The Black Prince Owners Club...

[jetzi]

We have a Black Prince and would love to join the club!

 

 

This is Butterfly (original name - they seem to follow a pattern). She is a 65' NB commissioned on 8th November 1999. We're the fourth owners since Black Prince themselves, who sold Butterfly to a Mrs G Roberts of Oldbury on 8th December 2003. She sold her to a Jacqueline Comley on 2012-06-19. Mrs Comley sold her to a Mr Gormsen on 1st April 2015. And we bought her in September 2018.

 

This is what is on CanalPlan:

 

Butterfly Built by Black Prince - Length : 19.812 metres ( 65 feet ) - Beam : 2.083 metres ( 6 feet 10 inches ) - Draft : 0.61 metres ( 2 feet ). Metal hull N/A power of 37 HP. Registered with Canal & River Trust number 504178 as a Powered Motor Boat.  ( Last updated on Wednesday 22nd May 2013 )

 

I had a look at the defunct www.blackprinceowners.co.uk website on the wayback machine. Judging from the picture on the linked page, the length and year I'm guessing she is a Duchess 6 class Style 2. Can anyone confirm this for me or have any more info about this class? 

Quote

Duchess 6.3 & 6.4 Style 2. (Year 1999 & 2000 build only) 66ft 6/8 berth:
A number of Duchess 6 berths were built over these two years which had a rear layout similar to the Duchess 6 first style (see previous page) but with a galley layout as the Lautrec above and a forward facing ‘L’ shape dinette/double with the central forward door that all 1999 build onwards feature. These all had the seperately made panels described at the top of the page and the noticeable roof join. All were retired by the end of 2003 to make way for a 69ft Duchess 6 berth.

 

First Black Prince question for you - does anyone know what the bow water tank looks like? I'm looking into upgrading it and would love to know what the design is under that foredeck, without having to cut a hole in it.

 

I hope to hear from a few more Black Prince owners to chat about their idiosyncracies!

Edited April 21, 2019 by ivan&alice

[carlt]

7 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

 

I hope to hear from a few more Black Prince owners to chat about their idiosyncracies!

 

I'm afraid I can't help you with specific black Prince queries but welcome to the forum and if you stick around you'll find that it is all boaters who have their little idiosyncrasies, not just Black Prince owners (some more than others). 

[Sea Dog]

9 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

First Black Prince question for you - does anyone know what the bow water tank looks like? I'm looking into upgrading it and ...

Upgrading it? What does that mean - filling it with gin?

 

More seriously, what's up with it? Too small? What's the capacity?

[jetzi]

2 hours ago, carlt said:

I'm afraid I can't help you with specific black Prince queries but welcome to the forum and if you stick around you'll find that it is all boaters who have their little idiosyncrasies, not just Black Prince owners (some more than others). 

Thanks! Definitely some common idiosyncracies to boaters. There might be some idiosyncrasies common to the Black Princes, though

 

37 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

what's up with it? Too small? What's the capacity?

 

I have a thread specifically about that, if you're interested!

 

[tree monkey]

My other half has an ex black Prince, she doesn't come into the forum much any more but maybe if I shout she will pop along 

@BlueStringPudding

 

Ohh just noticed she started the thread many moons ago in the dark days before she met me

Edited April 22, 2019 by tree monkey

[Patrick_C]

13 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

I hope to hear from a few more Black Prince owners to chat about their idiosyncracies!

Hello.  We are owners of another of the 'experimental' Duchess 2000 Black Prince boats - Bumblebee, from their 'insect' period :D.

Ours was sold on and the interior completely changed (including removal of the giant waste tank) by two previous liveaboard owners before we bought it in 2012.  There are certainly some idiosyncracies- the through bilge is a 'feature' as is the heavy engine hatch (presumably designed to stop holidaymakers getting in!).  But also some very positive features not least the fact that it's built like a tank - the vertical plate in the bow appears to have been inspired by ancient Greek warships.  Like you I have wondered about the water tank (I am not sure if you can access it through the front wall below the well deck, never dug around in there) but since it seems to be OK I've not (yet) explored below the deck.  We are now on the Stort so may see you there!

Edited April 22, 2019 by Patrick_C

[mrsmelly]

14 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

We have a Black Prince and would love to join the club!

