Harry Neal Windlass

[dave moore]

Hi all

Back in the mid 60s I traded a bottle of Calor gas for an old windlass from Ronnie Aldridge, a boater who was then working for Birmingham and Midland Canal Carrying Company. I cleaned it up but was never able to make out the stampings on the shank. It is similar to the prized Wheelock windlasses popular with working boaters. It's quite small (not quite small enough to be a "pocket" windlass) and beautifully made.

 

Last November Horace Foster, an ex boatman that I've known since those days, came boating for a day and promptly identified it as a "Harry Neal No 2". The factory was apparently in Smethwick and Horace recalled that they made 3 sizes, mine being the middle.

 

Can any of the greybeards out there add to what I already know?

Cheers

Dave Moore

[magnetman]

Hi all

Back in the mid 60s I traded a bottle of Calor gas for an old windlass from Ronnie Aldridge, a boater who was then working for Birmingham and Midland Canal Carrying Company. I cleaned it up but was never able to make out the stampings on the shank. It is similar to the prized Wheelock windlasses popular with working boaters. It's quite small (not quite small enough to be a "pocket" windlass) and beautifully made.

 

Last November Horace Foster, an ex boatman that I've known since those days, came boating for a day and promptly identified it as a "Harry Neal No 2". The factory was apparently in Smethwick and Horace recalled that they made 3 sizes, mine being the middle.

 

Can any of the greybeards out there add to what I already know?

Cheers

Dave Moore

The chap who runs WFBCo has a 'Neal' windlass I believe.

[NBMike]

Hi all

Back in the mid 60s I traded a bottle of Calor gas for an old windlass from Ronnie Aldridge, a boater who was then working for Birmingham and Midland Canal Carrying Company. I cleaned it up but was never able to make out the stampings on the shank. It is similar to the prized Wheelock windlasses popular with working boaters. It's quite small (not quite small enough to be a "pocket" windlass) and beautifully made.

 

Last November Horace Foster, an ex boatman that I've known since those days, came boating for a day and promptly identified it as a "Harry Neal No 2". The factory was apparently in Smethwick and Horace recalled that they made 3 sizes, mine being the middle.

 

Can any of the greybeards out there add to what I already know?

Cheers

Dave Moore

Can you post a photo ,Dave?

[dave moore]

Can you post a photo ,Dave?

 

Not personally, but I'll try a friend who understands these things later today

[alan_fincher]

I must admit I had no idea that Hairy Neil was into manufactuting windlasses.......

 

Oops, sorry, I see, Harry Neal......

 

I really must sign up for some new glasses!......

[Hairy-Neil]

I must admit I had no idea that Hairy Neil was into manufactuting windlasses.......

 

 

I actually have a Wheelock/Harry Neal clone.

 

Made by my own fair hands in a genuine victorian blacksmith's shop where I used to work years ago..... I made several but one by one they have been claimed by friends.....

[Smelly]

I think I know what a Wheelock windlass looks like, but a piccy'd still be nice, we might learn something.

[magnetman]

Just wondering if it is like this one:

 

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...si&img=1361

 

 

I had it out on the magnet - it has markings on it but they are worn off. maybe this is a Neal?

 

and this is a Wheelock:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...si&img=1351

 

there are some others in my gallery too

 

gets anorak.

 

 

 

edited for something or other

Edited June 26, 2008 by magnetman

[Hairy-Neil]

and this is a Wheelock:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...si&img=1351

 

Mine will be a Wheelock then....

 

I copied it from one of those cast 'replicas' that were available circa 30 years ago.

[magnetman]

Mine will be a Wheelock then....

 

I copied it from one of those cast 'replicas' that were available circa 30 years ago.

 

I'm guessing you mean these ones:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...si&img=1379

 

they are a very good copy of a small taper Cooke/wheelock windlass. the best small taper original cooke / wheelock windlasses I have seen are in the possession of CWF member David Schweizer. nice pair of lock keys. Stoke Bruerne museum have a nice one too, or did...

 

my commentary suggests drop forging as a manufacturing method but i think that they are actually cast, as you say.

[Hairy-Neil]

they are a very good copy of a small taper Cooke/wheelock windlass.

 

my commentary suggests drop forging as a manufacturing method but i think that they are actually cast, as you say.

 

I guess an original was used as the pattern....

 

I bought mine from a WRG stall at a National Rally, around 1990. It was only still there because it was bent and useless. I only found it was 'cast' when I tried to straighten it.....Doh...

[alan_fincher]

I'm guessing you mean these ones:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...si&img=1379

 

they are a very good copy of a small taper Cooke/wheelock windlass.

That looks very much like what was often standard hire-boat issue 30 to 40 years ago.

 

I've a couple somewhere, including a bronze one, but having the old large head for GU locks as they used to be, they are not much practical use anymore.

 

The problem with the cast iron ones was that they were usually fairly rough, and not cleaned up before a layer of galvanising was put on.

