WEBASTO NIGHTMARE - COULD IT BE RED DIESEL ?

[Paul Sylvan]

Who are these people chelping on about webasto heaters?

Ive had one for nine years, used it and abused it, had in on pretty much 24/7 thruogh the winters and in nine years only had 3 yes thats THREE burner changes. I run it on gas oil, yes GAS OIL as the so called red diesel dose not exist.

Surely Mr Gunkel & Mr Sylvan are blessed with sufficient common sense to realise that when there webasto heater stops because of excess carbon / burner problems, SEVERAL times in quick succession that there may be external factors causing this?

Possibly crap cheap contaminated fuel?

 

Have you a good quality fuel filter inline like a Racor? Probably not.

 

Try buying some good quality fuel from a non waterways supplier.

I found that up here in the north that some so called marinas and chandlers that sell fuel actually sell what I can only describe as contaminated slops full of dirt, water, particulates and algea, (diesel bug).

 

The best place for us to buy fuel is from a road haulage yard where they sell loads of gas oil for the trucks who use night heaters and the diesel engined fridge trailer units.

This is beacause they have a faster turnaround of the fuel in there underground tanks.

And from what ive seen of the bankside tanks I wouldnt want anything from them going in my boat.

I bet the cassette in my thetford potty is cleaner!

 

So there you have it Messers Gunkel and Sylvan and all the other muppets out there moaning, use clean fuel not cheap slops. And fit a *CENSORED* fuel filter!

 

May allah roast your stomachs in hell and besiege you with a plague of locusts and your camels die of thirst!!

 

 

In reply to your post and your accusation that I, along with others, used ‘cheap slops’ full of dirt etc. in my Webasto heater, I conclude that you have not been thorough in your reading of my posts both on this thread and on the ‘Webasto Nightmare update’ on this forum. The New Boat Co., my supplier, took a sample of fuel from my tank for testing as did I. It was clean, red, and after being left to settle, showed neither dirt nor water contamination. It obviously hasn’t occurred to you that if The New Boat Co. had any evidence, however slight, regarding the type of contamination that you suggest, then they would have used it as the ‘perfect defence’ in the recent court case (P Sylvan versus The New Boat Co.) and thus exonerated themselves of any culpability.

 

I have always taken great care to report my experiences in a factual and balanced way. Given that my contention, (i.e. that our particular Webasto heater had not been ‘fit for purpose’ and that there had been a ‘breach of contract’ with our supplier), was upheld in a British Court Of Law, would rather suggest that the legal system upon which this country has built itself agrees with me.

 

I am glad that your experiences with your Webasto heater have been so positive, but there are clearly people around, including myself, who have had very different experiences to you. To refer to people as being muppets, just because their experiences don’t echo your own, is facile and unwarranted. In fact, it does rather suggest that the muppet boot should be on the other foot.

 

I suspect that from the tone of your post, and the general lack of consideration for other people’s experiences, that you have an undisclosed agenda. If this is the case, no meaningful discourse of any sort can usefully take place.

 

P Sylvan

[Nickhlx]

sorry - my post isn't clear. I meant running the engine on a mix of CH oil, which would still be at the old tax rate. (sorry if it is sending the thread off topic)

 

 

The engine should not be run on home heating / 28 second / kerosene even though it might run - this is because it doesn't have sufficient lubricating qualities - it can be mixed with red / road / bio but the lubricating qualities will be "increasingly reduced" the more home heating oil that is used - injector pumps are expensive to fix.

 

Webastos however do not have high tolerance high pressure injector pumps and like clean good quality fuel

 

I have no commercial interest in anything to do with sales of Webasto equipment, other than satisfaction with their perfomance when used with good quality filtered fuel, typically not always found on the side of a canal or in a passing barge...

 

Nick

[Guest TerryL]

I think that now we are losing red diesel or low tax diesel, your approach will probably be the only way to go anyway, much to the relief of heater suppliers and manufacturers!

 

The costs for those running them 7 days per week will probably relegate the heaters to non liveaboard boaters, which is probably the best way.

 

Roger

 

We are not losing red/yellow diesel.

[Roger Gunkel]

We are not losing red/yellow diesel.

 

Hi Terry,

 

Yes I realise that technically red diesel (as we have known and loved it) will still be available, but my comment was not well worded, as my basic thoughts are that with little difference in the price of red and road, there will be no point in using anything other than road diesel, whether from jerry cans or waterside suppliers who supply white or low sulphur diesel. If there is a big drop in boaters buying red as the price gap closes, then in my view, suppliers will eventually stop supplying it. Presumably, as waterside outlets have far lower purchasing power than roadside outlets, their price for fuel will soon be noticeably higher and we will all have to think about how we obtain our fuel.