 

 

This is Butterfly (original name - they seem to follow a pattern). She is a 65' NB commissioned on 8th November 1999. We're the fourth owners since Black Prince themselves, who sold Butterfly to a Mrs G Roberts of Oldbury on 8th December 2003. She sold her to a Jacqueline Comley on 2012-06-19. Mrs Comley sold her to a Mr Gormsen on 1st April 2015. And we bought her in September 2018.

 

This is what is on CanalPlan:

 

Butterfly Built by Black Prince - Length : 19.812 metres ( 65 feet ) - Beam : 2.083 metres ( 6 feet 10 inches ) - Draft : 0.61 metres ( 2 feet ). Metal hull N/A power of 37 HP. Registered with Canal & River Trust number 504178 as a Powered Motor Boat.  ( Last updated on Wednesday 22nd May 2013 )

 

I had a look at the defunct www.blackprinceowners.co.uk website on the wayback machine. Judging from the picture on the linked page, the length and year I'm guessing she is a Duchess 6 class Style 2. Can anyone confirm this for me or have any more info about this class? 

 

First Black Prince question for you - does anyone know what the bow water tank looks like? I'm looking into upgrading it and would love to know what the design is under that foredeck, without having to cut a hole in it.

 

I hope to hear from a few more Black Prince owners to chat about their idiosyncracies!

Whilst its a Black prince the shell was more than likely built by John Pinder, is it a Pinder shell?

[Patrick_C]

3 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Whilst its a Black prince the shell was more than likely built by John Pinder, is it a Pinder shell?

BP received SMART funding from the government to try and develop 'modular' shells using standard parts and as I understand it they made these themselves.  After a couple of runs, including the 'Duchess 2000' models they went back to using Pinder shells.  You can tell the SMART boats from the 'overlapped' roofs.

 

NB  ... after 20 years the seals between the overlapping roof and sides may need attention and a joosh of sealant!

[Sea Dog]

9 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

 

I have a thread specifically about that, if you're interested!

Ah, so you do and thanks for the link! I was wondering just  how small your water tank was that you felt the need to go through the fairly major work to add more tankage. It seemed odd that Black Prince would make such an error in their build as inadequate fresh water capacity, but I see you have 100 gallons or 500 litres, either of which seems pretty much ample as others have pointed out. I have 450 litres and the only impact the need for water has on my boating is regarding trim when she's getting a bit light up forward and I'm encountering low bridges. Otherwise, I find 450 litres means I can water entirely when convenient rather than be driven by any shortage. I'd be inclined to save the money and effort for something you really need - if you haven't found that yet, it will be along shortly!

 

Nice to hear that you're so pleased with your chosen boat - it sounds like you found yourself a good un! 

 

 

[carlt]

It seems strange that they can store a year's worth of piss and poo but only a week's worth of water. 

[jetzi]

9 hours ago, tree monkey said:

My other half has an ex black Prince, she doesn't come into the forum much any more but maybe if I shout she will pop along 

@BlueStringPudding

 

Ohh just noticed she started the thread many moons ago in the dark days before she met me

Haha, very grateful for the thread. Hopefully she will have something to add. What year / class is hers?

 

8 hours ago, Patrick_C said:

Hello.  We are owners of another of the 'experimental' Duchess 2000 Black Prince boats - Bumblebee, from their 'insect' period :D.

Ours was sold on and the interior completely changed (including removal of the giant waste tank) by two previous liveaboard owners before we bought it in 2012.  There are certainly some idiosyncracies- the through bilge is a 'feature' as is the heavy engine hatch (presumably designed to stop holidaymakers getting in!).  But also some very positive features not least the fact that it's built like a tank - the vertical plate in the bow appears to have been inspired by ancient Greek warships.  Like you I have wondered about the water tank (I am not sure if you can access it through the front wall below the well deck, never dug around in there) but since it seems to be OK I've not (yet) explored below the deck.  We are now on the Stort so may see you there!

Hi @Patrick_C great to meet you! You lucked out with the "Bumblebee" insect, so much better than "Butterfly"!

 

Our through bilge was thoroughly plugged by the previous owner with sillicone. He mentioned it to me saying that when I next need a BSC I may need to unplug it. I checked on the BSC website and I can't see anything prohibiting what he's done. I guess it's because the cabin bilge is now not protected by the engine bay bilge pump. I purchased a Whale Supersub 650 and a auto switch to place in the cabin bilge, but I haven't installed it yet. We had some moisture down there and I'm a little concerned about the condition of the bilge given that I don't want to lift our floorboards. I'm going to wait until we get her surveyed in July before we jump to any conclusions.

