Perkins Engines & Bellair Hulls - Any experience of these?

[Jim Batty]

We are first time narrowboat buyers and have just had an offer accepted on a 'perfect' boat for us. (Are we excited!) It has a Bellair Fabrications hull and a Perkins Prima 35hp engine. I'd like to know a little more about the reliability and character of the Perkins and the background of Bellair (who seem to have been building narrowboats and steel cruisers in the mid 1990s). Searching the web doesn't turn up much on either of these and a nice email to Perkins hasn't tempted any response either.

 

Anyone have any experience of the Perkins or Bellair?

[alan_fincher]

Hi Jim,

 

You'll find lots of Perkins engines about on the cut, but in nothing like the numbers of a Lister or Kubota for example.

 

Several active members of the forum have a Perkins, but I have to confess I've never heard of a Perkins Prima. Those in narrowboat use tend to have names like D3-152, or similar. (I once had a P3-152, and there's still some around). Googling for Perkins Prima, (which you have tried), seems to give a lot of hits on automotive engines, but little on boats.

 

Do you know any more about it ? 3 or 4 cylinders, for example ?

 

Similarly Bellair is a name I think I've heard of, but know nothing about. If it's the boat I think it might be, (59 foot ?), it looks very nice. The nagging doubt I have from some broker details, is a 1994 build date, but a 6/5/3 mm steel specification for the shell. By 1994 pressure to do what other builders were doing as standard meant most builders built in something like 10/6/4 mm, (or possibly 8/6/4 mm). 6/5/3 sounds quite lightweight for 1994, so you need to try and verify it's no older than that, and I'd say a hull survey becomes even more important than usual, as any loss of original steel will be more significant if starting with thinner plates in the first place.

 

Of course I may have guessed the wrong boat, and that may all be quite irrelevant !

 

Alan

[alan_fincher]

Is the engine anything like this......

 

http://www.secodi.fr/perkins/eng/pages/par...mp;moteurtype=2

 

Alan

[tosher]

We are first time narrowboat buyers and have just had an offer accepted on a 'perfect' boat for us. (Are we excited!) It has a Bellair Fabrications hull and a Perkins Prima 35hp engine. I'd like to know a little more about the reliability and character of the Perkins and the background of Bellair (who seem to have been building narrowboats and steel cruisers in the mid 1990s). Searching the web doesn't turn up much on either of these and a nice email to Perkins hasn't tempted any response either.

 

Anyone have any experience of the Perkins or Bellair?

 

Perkins engines are very common in sea going vessels and coupled to Hurth gearboxes are very reliable and robust units. In 25 years ocean cruising never had one die on me. About eight years ago we replaced a 25 year old Perkins with a new one and at that time the main agent for Perkins in the UK was Sabre Marine although I think they are now owned by Twinnings who also manufacture Volvo and Catapillar marine engines. ---- tosher

[Jim Batty]

Do you know any more about it ? 3 or 4 cylinders, for example ?

 

Similarly Bellair is a name I think I've heard of, but know nothing about. If it's the boat I think it might be, (59 foot ?), it looks very nice. The nagging doubt I have from some broker details, is a 1994 build date, but a 6/5/3 mm steel specification for the shell. By 1994 pressure to do what other builders were doing as standard meant most builders built in something like 10/6/4 mm, (or possibly 8/6/4 mm). 6/5/3 sounds quite lightweight for 1994, so you need to try and verify it's no older than that, and I'd say a hull survey becomes even more important than usual ...

 

Alan

 

Hi Alan

 

Yes, it's 4 cylinder. With a PRM Delta hydraulic gearbox. (I'm sure you've guessed the right boat!)

 

Thanks for that Secodi link. That very well could be the engine, but I'm not sure. I'll explore their site and narrow down the options. Diesels, and engines generally, are a new world to me.

 

As we're right at the beginning of the process, we still need to: look at all the receipts available for work done on the boat; do an engine trial up the cut and back; have out of water survey focusing on the hull. (We went through this process last year, with a 1983 boat with 6mm base plate, only to reject it right after the survey as the bottom pitting was fierce and internal corrosion fairly substantial. After 3 months involvement, it was really heart-breaking. It was a pretty expensive lesson, and we swore we wouldn't look at anything older than mid 90s.)

