Braunston Historic Boat Gathering

[Max Sinclair]

I believe the difference is in whether they are made of iron or steel. IIRC, Northwich GUs used iron and are usually ok, Woolwich's used steel and do deteriorate on the bend if they are neglected.

Little Woolwich hulls were constructed from Hingley's of Netherton, Dudley Grade B wrought or puddled iron as were the knees and rubbing strakes. This Malleable iron does not corrode like steel and this explains the survival of so many hulls.I also noticed with Vesta in the great frost of 1963 when the ice was over two feet thick she was free to rock having anti-freeze properties..It is unfortunate manufacture has ceased apart from museum demonstrations. Look at Victorian iron bar railings which are still as good as the day they were rolled.

[Phil Speight]

Just to make sure I've not upset anybody, my comment was firmly tongue in cheek.

 

Obviously, much like anywhere else, on the canals people should wear what they feel comfortable with.

 

I can't see a Trilby being a problem - surely that's more or less what Arthur Bray or Joe Skinner were hardly ever photographed without.

 

Or a beret ? Worn both by famous boatmen and boatwomen.

 

My own personal preference for when I'm stood on the back, and it's pi**ing down is a singularly inelegant Tilley hat. Certainly keeps the rain off your head and face.

 

I managed to leave my trusty old one in a pub at Braunston, (I think!), and was horrified when I found what the replacement cost.

 

A.

Likewise - my Tilley hat has accompanied me both boating and motor car-ing - it`s my second one , the first was left somewhere and has been much lamented , I treat my second much more carefully.

Phil

[Max Sinclair]

I do wonder how many Lister JPs were actually used in working Narrow Boats. I suspect not very many.

They were very popular in barges in Yorkshire, for instance, but how many in NBs?

 

Tim

 

The Harris icebreaker 'Spitfire' alias 'Tudor Rose' had a 1920's Lister JP which let Peter Packwood down in 1962 when he reached Chester with 'Vesta' with a gear box failure. We towed them back to the "new" Ashwood moorings. Walkers of Willenhall rebuilt the gear box in situ within a week and boating continued.Heady days. I was given a lovely copper kettle.

Edited July 8, 2008 by Max Sinclair

[Max Sinclair]

Yes, that's Oak -presumably the only one left in anything like original condition.

 

I went to "view" one of these boats that Malcolm Braine had acquired in the 1970s, despite not having sufficient funds to turn it into anything useful, if I'd been honest with myself.

 

"View" was a bit of a misnomer, as it turned out, as most of the ex BW hulks Braine had were sunk, something he didn't bother to point out before I made the long journey up there. Only about 6 inches of gunwale and the cabin could be seen.

 

There were I believe only about 8 of these boats in total, including the two shortened as hire boats, but I can't for the life of me trmember which one it was up a Norton Canes. I've therefore no idea what happened to it, ultimately.

 

Not the prettiest of narrowvoats, if I'm honest!

 

Oak is fitted with the 9hp Petter engine I saved from Ballingers motor Bridget which was cut in half by Blue Line at Braunston.With a reversing gear box it was more flexible than the equvalent Bolinder. Despite its small size I have seen Charlie and Lionel Tonks come up the Severn on a flood with a full cargo of chocolate crumb. By boating over the backwaters of the flood meadows bye passing the Locks they made progress to Diglis.Severners were very bluff bowed craft to carry the maximum capacity and while I agree they were not attractive they paid their way.

[Timleech]

The Harris icebreaker 'Spitfire' alias 'Tudor Rose' had a 1920's Lister JP which let Peter Packwood down in 1962 when he reached Chester with 'Vesta' with a gear box failure. We towed them back to the "new" Ashwood moorings. Walkers of Willenhall rebuilt the gear box in situ within a week and boating continued.Heady days. I was given a lovely copper kettle.

 

OK, one so far.

Any more?

 

Tim

[Max Sinclair]

I didn't/couldn't get anywhere near Raymond to look her over, probably because of their off-script antics, but have the latter addressed any of the former in the intervening years?