 

The engine hatch is treacherous. Every time I'm down there I have visions of that thing falling down and decapitating me. I am thinking about installing pistons like on a car boot to assist opening and closing - and a hasp-and-staple so I can padlock it closed. Another idiosyncracy I think I have spotted: the gas locker, storage locker on the bow, and the "weed hatch compartment" all lack steel lids/covers. We have an assortment of plywood covers instead. I thought it was just ours, that perhaps a previous owner had lost them along the way, but I saw a photo of an old Black Prince still as a hire boat, which also had a ply cover. I want to have lockable steel covers made for her. @Patrick_C do your various compartments have steel covers?

 

But yes, she is extremely strong and the bumpers have been useful on more than one occasion! Perhaps I'll remove the chipboard underneath the well deck and see if I can get at the water tank. If I do I'll let you know what I find. And I'll keep an eye out for Bumblebee on the Stort. We just passed Louise, a purple 69' 2004 Black Prince on the Lee. Starting to recognise them on the water!

 

9 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Whilst its a Black prince the shell was more than likely built by John Pinder, is it a Pinder shell?

I don't know. The builder is listed as simply Black Prince. Any ideas how I could find out?

 

9 hours ago, Patrick_C said:

BP received SMART funding from the government to try and develop 'modular' shells using standard parts and as I understand it they made these themselves.  After a couple of runs, including the 'Duchess 2000' models they went back to using Pinder shells.  You can tell the SMART boats from the 'overlapped' roofs.

 

NB  ... after 20 years the seals between the overlapping roof and sides may need attention and a joosh of sealant!

This is fascinating! We definitely are one of the SMART boats as we have the overlapping roof. Why on earth would the government fund narrowboat designs? We were told by the previous owner that the overlapping roof was for ventilation, and that unusually for narrowboats this boat didn't have any problems with condensation. We don't have a single mushroom vent. So I'm not sure they are supposed to be sealed?

3 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

Otherwise, I find 450 litres means I can water entirely when convenient rather than be driven by any shortage. I'd be inclined to save the money and effort for something you really need - if you haven't found that yet, it will be along shortly!

Water is our limiting factor. We've never managed to get through even half our 270 litre diesel tank in 2 months. We have plenty of space for coal. And even though our enormous Black Prince poo tank was removed by a previous owner, our two cassettes last us 3 weeks (with some pub visits, of course). Water, converesly, lasts us about 10-14 days when being painfully conservative, and we don't have a washing machine. I realise that we are one of the lucky ones and our tank is pretty big, but we also want to water when convenient rather than be driven by shortage. There's plenty we need, but after many months afloat, this (for us) is our biggest pain point of life aboard. Everyone has different priorities. We don't have 240V and we don't miss it, but many people are horrified by that. For us, water is our biggest concern, so why shouldn't we address it?

 

2 hours ago, carlt said:

It seems strange that they can store a year's worth of piss and poo but only a week's worth of water. 

Yeah - the Black Prince poo tanks are legendary. We still have the vestigial pump out ports but Butterly was converted to a cassette toilet and her poo tank removed long before we took her over. Thank goodness for that - I'm dead set against pump outs!

[carlt]

I think blue string pudding (the OP) converted her poo tank into an indoor swimming pool. 

[Patrick_C]

Why did the Government fund narrowboat design?  The Department of Trade and Industry as it then was introduced a bunch of initiatives to get Research and Development expertise into small and medium businesses, who didn't have the capacity to do it themselves and were losing out as a result.  A lot of the beneficiaries were small firms with production processes which could be automated in some way (a lot of the them involved robotic devices for fabrication, for example).  My guess is that someone savvy at BP saw the opportunity to tap into these  funds, possibly to do things they already wanted to do with their fleets, and some of the processes have continued to be used.

 

The roof join:  Have a rootle around with a screwdriver and you'll probably find the original seal of caulked rope.  Where this dries out, it needs resealing.  I suspect the argument that it was supposed to ventilate is a bit of creative sales talk.  Lack of mushrooms is surprising, we have a full run of them, but they might have been put in later.  We do have to deal with condensation in the winter, but then again if these were built as summer cruisers then BP might have dispensed with the ventilation - there clearly wasn't much insulation put in either when built.

 

I'd have a look at the cabin bilge to see what's in there, I'd either want a pump or the openings to the engine bilge unsealed.