 

Roger

[US Marines]

Who are these people chelping on about webasto heaters?

Ive had one for nine years, used it and abused it, had in on pretty much 24/7 thruogh the winters and in nine years only had 3 yes thats THREE burner changes. I run it on gas oil, yes GAS OIL as the so called red diesel dose not exist.

Surely Mr Gunkel & Mr Sylvan are blessed with sufficient common sense to realise that when there webasto heater stops because of excess carbon / burner problems, SEVERAL times in quick succession that there may be external factors causing this?

Possibly crap cheap contaminated fuel?

 

Have you a good quality fuel filter inline like a Racor? Probably not.

 

Try buying some good quality fuel from a non waterways supplier.

I found that up here in the north that some so called marinas and chandlers that sell fuel actually sell what I can only describe as contaminated slops full of dirt, water, particulates and algea, (diesel bug).

 

The best place for us to buy fuel is from a road haulage yard where they sell loads of gas oil for the trucks who use night heaters and the diesel engined fridge trailer units.

This is beacause they have a faster turnaround of the fuel in there underground tanks.

And from what ive seen of the bankside tanks I wouldnt want anything from them going in my boat.

I bet the cassette in my thetford potty is cleaner!

 

So there you have it Messers Gunkel and Sylvan and all the other muppets out there moaning, use clean fuel not cheap slops. And fit a *CENSORED* fuel filter!

 

May allah roast your stomachs in hell and besiege you with a plague of locusts and your camels die of thirst!!

 

Hi Jason Bin Laden - good to read your carefully considered analysis of the issues....

 

The point is that Webasto heaters are being sold by certain dealers as fit for purpose in canal boats. Therefore, they should run on the fuel that is available on canals - QED

 

As it happens, this seems to be what these dealers are promising people until the sale has been rung up in the cash register - only afterwards griping about the quality of the fuel when faced with a legitimately disgruntled aftersales complainant.

 

Mr Sylvan seems to have amply demonstrated the truth of this matter by winning his legal challenge.

 

If I were in the same boat, as it were, as the Defendant in that case, I too might be trying to hide somewhere justice can't find me....

 

Now, I wonder why you chose that particular User name ?

Edited September 12, 2008 by US Marines

[Guest TerryL]

Hi Terry,

 

Yes I realise that technically red diesel (as we have known and loved it) will still be available, but my comment was not well worded, as my basic thoughts are that with little difference in the price of red and road, there will be no point in using anything other than road diesel, whether from jerry cans or waterside suppliers who supply white or low sulphur diesel. If there is a big drop in boaters buying red as the price gap closes, then in my view, suppliers will eventually stop supplying it. Presumably, as waterside outlets have far lower purchasing power than roadside outlets, their price for fuel will soon be noticeably higher and we will all have to think about how we obtain our fuel.

 

Roger

 

Hi Roger, As I understand it the arrangements in November were partially due to the fact that white diesel would be considered much less available and higher priced at the waterside as you say, so to avoid changes, red diesel will still be available for propulsion as before but taxed higher with a self declaration rebate for heating and generating use. You won't get that with white diesel so overall red will still be considerably cheaper especially for those living aboard and there won't be a big drop. If you rarely move the bulk of your red diesel will be rebated. Taxing boat propulsion is an EU directive that the government appear not to be interested in with limited return, if any but they have to comply with it, so draw your own conclusions with the self declaration! Red is not dead yet.

 

Terry

[snail007]

One exception to any warranty is if the heater is not sold and designed as a "marine" heater. Many vehicle heaters are currently fitted to boats and as such absolutely no warranty will apply.

 

So, what is the difference between the car and marine units? If anything, the unit for cars/lorries should be better constructed. The narrowboat one is inside a steel compartment whereas the one in the car, although not so much the lorry, is subjected to all sort of corrosion from exposure to the elements.

the difference between car/lorry vrs boat heaters is that boater's tend to run webasto's on red diesel whoops thats the problem, a fellow boater I know has ran his diesel water heater for 4 years with no problems and he lives aboard. we will be paying full duty on red any time soon so I changed over to using white road diesel about 4 months ago mainly to avoid heating troubles only having one fuel tank the engine seems happy as well as the webasto happy boating.