 

I originally balked at that 6mm base, and ignored the boat for about a month. But then I realised that this hull has had a 2-pack epoxy treatment and reckoned that this should give it some extra life. I got my arm into the canal and had as good a feel as possible around the stern and bow to about 6 inches beneath the bottom, and couldn't feel any major pitting at all. Because of last year's fiasco, I scrutinized below the waterline as deep as possible and can't see/feel ANY sign of rust. Which must be a good thing. But I guess it's not over until the fat lady sings (or the surveyor gives a smile).

 

I would like to know more about Bellair Fabrications though. There's a pair of Bellair boats on Jim Shead's list, both built around 1995, one a steel cruiser.

 

This feedback is really helpful. Thanks a lot.

 

Jim

 

 

 

Perkins engines are very common in sea going vessels and coupled to Hurth gearboxes are very reliable and robust units. In 25 years ocean cruising never had one die on me. About eight years ago we replaced a 25 year old Perkins with a new one and at that time the main agent for Perkins in the UK was Sabre Marine although I think they are now owned by Twinnings who also manufacture Volvo and Catapillar marine engines. ---- tosher

 

Thanks Tosher

 

I like the sound of '25 year old Perkins'!

 

Jim

[Dominic M]

I suspect that the shell is 8mm bottomed. Is the 6mm info based on previous survey information?

 

There are Perkins engines and there are Perkins engines. The Prima (I think) was used in Rovers and Land Rovers for a time. It is an overhead cam engine, so watch out for a worn timing belt. I've never seen one installed in a narrowboat although some sea going craft have them apparently. You would do well to check on availability of spares.

 

The Perkins I've most commonly found on canal boats are the D3 (same as the P3 largely - I'm sure someone here can tell us what the difference is) which was the heartbeat of many Ferguson tractors, the 4.108 which seems to go on for ever, and the 3cyl MC42 which is a nice chunky unit with lots of torque.

[Ex- Member]

This is our 50HP perkins diesel engine @ 50 HP 4 cyl I think 2.5 litre

 

I believe there was a 35 HP using the same block lower CC. I think it's the engine is a 4108 series but don't have the engine doc's with me to confirm. This was new 4 years ago, however i think it's the older model Perkins engine and not the one used now by Sabre Marine.

 

I purchased it from a company called Tolley Marine, no longer in business I believe.

 

Might be the same block.

 

[John Orentas]

Anyone have any experience of the Perkins or Bellair?

 

 

Hi Jim.

 

If I remember correctly the Prima range of engines was an imported and 'badged' unit, they came out in the usual blaze of publicity about 25 years ago but I don't think they really caught on, not that there was any reports of anything wrong with them..

 

Never heard of the builder Bellair, so I am not much use at all.

[Bojangles]

A Kevin Bellair builds boats under the name ' Floating Homes ' at Peterborough. Might be the same guy?

[Jim Batty]

Hi Jim.

 

If I remember correctly the Prima range of engines was an imported and 'badged' unit, they came out in the usual blaze of publicity about 25 years ago but I don't think they really caught on, not that there was any reports of anything wrong with them..

 

Never heard of the builder Bellair, so I am not much use at all.

 

 

Hi John

 

When you say imported, where from?

 

Jim

[Ex- Member]

Hi John

 

When you say imported, where from?

 

Jim

 

 

Detroit USA probably, guess

[Jim Batty]

A Kevin Bellair builds boats under the name ' Floating Homes ' at Peterborough. Might be the same guy?

 

Thanks for that Bojangles. I've just sent off an email to Floating Homes to see if Kevin might have been involved ... and cares to recount any memories of building her. That would be a good piece of detective work if anything comes of it!

 

Jim

 

Detroit USA probably, guess

 

Right. I get it.

[Jim Batty]

This is our 50HP perkins diesel engine @ 50 HP 4 cyl I think 2.5 litre

 

I believe there was a 35 HP using the same block lower CC. I think it's the engine is a 4108 series but don't have the engine doc's with me to confirm. This was new 4 years ago, however i think it's the older model Perkins engine and not the one used now by Sabre Marine.

 

I purchased it from a company called Tolley Marine, no longer in business I believe.

 

Might be the same block.

 

Thanks Julynian

 

I'm starting to get a better picture of this range of Perkins engines. It seems they were designed to be 'lightweight' and was especially popular as auxillary power for sailboats. There are a few specs for the 4.108 you mentioned at http://www.secodi.fr/perkins/eng/pages/par...amp;MoteurType=

 

Again, I think I'll need to wait until I see the engine again to pin down whether its the Prima 500 series (this is the obvious one as 'Prima' is mentioned in the boat's specs, but it could be mistaken) or 4.108.