 

It is most unfortunate that having spent a considerable sum of money on a 'replica' it in no way replicates the beautiful lines of the original. Future generations will never know how graceful Raymond was in its working days.( See Gallery)

Similarly the paint on Gifford does not replicate the panel colours. Claytons mixed their own paints from powders ground in a pestle and mortar. Freddie Winett mixed yellow ochre in with the red to give the distinctive orange shade.

Edited July 9, 2008 by Max Sinclair

[carlt]

It is most unfortunate that having spent a considerable sum of money on a 'replica' it in no way replicates the beautiful lines of the original. Future generations will never know how graceful Raymond was in its working days.( See Gallery)

Similarly the paint on Gifford does not replicate the panel colours. Claytons mixed their own paints from powders ground in a pestle and mortar. Freddie Winett mixed yellow ochre in with the red to give the distinctive orange shade.

Comments like this, from such an esteemed source, make me feel vindicated, in my criticism of the Raymond rebuild.

Thank you!

[Phil Speight]

It is most unfortunate that having spent a considerable sum of money on a 'replica' it in no way replicates the beautiful lines of the original. Future generations will never know how graceful Raymond was in its working days.( See Gallery)

Similarly the paint on Gifford does not replicate the panel colours. Claytons mixed their own paints from powders ground in a pestle and mortar. Freddie Winett mixed yellow ochre in with the red to give the distinctive orange shade.

I would be interested to know if Claytons maintained this practice to the end since I do know that Nursers( Barlows) , for instance , took to buying paint ready mixed latterly. Mixing yellow ochre with the red would certainly give an orange shade similar , I presume , to the old Best Red - which was pure vermilion and so called originally because it did not bleed into the lettering when used as a background colour. This is one of the many reasons that I have always felt Joshers (for instance) were actually a much more "orange" red than people tend to paint them nowadays.

Phil

[Max Sinclair]

I would be interested to know if Claytons maintained this practice to the end since I do know that Nursers( Barlows) , for instance , took to buying paint ready mixed latterly. Mixing yellow ochre with the red would certainly give an orange shade similar , I presume , to the old Best Red - which was pure vermilion and so called originally because it did not bleed into the lettering when used as a background colour. This is one of the many reasons that I have always felt Joshers (for instance) were actually a much more "orange" red than people tend to paint them nowadays.

Phil

 

Yes, Freddie continued to the end, he painted the panels for Vesta in 1962. Subtle differences in the colours made vast improvement in the effect. I was going to paint Vesta standard Leyland paints green but they advised me to mix some black into the colour and the result was pleasing.

My Clayton pictures on CanalScape BCN show the correct shade as near as Kodak Ektachrome allows.

[Kelso's Slave]

I spent the whole weekend at Braunston in the end. Caught up with 'WorkingBoats', 'PaulH', 'Hyperion 53' and 'Kelso's Slave', plus a good many faces from the past.....Impressed with the standard of restoration on the Sickle. Looking forward to seeing Kelso looking something line a Big Northwich motor should. You have your work cut out...

 

How do Neil was good to see you there, I was pleasantly supprised to see several people taking pictures of Kelso as I worked my way back towards bottom lock on Sunday. As you say I have my work cut out but Im sure one day she will resemble a Big Northwich again rather than an old flat backed cruiser. Selling one of my motorbike's soon that may help to cover upto 5% of the cost!

[Pandora 2]

I have actually within the last couple of years seen one ex Wyvern hireboat with the roof tank still in place. I'm not sure I can recall exactly which, but think it was one of the short (38 foot) ones, either Buttercup or Daisy.

 

For Wyvern spotters everywhere, the fleet circa 1971 was....

 

Hazel ("70 foot", 10 berth) - Motorised Nurser's butty.

Bridget (55 foot, 6 Berth) - Ex Severn and Canal Carrying Co - I think it was formerly "Fir".

Olive (55 foot, 8 Berth) - Ex Severn and Canal Carrying Co - I think it was formerly "Beech".