 

We did indeed replace the front locker 'covers' with hinged steel lids (see pic). Not the weed hatch one but that's a job to do.  The manky bits of unsecured plywood didn't inspire confidence when jumping off the front of the boat. As for the engine hatch, I know it is probably overkill, but I usually sling a ratchet strap around it to secure it to the back rail when I'm working in there for any length of time.  

 

There are plenty of BP boats out there and while many of them have been renamed, rebuilt, or otherwise enhanced, you can't really do that much to disguise them!

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2019 by Patrick_C

[Sea Dog]

10 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

Water, converesly, lasts us about 10-14 days when being painfully conservative, and we don't have a washing machine. 

I'm not sure if there's a lot of you onboard or whether your definition of "painfully conservative" use of water is the same as mine, but it's really hard work to not pass water taps many times in that period. Spend your money how you like, and perhaps it's just me, but this seems a bit of an odd issue to cite as your "biggest concern" when there will be others coming along.  How arduous is replenishing clean fresh water every couple of weeks? 

[mrsmelly]

26 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

I'm not sure if there's a lot of you onboard or whether your definition of "painfully conservative" use of water is the same as mine, but it's really hard work to not pass water taps many times in that period. Spend your money how you like, and perhaps it's just me, but this seems a bit of an odd issue to cite as your "biggest concern" when there will be others coming along.  How arduous is replenishing clean fresh water every couple of weeks? 

When cruising we do it every couple of days, its even easier then. Fills up quickly so not waiting utilising tap for ages and less risk of running out coming across a bust tap for instance.  On a short cruise as you say even its hard to not pass at least one tap. We have always filled up on a regular basis, it makes sense.

[Dr Bob]

8 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

When cruising we do it every couple of days, its even easier then. Fills up quickly so not waiting utilising tap for ages and less risk of running out coming across a bust tap for instance.  On a short cruise as you say even its hard to not pass at least one tap. We have always filled up on a regular basis, it makes sense.

Wot he said!

Thats what we do. No point slumming it. No submarine showers unless we cant avoid it. A 15 min stop every 2 days or so.

[Nightwatch]

13 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

When cruising we do it every couple of days, its even easier then. Fills up quickly so not waiting utilising tap for ages and less risk of running out coming across a bust tap for instance.  On a short cruise as you say even its hard to not pass at least one tap. We have always filled up on a regular basis, it makes sense.

Unless you're in the K&A of course.

[haggis]

When we are thinking about where to moor overnight, if there is a water tap near bye, we fill up with water before moving to a mooring. That way we don't feel we are using boating time filling the tank. I agree with others that filling up fairly frequently saves having to spend ages at a tap filling the whole tank. I think hirers are still told to fill up every day ? 

haggis

[Sea Dog]

3 minutes ago, haggis said:

I think hirers are still told to fill up every day ? 

They seem to be told all kinds of odd things, probably to err on the safe side for the company to prevent avoidable call-outs.  We were chatting with some hirers last summer who were still running their engine long after mooring up post 8 pm.  In conversation it emerged they'd had a long day's cruise but we're running the engine because they were told they must run it for 2 hours each evening. Perhaps they'd misunderstood, but it wouldn't seem impossible to be unambiguous when giving such instructions. 

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Sea Dog said:

They seem to be told all kinds of odd things, probably to err on the safe side for the company to prevent avoidable call-outs.  We were chatting with some hirers last summer who were still running their engine long after mooring up post 8 pm.  In conversation it emerged they'd had a long day's cruise but we're running the engine because they were told they must run it for 2 hours each evening. Perhaps they'd misunderstood, but it wouldn't seem impossible to be unambiguous when giving such instructions. 

That is to re heat the water because all 6 of them had showers before going to the pub and recharge the batteries to cope with the dishwasher on after dinner

[jetzi]

13 hours ago, Patrick_C said:

My guess is that someone savvy at BP saw the opportunity to tap into these  funds, possibly to do things they already wanted to do with their fleets, and some of the processes have continued to be used.

Fascinating, thanks for this info!

 

13 hours ago, Patrick_C said:

The roof join:  Have a rootle around with a screwdriver and you'll probably find the original seal of caulked rope.  Where this dries out, it needs resealing.  I suspect the argument that it was supposed to ventilate is a bit of creative sales talk.  Lack of mushrooms is surprising

Well, does it need resealing? The overlapping roof seems quite a decent design to prevent any water ingress, and any ventilation could be a bonus, considering I have no mushrooms! I suppose an over-ventilated cabin would be expensive to heat, though. I have no idea how to check if you have an appropriate level of ventilation.