[Roger Gunkel]

the difference between car/lorry vrs boat heaters is that boater's tend to run webasto's on red diesel whoops thats the problem, a fellow boater I know has ran his diesel water heater for 4 years with no problems and he lives aboard. we will be paying full duty on red any time soon so I changed over to using white road diesel about 4 months ago mainly to avoid heating troubles only having one fuel tank the engine seems happy as well as the webasto happy boating.

 

Hi snail007, welcome to the forum.

 

The thread that you have come in on and related threads, have been running for literally years, so I tnink there is nothing new or different that can be added. I would say though that boaters haven't 'tended' to run their diesel heaters on red diesel, rather that the heaters fitted to the boats have been plumbed in by the builders to the main tank and that red diesel has been the 'only' diesel readily available to boat users. Your choice of white diesel for reliabilty is a wise one, but I can't see many people choosing to use white diesel as a viable fuel for permanent heating because of the cost. A full time central heating system in the depths of Winter will use 150-200 litres of diesel per month and that would be three to four times the cost of a wood/coal stove.

 

Roger

[canalchris]

WEBASTO NIGHTMARE - COULD IT BE RED DIESEL ?

 

My wife and I bought a new boat from The New Boat Company in October, 2006, to live on. It came with a Webasto heater which we were told by sales staff would run on red diesel. We believed them at the time but now we’re not so sure.

We suffered continual breakdowns with our Webasto heater for over 12 months and each time the problem was the same, and required the same solution i.e. a new burner unit (the burner would get coked up to the point that the heater would not restart after its first 35 minute heating cycle). The New Boat Company failed to rectify the ongoing faults so in October, 2007, (8 long months after the problems first appeared) we contacted Webasto in Germany. They forwarded our email to Webasto UK who took over the investigation. After checking the installation and replacing the burner unit (AGAIN! This was No. 4) Webasto UK, conducted a month long experiment running the heater on white diesel. At the end of the experiment, No. 3 burner, which had been run on red diesel only, was compared with No. 4 burner (white diesel only). There was a difference. What a surprise! The burner run on red diesel had an extra yellow/white deposit mixed in with the black carbon deposits on the inside of the burner chamber. Webasto UK sent us a final report in which they stated that ‘…the most probable cause for the high build up of carbon and reduced burner life is due to an excessive presence of sulphur and/or other unknown properties within the fuel and/or tank, and is not in any way related to a Webasto product or installation issue’. That seemed to be the end of it as far as Webasto was concerned - we were being told that it was the fuel that was faulty not the unit. But how could this be? The boat had been built with the heater plumbed directly into the red diesel fuel tank and we had only ever filled up our tank with red diesel from a reputable marina outlet . We smelt a rat and decided to look further.

We contacted the Department for Transport and were told there was a considerable difference between standard red diesel BS 2869 (also called dyed gas oil), and white road diesel BSEN 590. The main difference is the sulphur levels. Webasto UK had chosen to use white road diesel (low sulphur) for their experiment on our burner. How convenient! particularly in view of the fact that they indicate excessive sulphur as the problem.

We began to see that there is a lot of misinformation around concerning red diesel and how it differs from white diesel. This was highlighted to us when the Managing Director of The New Boat Company told us that red diesel was just white diesel with dye, clearly at odds with what the Department for Transport and the British Marine Federation, who we had also made enquires to, told us.

Still without a properly functioning heater and now in the grip of winter, and still with no solution in sight, we began to feel decidedly abandoned not only by Webasto but also by The New Boat Company. With nowhere else to go we continued to dig. And this is what we found out.

Many years ago red and white diesel had the same high sulphur levels and were identical except for the red dyes used to distinguish the off road diesel for tax purposes. Over the years, however, legislation has required a lower sulphur content for white road vehicle diesel and the levels of sulphur have been dramatically reduced to, now, less than 50 parts per million (P.P.M.) for white road diesel. In contrast, red off road diesel continued to contain its high levels of sulphur, up to 2000 P.P.M. until January 2008 at which time it was reduced to no more than 1000 P.P.M. So, until recently, according to our calculations, standard red diesel has been able to contain up to 40 times more sulphur than white road diesel. Could this be the same excessive sulphur that was described in the Webasto report? And if so, is red diesel really a suitable fuel for long term use with Webasto heaters?

 

BK Marine (a Webasto agent) who bench-tested our heater unit seemed to support the above when they told us that if we ran the heater on Kerosene it would be fine. This statement seemed to imply that red diesel might not be quite as suitable a fuel to use for Webasto heaters as we’d been told and it was certainly in contradiction to the information given to us by The New Boat Company when they said that the heater ran on red diesel. BK Marine further stated that our Webasto problem was a ‘one in a million’. Hmmm…

In case we weren’t just the ‘one in a million’ we decided to search the Canal World Forum for other heater problems and, amongst numerous relevant postings, came across Roger Gunkel’s ‘Red Diesel…At last the facts!…’ dated July 2006, and then his other posts relating to his heater experiences. Our stories seemed so similar that it got us wondering if our heater problems and the continuing roundabout of buck passing and speculation were being echoed elsewhere on the inland waterways system.