 

Then 4 new build boats, with different hull styles to see what worked best as a hireboat (all nominally 54 feet & 7 Berth)

 

Pandora - Horrendous barge syle hull that handled like a cow on roller skates. (BW built hire cruisers based on same hull, I think).

Miranda - OK, but with a square-ish stern rather than rounter counter.

Cleopatra - Much better hull. later standardised on, and much like they still use today.

Sabrina - Similar, and the first to both have a shower (I think), and no roof mounted galvanised water tank.

 

Princess (45 foot, 6 berth) - Former horse drawn ice-breaker, origins unknown, (to me). Profile in water much like an axe head, and lethal in inexperienced hands, (stopping it in a hurry was a problem!).

Hesperus (40 foot, 6 berth - Ex GUCCCo Middle Northwich "Sextans"

Theophilus (40 foot, 6 berth) - Ex GUCCCo Middle Northwich

 

(The GUCCCo boats were by far the best handling of the then fleet).

 

Then 2 new build boats, using the hull they standardised on at the time.

 

Buttercup (38 foot, 5 birth).

Daisy (38 foot, 4 berth).

 

I assume most have survived somewhere, but did hear Hazel was in very poor condition now.

I saw Pandora some years ago, in quite rough state, whereas Sabrina can be found up the GU somewhere above Milton Keynes, very well presented.

 

Of the more interesting boats, I have just seen Theophilus down at Little Venice, and it's possible that much of it's wooden superstructure has survived from Wyvern days, I'm not sure. I've seen recent info about Hesperus/Sextans, but have not seen recent info on Bridget/Fir, Olive/.Beech or the icebreaker Princess. As the latter had a massively thick wrought iron hull, I feel sure it's still out there somewhere.

 

Anbody know ? (Or does anybody on the forum actually own any of these boats ?.

 

In a small way of a answer to Pandora my family owned her from 1978-1998 as such have fond memories of her interesting handerling but which overtime became second nature,

when sold she still had a wooden superstructure & original & very reliable (if slightly underpowered!) Lister SR2 engine ,

the top tanks were removed in the late 80's as they leaked & only held approx 70 litres!

I am trying to trace her whereabouts as lost touch with owner if anybody knows please contact me thankyou.

Edited August 12, 2008 by Pandora 2

[Hugh W]

I have actually within the last couple of years seen one ex Wyvern hireboat with the roof tank still in place. I'm not sure I can recall exactly which, but think it was one of the short (38 foot) ones, either Buttercup or Daisy.

 

For Wyvern spotters everywhere, the fleet circa 1971 was....

 

Hazel ("70 foot", 10 berth) - Motorised Nurser's butty.

Bridget (55 foot, 6 Berth) - Ex Severn and Canal Carrying Co - I think it was formerly "Fir".

Olive (55 foot, 8 Berth) - Ex Severn and Canal Carrying Co - I think it was formerly "Beech".

 

Then 4 new build boats, with different hull styles to see what worked best as a hireboat (all nominally 54 feet & 7 Berth)

 

Pandora - Horrendous barge syle hull that handled like a cow on roller skates. (BW built hire cruisers based on same hull, I think).

Miranda - OK, but with a square-ish stern rather than rounter counter.

Cleopatra - Much better hull. later standardised on, and much like they still use today.

Sabrina - Similar, and the first to both have a shower (I think), and no roof mounted galvanised water tank.

 

Princess (45 foot, 6 berth) - Former horse drawn ice-breaker, origins unknown, (to me). Profile in water much like an axe head, and lethal in inexperienced hands, (stopping it in a hurry was a problem!).

Hesperus (40 foot, 6 berth - Ex GUCCCo Middle Northwich "Sextans"

Theophilus (40 foot, 6 berth) - Ex GUCCCo Middle Northwich

 

(The GUCCCo boats were by far the best handling of the then fleet).

 

Then 2 new build boats, using the hull they standardised on at the time.

 

Buttercup (38 foot, 5 birth).

Daisy (38 foot, 4 berth).

 

I assume most have survived somewhere, but did hear Hazel was in very poor condition now.

I saw Pandora some years ago, in quite rough state, whereas Sabrina can be found up the GU somewhere above Milton Keynes, very well presented.