 

If you got the sandpaper or emery paper to the handle to make them smooth, then you often went through the zinc, and into the iron below. They then rusted, if they got wet.

 

Some hire companies used to paint them, red for broad locks, blue for narrow. Hirers often then couldn't cope when they came to a broad lock that had been fitted with the "marvellous" hydraulic gear with a narrow spindle.

 

Does anybody know at what dates all the "standard" paddles on the southern GU were modified to take a smaller windlass. It happened sometime in my "non canal" years, but I've no idea when.

[alan_fincher]

Here's what the 1970's cast copy windlass looked like.

 

This one is large spindle size.

 

Although I think it was marketed as "bronze", looking at it now, the family say it's brass.

 

[magnetman]

Here's what the 1970's cast copy windlass looked like.

 

This one is large spindle size.

 

Although I think it was marketed as "bronze", looking at it now, the family say it's brass.

 

 

Here's the cast iron equivalent:

 

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...si&img=1519

[dave moore]

Hi again

I spoke to Horace earlier today ay the National Festival. he wasn't able to add much to my earlier post. Neal's factory, comparable to a small modern industrial unit was somewhere "top o' smethwick", which I assume to be the 3 locks from the new to the old main line. They made 3 sizes, similar to the prized Wheelock windlasses made by Cooks. The smallest was a "pocket" windlass, the second (mine) with a shank of about 6" from eye to handle, I suspect that the largest size was a 7.5 to 8" shank.

If anyone can add to this poor database, I'd love to hear from you. If you have a Wheelock windlass for sale, even better...I may trade an original gas mask bag clip chimbley chain for one!

Yours anorakically

Dave

[Derek R.]

I would hazard a guess that the so called 'brass' windlass is in fact bronze. I believe the tin content determines the colouration and strength, brass would be insufficient on its own for a windlass.

 

Most of mine that have come my way over the years, though I would hesitate to say any were 'Wheelock's', I am told they are characterised by a small clay pipe stamped into the shank, none of mine have that, though I know someone who has one, with the additional stamp of 'Trent & Mersey'.

 

All these have been fished out after prolonged submergence, and deep pitting (except the bronze & galvy).

 

 

In greater detail; These are small eye, measuring from the centre of the eye to centre handle - 8.1/2" shanks, eyes taper from 1" to 13/16" on the cast galvy, and 1" to 7/8" on the bronze. Don't know whose symbol the arrow is - anyone?

 

These three are all forged (I think) and all 8.1/2" shanks. Nearest is the most worn, and very 'rounded' on the outside: taper 1.1/4" to not much less, very worn.

Middle is a 'red' one, some faint traces of red paint in the rough handle: taper 1.3/8" to 1.5/16".

Furthest is crudely forged with a bent handle: taper same as 'rounded'.

 

Little and Large. Feeling strong? That's just 6" of shank on the little one. It's also peppered with dots and notches - bit of 'customising' by someone: taper 1.3/8" to 1.5/16"

The big one is full 11" in the shank and heavy. Most noticeable of course is GJCC stamped 14 times all over it (somebody must have got bored that day). I picked them out in a bit of Rustol for clarity: taper same as the little one.

 

Four more on the boat, one of them an 'orrible aluminium Dunton Double long shank - one for the Ladies. Got no weight in it, falls out my belt too easy, and if it fell in the cut I - I wouldn't look for it.

 

How many links in your gas bag clip chimney chain Dave?

[dave moore]

Hi

Thanks for posting the pictures. My Neal windlass is very similar to the middle one in your second shot and is a delight to use. Horace also has a couple of Wheelocks but won't part with them (they were his father Charlie's, he was a boater too).

A standard chain is about 8 links of "single" clips (the commonest variety) or 7 of the more ornate "double"pattern. I've collected for many years.

If I was more au fait with modern technology I'd post pictures of both windlass and clip types...alas, I can't. Perhaps a more knowledeable collector with similar interests could help.

Cheers

Dave

[alan_fincher]

Derek,

 

The bronze one looks for the world to me like the small eyed equivalent of the big-eyed one I posted a picture of at post 13.

 

I think these were widely available in the 1970s, (although clearly most sold were galvanised cast iron).

 

What I can't explain is that clear arrow on it, which I've not seen before. It seems to be in the casting, rather than stamped in later ?

 

I still don't think it's genuinely old, although I could be wrong.

 

I'm tempted to go and find some old horror stories. I believe I still have a "Circle Engineering" windlass. Good point of these was that they were the first to have a rotating handle that didn't chew flesh. Bad point was .... Well, you really needed a trolley to move them around on!

[magnetman]

Wheelock, or GH Cooke windlasses came in small and large taper. I read somewhere that they only came in small taper (Trent and Mersey type) then I found several large taper examples in the Grand Union, with the magnet, disproving that theory. Of course I expect Dave Moore is looking for a useable small taper example which would fit existing locks. Unfortunately the original Trent and Mersey taper is actually a bit smaller than the modern 'standardised' size so they won't be particularly satisfactory in day to day use. There is the option to sleeve an old GJCC type but that's a bit bad in my opinion I've even seen one which was cut and squeezed and arc welded to make it fit.