We never really did buy into the ‘you’re one-in-a-million’ lie. What a joke!.

 

All the Webasto heater problems we have heard about, to date, and there are many, seem to relate to boaters who are living aboard. Could it be that it is the daily use of the heaters particularly in winter time that shows up weaknesses in the ability of these heaters to perform for a reasonable period of time on red diesel.

 

After a year of heating nightmares we have now given up on the Webasto and installed another manufacturers unit which has been guaranteed to run effectively on red diesel.

We are warm again.

 

We have asked The New Boat Company to remove the Webasto unit and refund the appropriate monies on the basis that it was not fit-for-purpose on our vessel.

They have declined this request.

We have now commenced legal action.

Whatever the outcome we hope that some much needed transparency will be brought to this slippery world of boat heating systems and the appropriateness of using red diesel for high use consumers.

 

We would be interested to hear other boaters’ experiences with Webasto heaters and their reliability (or not) when run on red diesel, particularly where they are the main source of heating and get considerable/ongoing use.

Comments appreciated.

 

Paul Sylvan

[canalchris]

had webasto fitted four years ago.small problems with starting up etc. sorted out by disconnecting fuel feed, start central heating let it run thru cycle twice,you have to restart sytem when it shuts down. recconect fuel pipe .my webasto is ok ran daily x2 for hot waer and radiators only if i switch it on manually. wind it up to max temp let it run for at least 30 mins or until water is nice and hot, then switch off, i never let mine run from central heating c good luckontroller, by the way have heard horrific stories re eberspacher,

[johnjo]

But only slighty I hope.

 

Sorry to bump this can of worms, and I don't wish to go back into all the arguments about 'Not fit for purpose' here, that's been done with excellence already, I just need help making the right decision re: Diesel Water Heaters.

 

Am I right in concluding that in general the recommendations run in the follollowing order,

best to worst,

Lockgate-Refleks, Hurricane, Mikuni, Webasco, Eberspacher.

 

I'm looking to fit a diesel water heater for convenience just to heat the rads [Winter] and shower water first thing in the morning [Winter & Summer] as opposed to 24/7, I've got solid fuel for that.

 

I am now wondering if I should be budgeting much higher than I intended for the diesel heater, or should I just fit a seperate white diesel tank and go for the Mikuni or Webasco.

 

I don't want gas and although I have S/F which I keep in 24/7 in the winter, [but just ticking over at night] it seems the best way of heating the shower water for use in the morning and during the summer.

 

BTW. I came upon this thread by accident and I think it should be one of those that gets bumped every now & then, or highlighted in some way, the amount of SENSIBLE and well grounded info is invaluable to those of us with limited experience of Canal Boats, and could save the unweary a huge amount of grief and money, many thanks to you all.

 

Regards

John

Edited January 31, 2009 by johnjo

[denboy]

lockgate-refleks would not be any use to you its a 24/7 boiler not a quick water heater

[johnjo]

lockgate-refleks would not be any use to you its a 24/7 boiler not a quick water heater

Thanks for that, thats one off the list, what's your experience, if any, [heresay even], of Mikuni & Webasco?

Cheers Denboy

[denboy]

i`m biased used lockgate stoves since they started i have great reservations about all the others that use precious electric and if and when something goes wrong having to sell the wife into servitude to pay for the repairs

[Roger Gunkel]

Hi Johnjo,

 

Being one of those liveaboards with well documented bad experiences of the Eberspacher hydronics system, I would have to say that just for hot water and the occasional burst of warmth when the SF is not on, any of the systems you have mentioned are going to be incredibly expensive to buy and install just for the use that you are contemplating.

 

You said that you don't want gas, but it would be far cheaper to install an instant gas water heater. I understand that push button heating and water is convenient, but at what cost and potential problems? If you are on a permanent mooring, an immersion heater in the tank will give you hot water for minimal cost. Speaking as someone who spent £2500 on a useless system, I am of course biased, but tread with caution

 

Incidentally, I agree with you about bumping this thread up occasionally as a cautionary tale for those with no previous experience

 

Roger

[johnjo]

Hi Johnjo,

 

Being one of those liveaboards with well documented bad experiences of the Eberspacher hydronics system, I would have to say that just for hot water and the occasional burst of warmth when the SF is not on, any of the systems you have mentioned are going to be incredibly expensive to buy and install just for the use that you are contemplating.