 

13 hours ago, Patrick_C said:

BP might have dispensed with the ventilation - there clearly wasn't much insulation put in either when built.

 

I'd have a look at the cabin bilge to see what's in there, I'd either want a pump or the openings to the engine bilge unsealed.

That's possible. We don't have much condensation at all in winter. We can see into the bilges in a few spots along the cabin length where the floor doesn't meet the wall (under cupboards and behind the fridge, for example) and it's generally dry and in good shape. We stick disposable nappies in there to mop up any moisture that might be rotting the bilge. I think this moisture comes from condensation.

 

13 hours ago, Patrick_C said:

We did indeed replace the front locker 'covers' with hinged steel lids (see pic). Not the weed hatch one but that's a job to do.  The manky bits of unsecured plywood didn't inspire confidence when jumping off the front of the boat. As for the engine hatch, I know it is probably overkill, but I usually sling a ratchet strap around it to secure it to the back rail when I'm working in there for any length of time.  

I'm amazingly lucky to get to talk to you before I do this exact same job. I asked the boatyard who are doing my blacking in two months' time (Uxbridge Boat Centre) and they said to weld on three steel lids and replace my leaking exhaust will take a couple of thousand pounds but they can only give me an estimate when they see the boat. Would you mind telling me how you went about getting those lids made and how much it cost you? ... And I don't think the ratchet strap around the engine hatch is overkill. I think I'll start doing the same.

 

3 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

How arduous is replenishing clean fresh water every couple of weeks? 

 

3 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

When cruising we do it every couple of days, its even easier then. Fills up quickly so not waiting utilising tap for ages and less risk of running out coming across a bust tap for instance.

 

2 hours ago, haggis said:

we fill up with water before moving to a mooring

Like I say, each to his own. I'm not going to get drawn into this conversation as it has nowt to do with Black Prince boats. But would be happy to justify myself in the other thread

[Patrick_C]

21 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

I have no idea how to check if you have an appropriate level of ventilation.

There is a minimum requirement for BSS -  based on size of space, number of unvented stoves/burners etc and from this is calculated a minimum high and low level vent area.  Look at the 'appliances' section of your BSS certificate - it should break it down.  This is not the same, of course as the level of ventilation needed to avoid condensation and draughts ... 

25 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

they said to weld on three steel lids and replace my leaking exhaust will take a couple of thousand pounds

I got the two locker lids in the pic done for about £200 all in by the resident welder (Pete) at Willowbridge near Milton Keynes.  He is very good at doing these kinds of jobs - where you are dealing with less than ideal surfaces and angles etc.   They aren't waterproof, but that wasn't needed.  If you wanted to have waterproof seals and/or locks you'd obvs. pay more.

[jetzi]

Thought this might interest some Black Prince fans. I sent Leighton at Black Prince an email to see if he had any more information about the '99 and '00 Duchess 6 SMART boats, and he said:

 

"I’ve spoken to Pete who recalls that the hulls were a pre-cut kit, assembled by a company called George Prior Engineering based in Lowestoft. The shells would be then delivered to Stoke Prior to be fitted out here. "

 

He also pointed out the following 2000 sister to Bumble Bee and Butterfly is for sale! Holly Blue 504759. Still has much of the original interior!
 

https://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/black-prince-65-cruiser-stern/601185

 

 

 

 

[Patrick_C]

2 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

Holly Blue 504759. Still has much of the original interior!

I saw it was up for sale, but hadn't realised it was so intact inside.  I have found sections of that veneer and lino lurking in cupboards, and we still have the oval mirror intact.  No mushroom vents, as in Butterfly - so maybe there was/is enough ventilation  without if you don't have too many appliances and depend only on the Eberspacher for space heating (the stove in Holly Blue must be an addition, I think?).  By the time we acquired Bumblebee a stove had been fitted, and removed, and there was a Refleks diesel stove and a gas hob fitted so our mushrooms probably accompanied their installation.

 

[BlueStringPudding]

On 21/04/2019 at 21:32, ivan&alice said:

 

 

First Black Prince question for you - does anyone know what the bow water tank looks like? I'm looking into upgrading it and would love to know what the design is under that foredeck, without having to cut a hole in it.

 

I hope to hear from a few more Black Prince owners to chat about their idiosyncracies!

Apparently integral to the hull, so others have told me. But like you, I can't see me water tank ?