 

I suppose either is a curious choice for a narrowboat. Probably an engine the builder was familiar with due to experience producing ocean going vessels? This might also explain the 2-pack hull?

 

Jim

[John Orentas]

Hi John

 

When you say imported, where from?

 

Jim

 

 

Not sure Jim it was a long time ago, but Spain comes to mind for some reason.

 

The 4108 has been around for a very long time it was all British, a contemporary and direct competitor of the BMC 1500 for a long time.. Sometimes fitted in taxi's and the like.

Edited June 28, 2008 by John Orentas

[tony collins]

Not sure Jim it was a long time ago, but Spain comes to mind for some reason.

 

The 4108 has been around for a very long time it was all British, a contemporary and direct competitor of the BMC 1500 for a long time.. Sometimes fitted in taxi's and the like.

 

If mine was typical, it didn't like ticking over at less than 1000RPM, and under load at less than 1500 RPM so I put a 3:1 delta box on it.

 

Tony

Edited June 28, 2008 by tony collins

[sueb]

We have a Belairs hull. They built cheap hulls any thickness you wanted. Ours is 17 years old and ok but 10; 6; 5.

Who did the fitout?

Sue

[Jim Batty]

We have a Belairs hull. They built cheap hulls any thickness you wanted. Ours is 17 years old and ok but 10; 6; 5.

Who did the fitout?

Sue

 

Hi Sue

 

It's unknown who did the fitout — would have been done in 1994. There are two levels of quality of fitout: quite nice vertical pine T&G above the gunwale with oak faced ply below and on bulkheads; and some not quite as nice (but not incompetent) kitchen and loo cabinet units and doors in the passage. So it looks like it was a 'near complete' sail-away.

 

Where was Bellair based? Any idea how long it was operating and how big or small an operation it was? Was your hull ever 2-pack epoxied? Do you know if the Perkins 35hp engine was one of Bellair's standard offerings?

 

Sorry for the rush of questions, just trying to reach into the past to get a feel for the pedigree of this narrowboat that's attracted us.

 

Jim

[Mac Man]

Hi Sue

 

It's unknown who did the fitout — would have been done in 1994. There are two levels of quality of fitout: quite nice vertical pine T&G above the gunwale with oak faced ply below and on bulkheads; and some not quite as nice (but not incompetent) kitchen and loo cabinet units and doors in the passage. So it looks like it was a 'near complete' sail-away.

 

Where was Bellair based? Any idea how long it was operating and how big or small an operation it was? Was your hull ever 2-pack epoxied? Do you know if the Perkins 35hp engine was one of Bellair's standard offerings?

 

Sorry for the rush of questions, just trying to reach into the past to get a feel for the pedigree of this narrowboat that's attracted us.

 

Jim

 

Hi Jim,

 

My boat was built by Floating Homes in November 2000 and is fitted with a 500 Series Perkins engine, to be exact it a 504-2 which is 2000cc and it pained yellow...

I do have a hard copy of the users handbook and if it would help I can scan it and let you have a (PDF)

 

I'm very new to narrow boating, I bought mine last October - 33ft and the survey confirmed it was 10/6/4 construction.

It was lined by Floating Homes but a self fit out (if you can call it that) I've gutted most of it and started with a new kitchen, following through with the rest as time allows.

 

Keith

(Mac Man)

[sbillis]

If mine was typical, it didn't like ticking over at less than 1000RPM, and under load at less than 1500 RPM so I put a 3:1 delta box on it.

 

Tony

 

Tony, mine is a Perkins Perama M30 29hp three cylinder. Minimum tickover in manual is 1000 rpm and like yours does not like being under load at less than 1500 rpm. I cruise at 1800 - 2000 rpm with almost no vibration and it is silky smooth. Fuel consumption is very low, always starts when the key has just turned, so far has never let me down.

 

Simon

nb Bulrush

[tony collins]

Tony, mine is a Perkins Perama M30 29hp three cylinder. Minimum tickover in manual is 1000 rpm and like yours does not like being under load at less than 1500 rpm. I cruise at 1800 - 2000 rpm with almost no vibration and it is silky smooth. Fuel consumption is very low, always starts when the key has just turned, so far has never let me down.

 

Simon

nb Bulrush

 

Simon,

Thanks for that. I changed to an Isuzu 4LB33 and that was super. That was almost too fast with 17 x11 prop and a 2:1 box. Doesn't matter now though, because of health issues we had to sell the boat anyway.

