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Ok I agree that is overkill, but you've come up with the most extreme example you can find to make your point. That doesn't necessarily mean there should be no signs.

 

If as you say, signs make things more dangerous because people's attention is distracted, then road signs would be the biggest culprit. Yet a lot of work is done to show how many lives they save. If they are distractions then it's because they're badly placed, but again that's not really an argument for no signs.

 

Except that this is not an extreme example, they are on every River Nene lock. It would only take one BW bod to make an edict, as it would appear to have happened with the cill warning signs, to make sinilar signs to appear at every lock in the country!

 

Tim

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My OH posted a topic after we got back from a trip up the Lee and Stort.

 

One day, at several of the locks we came to, we encountered the same two BW guys emptying the lock, and dangling various measuring devices in.

 

They said they had been sent to measure position of cills in every lock.

 

They said a senior BW manager had been made aware by a hire firm owner of just how many boats were coming back with apparent cill damage, and that he wanted something done about it.

 

Apparently this BW manager had said in a meeting "Why do we have to have these cills at all - why can't we just remove them from all locks...." (No comment :lol: ).

 

The BW workmen didn't I believe know how the information they were collating could be used, they were just doing what they had been told to do.

 

My hunch is the new signs have nothing to do with a tragic accident, nor even a reported near miss involving injury or death. My guess is they are a knee-jerk reaction by BW after feedback from hire boat operators about damaged boats.

 

Question:

 

If we assume that these signs are largely to warn hire boaters who have not been properly instructed, and that most owner boaters are already aware of lock cill dangers, then why put them on every lock on the network ? Why not put them (say) 10 (downhill) locks in either direction of known hire bases ? If a hirer hasn't cottoned on after 10 (downhill) locks with warnings, are they likely to at all ?

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And how obvious to a hire boater is the sign? Not very I suggest - it's on the inside edge of the upper lock beam. Someone driving the boat would only see it if they turn to look behind them after the lock gates are closed behind them - in which case surely they're already aware of the dangers behind their boat?

 

Perhaps a sign near the front of the lock telling them to keep their boat forward would be more helpful?

 

I dunno.

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Clearly all this is due to the expansion of a department within BW - (possibly called 'Signs - and erection' )- although they won't have this written on their door yet.

 

It would be pure speculation on my part (and therefore I am only stating a possibility - not fact!) that the manufacturer of such signs, having won what could be a very lucrative contract, may possibly have some 'arrangements' with BW, or individuals within BW - that would encourage further signage to be required.

 

 

As I said, - this is only speculation on my part - -

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Of course, if the instruction for descending a lock was "Keep your boat in forward gear, dead slow.", then there would never be a "cilling" incident.

 

No need for signs, just properly maintained bottom gates (I knew there was a flaw in my argument).

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Of course, if the instruction for descending a lock was "Keep your boat in forward gear, dead slow.", then there would never be a "cilling" incident.

 

No need for signs, just properly maintained bottom gates (I knew there was a flaw in my argument).

 

Of course hire companies would have to fit fenders that couldn't get jammed in gaps like those between balance beam and gate.

 

The "Drum Major" accident where 4 people died would not have happened had the boat not been against the lower gates.

 

(Yes I know proper gate design, and correctly attached fenders can largely avoid such risks).

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I find having a knackered front fender that's hanging off by a rusty sheared through piece of chain works very well - it releases upwards when caught on a lock gate and bends round corners sometimes just to keep us amused. (We're more likely to have a glancing blow than a direct hit and there's a just a 50/50 chance of the fender bending towards the correct side of the boat in such an incident). :lol:

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Except that this is not an extreme example, they are on every River Nene lock. It would only take one BW bod to make an edict, as it would appear to have happened with the cill warning signs, to make sinilar signs to appear at every lock in the country!

 

Tim

 

I think you're getting confused between the words extreme and rare. It is indeed an extreme example of sineage gone mad, but that doesn't mean that there should be no signs at all.

 

Of course a BW 'bod' has to make a decision. What do you want - a referendum?

 

Quite honestly I really don't see how a sign spoils anyone's enjoyment of the canals. If they were building office blocks or multi-storey car parks next to the locks I could understand but this just seems to be more petty anti-BW bickering.

Edited by blackrose
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Quite honestly I really don't see how a sign spoils anyone's enjoyment of the canals.

 

It would be too extreme to say "spoils enjoyment of canals".

But when BW play the "heritage" card at every turn, (usually as a reason for inactivity), then slapping bright yellow signs on the most visible part of locks is clearly "not heritage"

 

but this just seems to be more petty anti-BW bickering.

I object to it principally because I see it as a pointless waste of money, and believe the money could be far better spent on maintenance, and correcting dangerous features that they are aware of, but chose to ignore.

 

You may say "it's only a couple of signs per lock", but how much money, and how many man hours does that equate to, over the entire canal network? They are fixed either over the cill, or over the water, and often to metal not wood. I can't imagine it's been done by hanging over the edge of a balance beam with electric drill and screwdriver. Either a boat has been used, or some kind of scaffold erected, I'd say. Whichever it is, it's expensive, and a gang isn't going to get many locks done in a working day.

 

I look forward to the first published picture of a "cilled" boat, with a pair of these signs as a backdrop.

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I thought they were being fitted to the balance beam, so you could fix them when the gate was closed.

Ours are fixed to the part of the balance beam that is over the gate, above the cill itself.

 

When the gates are shut, it's over the cill, when open they are alongside the lock edge, facing the water.

 

I've not seen any on the projecting part of the balance beam (yet!)

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Obviously they are not fitting in a 'standard position'

 

Surprise!!!! :lol:

We are about to go off on a fairly major expedition, if all engine problems prove to be fixed.

 

Maybe I'll try and log just how many variants of the sign there are, and places they are attached to.

 

......................................As long as I don't drift back on to any cills whilst taking my pictures!

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