dinghy licence

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, Jerra said:

Out of interest does an outboard count as no engine?

An open boat is exempt from the BSS if it has no fixed engine, gas or electrical systems. So a dinghy propelled by a petrol outboard may be exempt, but one propelled by an electric outboard is not.

2 hours ago, BilgePump said:

 Get a canoe/kayak, pay £45 to the BCU and you're licensed & 3rd party insurance for a year.

I couldn't find any definition of canoe or kayak on the BCU or CRT websites. So would a BCU membership cover an unpowered dinghy or other small open craft?

[rasputin]

30 minutes ago, David Mack said:

An open boat is exempt from the BSS if it has no fixed engine, gas or electrical systems. So a dinghy propelled by a petrol outboard may be exempt, but one propelled by an electric outboard is not.

I couldn't find any definition of canoe or kayak on the BCU or CRT websites. So would a BCU membership cover an unpowered dinghy or other small open craft?

I think fixed is the important rule here.

 

You will need insurance you will not need a boat safety certificate

 

for a 30 day explorer you can either declare as exempt or self certificate , in any case there will be no repercussions for not having one

[Alan de Enfield]

49 minutes ago, David Mack said:

BSS if it has no fixed engine, gas or electrical systems.

The BSS doesn't actually say that.

It does not say 'fixed engine' & it doesn't say 'electrical system',  it actually  says :

 

From their website FAQs

 

"My boat is very small and has an outboard motor, do I need BSS Certification?

On most waterways, a BSS Examination is not required in respect of any privately owned, open vessel (i.e. a vessel in which all the accommodation is completely open to the elements) if it has no domestic cooking, heating, refrigerating or lighting appliances installed and it is propelled solely by an outboard engine. The decision rests with the navigation authority that will be licensing or registering your boat".

 

An electric outboard id still an outboard

 

 

 

[TheBiscuits]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The decision rests with the navigation authority that will be licensing or registering your boat

And CRT say ...

□ Is an open vessel (i.e. with all the accommodation open to the elements) and
□ Has no gas appliances or electrical system installed and
□ Is propelled solely by an outboard motor

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/733.pdf

 

So is a bit ambiguous. 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, TheBiscuits said:

And CRT say ...

□ Is an open vessel (i.e. with all the accommodation open to the elements) and
□ Has no gas appliances or electrical system installed and
□ Is propelled solely by an outboard motor

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/733.pdf

 

So is a bit ambiguous. 

 

So, another instance of C&RT making their own interpretation of something ?

 

I think I'd rather go with the 'horses mouth' (the BSSC issuing authority)

[TheBiscuits]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

So, another instance of C&RT making their own interpretation of something ?

 

I think I'd rather go with the 'horses mouth' (the BSSC issuing authority)

 

Again ...

14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The decision rests with the navigation authority that will be licensing or registering your boat

So entirely up to CRT.  Other navigation authorities may use the other criteria.

 

It does seem daft though that CRT claim:

 

The full set of BSS standards applies to boats based on all our canals and rivers, plus Environment Agency waterways.

 

... but then choose to use a different set of requirements!

[blackrose]

On some waterways you don't need to licence a tender if you're already paying for a licence for the mothership. I was moored on the Warks Avon for 3 years and the ANT didn't charge extra for a tender. 

 

Also I've never needed a bss cert for mine.

[TheBiscuits]

Just now, blackrose said:

On some waterways you don't need to licence a tender if you're already paying for a licence for the mothership. I was moored on the Warks Avon for 3 years and the ANT didn't charge extra for a tender. 

CRT let you have a <3m tender included, but do point out you don't usually need one on a canal.  It's a section on the licence application form.

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Again ...

So entirely up to CRT.  Other navigation authorities may use the other criteria.

 

It does seem daft though that CRT claim:

 

The full set of BSS standards applies to boats based on all our canals and rivers, plus Environment Agency waterways.

 

... but then choose to use a different set of requirements!

 

You need to read the full paragraph.

 

"The decision rests with the navigation authority that will be licensing or registering your boat"

 

Refers to the need (or not) of having a BSS on their waters - it is not referring to the interpretation of the BSS

 

On most waterways, a BSS Examination is not required in respect of any privately owned, open vessel (i.e. a vessel in which all the accommodation is completely open to the elements) if it has no domestic cooking, heating, refrigerating or lighting appliances installed and it is propelled solely by an outboard engine. The decision rests with the navigation authority that will be licensing or registering your boat.