Tony

[sbillis]

Simon,

Thanks for that. I changed to an Isuzu 4LB33 and that was super. That was almost too fast with 17 x11 prop and a 2:1 box. Doesn't matter now though, because of health issues we had to sell the boat anyway.

Tony

 

Very sorry to hear that Tony.

 

Best wishes

 

Simon

nb Bulrush

[alan_fincher]

I still have a feeling that this Perkins "Prima" is a very different engine from the others being talked about, even the 4 cylinder 4-108.

 

If Tony Brooks is about, it would be very interesting if he has any knowledge of it.

 

I do remember from his course that he is not a fan of marinisation of diesels of the overhead cam design, (if that's what this "Prima" is).

 

The problem with any engine not common in narrowboats, (and I very much doubt this one is), is that you need to know where your spares are coming from. Also I also wonder if you are forced to call out someone like River & Canal Rescue if they are as successful in getting you going again with a rare engine, as they would be with a Kubota.

 

I'm not trying to put a dampener on things, but I think you need to be very clear what this particular "motor" is.

[Jim Batty]

I still have a feeling that this Perkins "Prima" is a very different engine from the others being talked about, even the 4 cylinder 4-108.

 

If Tony Brooks is about, it would be very interesting if he has any knowledge of it.

 

I do remember from his course that he is not a fan of marinisation of diesels of the overhead cam design, (if that's what this "Prima" is).

 

The problem with any engine not common in narrowboats, (and I very much doubt this one is), is that you need to know where your spares are coming from. Also I also wonder if you are forced to call out someone like River & Canal Rescue if they are as successful in getting you going again with a rare engine, as they would be with a Kubota.

 

I'm not trying to put a dampener on things, but I think you need to be very clear what this particular "motor" is.

 

Hi Alan

 

Thanks for your advice. I'm hoping to go out to see her again sometime in the next week or so — we're waiting for all the related paperwork (receipts, bill of sale, previous survey, etc.) to be forwarded to the broker. I'll then have a good look and take some photos. I have a basic idea of what a cam is, have seen motorcycles with DOHC emblazoned on them, but I'm pretty ignorant otherwise of what I will be looking at. I AM looking forward to learning a heck of a lot more about these diesels.

 

Any idea what the core problem with marinising an overhead cam design might be (again, if that is what this 'Prima' is)?

 

Something on the plus side I would imagine (am hoping) is that this engine has less than 500 hours on it. Given good routine servicing, is there any rule of thumb as to when it would start to need replacement parts? And what those first replacement parts might be?

 

Jim

[alan_fincher]

Probably I should leave it to the experts.

 

Obviously for OHC engines that rely on a timing belt, any failure of that belt will almost certainly be completely destructive of the engine. If I remember correctly, the feeling was that in a "marine" environment it's easier to get conditions that heavily reduce timing belt life. I certainly know on his courses that Tony Brooks was no lover of the Ford engine, (XLD ??), despite it being quite regularly marinised. He had a definite preference for marinising engines where the timing is by chain, rather than belt.

 

I don't understand the "500 hours on the clock" with that Prima engine. Unless there are exceptional circumstances, that shouldn't reflect many years, so it should be possible to find references to this as a "recent" engine. I couldn't, and got the impression that it was more likely to be a similar age to the boat.

 

But if it were a 1994 boat and engine, with only 500 hours use, that would only be 35 hours use per year, which sounds ridiculous - something doesn't add up here, to me. See if it looks like a 14 year old engine, or a 2 year old one!

 

If the engine is as old as the boat, don't forget that on cars the advice is to change cam-belts at say 100,000 miles, or 10 years, whichever is first. Even if the engine has hardly turned, that would mean some parts like cam belts would have become due on age, if not on hours.....

 

Alan

 

Edited: Because first version didn't really say what I wanted to say.....

Edited June 30, 2008 by alan_fincher

[John Orentas]

I don't think the Prima range had a belt drive camshaft, but that is about as much as I do remember.. It was very much a scaled down conventional BMC type of thing.. At that time there were many lightweight engine types built in Spain, Italy Turkey etc. mainly for agricultural use driving pony size tractors water pumps and the like.

 

I did seriously consider buying one for my first boat but settled on a Kubota twin, that came from a bloke called Baxter-Jones who had a marine business somewhere on the east coast.. Anyone remember him? Not many hyphenated names in the marine business.

Edited June 30, 2008 by John Orentas