 

Of the more interesting boats, I have just seen Theophilus down at Little Venice, and it's possible that much of it's wooden superstructure has survived from Wyvern days, I'm not sure. I've seen recent info about Hesperus/Sextans, but have not seen recent info on Bridget/Fir, Olive/.Beech or the icebreaker Princess. As the latter had a massively thick wrought iron hull, I feel sure it's still out there somewhere.

 

Anbody know ? (Or does anybody on the forum actually own any of these boats ?.

 

Hi, Only just found this forum. I now own Miranda (now called Dvbris). Have owned it for 14 years and has seen many changes. Take a look at my website www.my-narrowboat.co.uk

Edited September 29, 2009 by Hugh W

[hughc]

I saw Hazel perhaps 10 - 12 years ago on the dry dock at Langley Mill, when in the ownership of forum member, HughC. Apart from a plank or two at the stern she was in pretty good nick. The front end had been extensively rebuilt in the 80's, apparently. The conversion was a mess, though I guess having been sunk and section 8'd didn't help.

 

I know that Hugh only bodged her up and sold her on, and that time can make a mess of old wooden boats. But give him his due, he possibly rescued her from destruction. I last saw her at Runcorn about 3 years ago and little work appeared to have been done to conserve or restore her.

 

Hazel was lying sunk at Mills Yard at Trent Lock and had Section 8 notice attached. We made an offer as a rescue bid not intending to keep her as at the time we had Wyrd and Meteor to look after. We docked her to cure the leaks by re-caulking in places and put in some Ferro cement repairs to a couple of planks. If this was a bodge then it was in a good cause and we then sold the boat to a couple from Runcorn for £800 - so no profiteering there then. I understood at the time that the boat was to be restored and used as a live aboard. Regards, HughC.

[pete harrison]

I do wonder how many Lister JPs were actually used in working Narrow Boats. I suspect not very many.

They were very popular in barges in Yorkshire, for instance, but how many in NBs?

 

Tim

 

I have done a considerable amount of research over the years into motor narrow boats and their engines / engine changes (yes, I get sadder and sadder).

 

Several B.C.N. tugs appear to have been fitted with Lister JP3's from new. Several Bantam Tugs built by E.C. Jones, Brentford were fitted with Lister JP2 or JP3's depending on their service.

 

I am unable to find any motor narrow boat (family type) that was fitted with a Lister JP from new although several were fitted as replacement engines whilst the boats were still in regular trade. 'British Waterways' tried out several different two cylinder engines during the 1950's in order to modernise their North Western (Southern) and South Eastern carrying fleets. I am not aware of any South Eastern boats being refitted with Lister JP's (these were refitted with Petter PD2's or Parsons Merganser's) but both OTTER and PRINCE CHARLES were fitted with Lister JP2's in the North Western (Southern) fleet (most others were refitted with Lister FR2's, Lister HA2's or Parsons Merganser's).

 

Samuel Barlow Coal Company Ltd. refitted most of their motor boats during the 1950's with either Gardner 2L2's, Lister JP2's or Parsons Merganser's. Those that were refitted with Lister JP2's included BENBOW, HARDY, HOOD, IAN, KENELM, KENT, MALTA, PRINCE, ROGER and WINSTON (as ALEC).

 

The Lister JP2 currently in ARUNDEL (built 2003) is thought to have come out of CHISWICK in 2002, having been fitted into CHISWICK by Threefellows Carrying, Sawley in about 1981.

 

I am sure that my researches can be expanded upon.

[Derek R.]

The Nurser Hazel was at Boxmoor a couple of months ago. Bumped into the owner resident at Boxmoor Station whilst vintage 'bussing'. Long haired bearded chap, very enthusiastic about the boat. Think he may have a mooring on the offside above Fisheries.

 

Derek

[Max Sinclair]

I do wonder how many Lister JPs were actually used in working Narrow Boats. I suspect not very many.

They were very popular in barges in Yorkshire, for instance, but how many in NBs?

 

Tim

Spitfire had one into the 1960's.