[Jerra]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

 couldn't find any definition of canoe or kayak on the BCU or CRT websites. So would a BCU membership cover an unpowered dinghy or other small open craft?

The dictionary defines a canoe as:

 

a light, narrow boat with pointed ends and no keel, propelled with a paddle or paddles.

 

and a Kayak as:

 

a canoe of a type used originally by the Inuit, made of a light frame with a watertight covering having a small opening in the top to sit in.

 

I suspect both CRT & BCU would use these or similar definitions.

[rasputin]

1 hour ago, Jerra said:

 

 

I suspect both CRT & BCU would use these or similar definitions.

I suspect in practical terms they are not bothered

 

I rowed a boat down the lancaster canal, I got passed, while moored by 2 number crunchers, who treated me as if I didnt exist, I did have a licence and insurance.

 

[Jerra]

8 hours ago, rasputin said:

I suspect in practical terms they are not bothered

 

I rowed a boat down the lancaster canal, I got passed, while moored by 2 number crunchers, who treated me as if I didnt exist, I did have a licence and insurance.

 

CRT may not be but I doubt the BCU will take membership from say a rubber dinghy or rowing boat.

[David Mack]

10 hours ago, Jerra said:

The dictionary defines a canoe as:

 

a light, narrow boat with pointed ends and no keel, propelled with a paddle or paddles.

 

and a Kayak as:

 

a canoe of a type used originally by the Inuit, made of a light frame with a watertight covering having a small opening in the top to sit in.

 

I suspect both CRT & BCU would use these or similar definitions.

A Sea Otter is a light narrow boat, being built of aluminium, but hardly qualifies as a canoe.

 

A cheap one piece molded plastic kayak has no frame, so would fail on this definition.

[Jerra]

4 minutes ago, David Mack said:

A Sea Otter is a light narrow boat, being built of aluminium, but hardly qualifies as a canoe.

 

A cheap one piece molded plastic kayak has no frame, so would fail on this definition.

So incidentally would almost every Kayak on sale today apart from a few collapsible ones.   However I still think the BCU will use basics of the canoe definition  to include most Kayaks.   Pragmatism tells us most people are able to look at a "vessel" (for want of a better word) and say "that's a canoe".   In fact they will also describe most kayaks as canoes.

[BilgePump]

I don't think you could get away with a dinghy under BCU membership (it's the person they license and insure to paddle)

 

Hence for a powered anything it will be

£112.31 for a 30 day explorer licence for a powered craft under 5.5m (use up the 30 days however you wish over the year)

£20 for a year's 3rd party insurance (small craft under 11hp)

Self certified safety declaration so no BSS cert needed

 

Works out at about £4.40 per day of use, not bad for a bit of compliant fun!

 

As an aside, it appears from Towpath Talk that the single day licences are to be phased out as too expensive on the admin side. Explorer type will remain

 

eta: with the BCU membership, I think it would come down to some form of sit-down paddling (as opposed to rowing) with a single or double ended paddle in a craft that resembles a portable canoe or kayak. A dinghy fails on both the shape and two oars fronts. My cheap inflatable kayak is more like a cheap inflatable dinghy than a rigid sea kayak or Canadian canoe but it is paddled, not rowed, so BCU membership covers insurance and licence when I'm using it.

Edited June 25, 2019 by BilgePump
speellling and eta

[Alan de Enfield]

27 minutes ago, BilgePump said:

As an aside, it appears from Towpath Talk that the single day licences are to be phased out as too expensive on the admin side. Explorer type will remain

This was announced March 2018 after the review into licence fees.

 

 

licensing-futures-decision-summary-response 2018.pdf

Edited June 25, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[BilgePump]

I thought it was tempting fate to quote Towpath Talk from three months ago! When I read it I thought it had just been announced but that explains why in the short term licence fee pdf for 2019-20 there's no one day column now I look. Doh!

 

As another aside, their tables do show that an unpowered portable craft is £53.71 for the full year long term (vs. £37.44 for a 30 day explorer). Add £20 for insurance and it still works out at less than £1.50 per week to be able to put a rowing boat in the canal whenever you want for a year.