 

Derek R. That's a nice collection. I am particularly keen on the GJCC stamped windlass as I find a makers imprint always makes the thing a bit more appealing.

 

gets anorak, again.

 

 

 

 

I've seen one of those windlasses with the arrow on it. It was in Harefield marina about 2 years ago. It was copper alloy (brass etc) and was the Hatton locks 'candlestick' size.

[sarahavfc]

If I was more au fait with modern technology I'd post pictures of both windlass and clip types...alas, I can't. Perhaps a more knowledeable collector with similar interests could help.

Cheers

Dave

 

Hey up Dave,

 

Here's a piccy of one of my sets of singles...and you can also see a double in the top left of the pic, still attached to a strap, which hasn't been cleaned yet. Would bring them round for you to clean on your mop, but I don't have a death wish.

 

 

Sarah

 

Edited to add: Dave, if you want me to post a pic of your windlass e-mail me over a pic. Ta!

Edited August 27, 2008 by sarahavfc

[Derek R.]

Derek,

 

The bronze one looks for the world to me like the small eyed equivalent of the big-eyed one I posted a picture of at post 13.

I think these were widely available in the 1970s, (although clearly most sold were galvanised cast iron).

What I can't explain is that clear arrow on it, which I've not seen before. It seems to be in the casting, rather than stamped in later ?

I still don't think it's genuinely old, although I could be wrong.

(snip)

 

Yes, the arrow seems cast in, a smaller version of yours, and probably contemporary. Bent too. Not a fan of non-ferrous winders.

[Timleech]

Here's the cast iron equivalent:

 

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...si&img=1519

 

I've got half a sack full of those, brand sponfire new, never been raced or rallied. No Bl**dy use to anyone now

 

Tim

[down the north]

Hi all, been following all the banter re windlass chat, I've a few and quite a lot of cookie's in various rusty states that i had from the potteries dredging gangs in the 1980's.If someone can tell me how to post a piccy on the reply page, I'll see if I can take some shots of my humble collection. last year I magnetted a nice wrought one that had been chrome plated, but nomarkings on it.

location errr, cant divulge that as its a honey pot !!

I once saw a shrroppie one , ( SUR&CCo ) in a canalside office on the shroppie, but didnt get a shot of it, anyone else seen one ??

Yes, most of the cooks I have are for the small NSR paddlegear spindles, and getting a cooke to fit current spindles is hard. I've a grand union cooke that i bought off a chap on a wooden boat at Ricky years ago, but I expect these are pretty rare as only ordered by long distance boaters. I was told the cooks with G.H.COOKE on it were made personally by Mr cooke, and those with only the clay pipe were made by the 'trainees' however they all seem the same quality whether named or not,

cheers,

Martin Fuller

 

 

Hey up Dave,

 

Here's a piccy of one of my sets of singles...and you can also see a double in the top left of the pic, still attached to a strap, which hasn't been cleaned yet. Would bring them round for you to clean on your mop, but I don't have a death wish.

 

 

Sarah

 

Edited to add: Dave, if you want me to post a pic of your windlass e-mail me over a pic. Ta!

[dave moore]

Hi Sarah

I thought you wouldn't be far away.

Magnet man, you've summarised the situation perfectly. I remeber the narrow spindles of the T&M in the 60s and have an old windlass with a smaller eye from long ago, tho I haven't looked at it for years and can't recall any discernible markings on the shank. I'll dig it out and have a look, just in case!

Sarah again...must pop over soon, will bring Harry with me for a pic

Dave

[Derek R.]

(snip)

If someone can tell me how to post a piccy on the reply page, I'll see if I can take some shots of my humble collection.

cheers,

Martin Fuller

 

To Martin and Dave, and anyone else come to that, there is a link to 'How to' within the forum:

http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/malcsworld/ph...stpictures.html

However, it's a few years old and some things change - page appearance mostly. I wrote to Dave in a PM but it seems to have evaporated, so I'll try again here.

 

First 'Google' for 'photo hosts', you'll get a fistful. I use photobucket - registration and usage is free, just put up with a few adverts scattered around.

 

Once an account is opened, click on 'my album', you can 'upload' pictures and videos into it by selecting one of four places to load from (default is 'my computer'), and clicking 'choose files'. This will open up a window from which you can browse for your desired picture file. Clicking on 'open' within that window will start the upload, this will take half a minute or more dependent on size and number of files uploaded.

 

Once uploaded, click on 'save and continue'. The pictures will now appear in your photobucket 'album', each with an array of codes beneath to choose from.

 

For including a picture in a post, left click on the IMG code. This will automatically copy the complete code to your clipboard.

 

Now go to the point in the message reply window where you want your picture to be displayed and right click for the drop down menu - then left click - 'paste'. The line of code will appear complete - no picture - but if you 'preview' your post, you will see it. That's it - job done. Lets see some windlasses!