 

You said that you don't want gas, but it would be far cheaper to install an instant gas water heater. I understand that push button heating and water is convenient, but at what cost and potential problems? If you are on a permanent mooring, an immersion heater in the tank will give you hot water for minimal cost. Speaking as someone who spent £2500 on a useless system, I am of course biased, but tread with caution

 

Incidentally, I agree with you about bumping this thread up occasionally as a cautionary tale for those with no previous experience

 

Roger

 

Many thanks Roger, was there not something mentioned about an area on the forum for this type of thread to be available for all newbys to find more easily?

 

Could be wrong, been known before

[ditchcrawler]

But only slighty I hope.

 

Sorry to bump this can of worms, and I don't wish to go back into all the arguments about 'Not fit for purpose' here, that's been done with excellence already, I just need help making the right decision re: Diesel Water Heaters.

 

Am I right in concluding that in general the recommendations run in the follollowing order,

best to worst,

Lockgate-Refleks, Hurricane, Mikuni, Webasco, Eberspacher.

 

I'm looking to fit a diesel water heater for convenience just to heat the rads [Winter] and shower water first thing in the morning [Winter & Summer] as opposed to 24/7, I've got solid fuel for that.

 

I am now wondering if I should be budgeting much higher than I intended for the diesel heater, or should I just fit a seperate white diesel tank and go for the Mikuni or Webasco.

 

I don't want gas and although I have S/F which I keep in 24/7 in the winter, [but just ticking over at night] it seems the best way of heating the shower water for use in the morning and during the summer.

 

BTW. I came upon this thread by accident and I think it should be one of those that gets bumped every now & then, or highlighted in some way, the amount of SENSIBLE and well grounded info is invaluable to those of us with limited experience of Canal Boats, and could save the unweary a huge amount of grief and money, many thanks to you all.

 

Regards

John

If you are going to use "white" full duty diesel for your heating you may as well save the cost of the second tank and use white for every thing. Its cheaper than duty paid red

[colin stone]

Why not use kerosene which, I believe, is cheaper that R or W diesel and have the second tank?? If I did not have a generator running on red, I would use kerosene. I may still undergo go major plumbing surgery and reconfigure tanks to hold kerosene for heating. Not sure which of the little heaters are happy on it - but I would have thought that most should be adaptable.

[Paul Sylvan]

WEBASTO NIGHTMARE - COULD IT BE RED DIESEL ?

 

My wife and I bought a new boat from The New Boat Company in October, 2006, to live on. It came with a Webasto heater which we were told by sales staff would run on red diesel. We believed them at the time but now we’re not so sure.

We suffered continual breakdowns with our Webasto heater for over 12 months and each time the problem was the same, and required the same solution i.e. a new burner unit (the burner would get coked up to the point that the heater would not restart after its first 35 minute heating cycle). The New Boat Company failed to rectify the ongoing faults so in October, 2007, (8 long months after the problems first appeared) we contacted Webasto in Germany. They forwarded our email to Webasto UK who took over the investigation. After checking the installation and replacing the burner unit (AGAIN! This was No. 4) Webasto UK, conducted a month long experiment running the heater on white diesel. At the end of the experiment, No. 3 burner, which had been run on red diesel only, was compared with No. 4 burner (white diesel only). There was a difference. What a surprise! The burner run on red diesel had an extra yellow/white deposit mixed in with the black carbon deposits on the inside of the burner chamber. Webasto UK sent us a final report in which they stated that ‘…the most probable cause for the high build up of carbon and reduced burner life is due to an excessive presence of sulphur and/or other unknown properties within the fuel and/or tank, and is not in any way related to a Webasto product or installation issue’. That seemed to be the end of it as far as Webasto was concerned - we were being told that it was the fuel that was faulty not the unit. But how could this be? The boat had been built with the heater plumbed directly into the red diesel fuel tank and we had only ever filled up our tank with red diesel from a reputable marina outlet . We smelt a rat and decided to look further.

We contacted the Department for Transport and were told there was a considerable difference between standard red diesel BS 2869 (also called dyed gas oil), and white road diesel BSEN 590. The main difference is the sulphur levels. Webasto UK had chosen to use white road diesel (low sulphur) for their experiment on our burner. How convenient! particularly in view of the fact that they indicate excessive sulphur as the problem.

We began to see that there is a lot of misinformation around concerning red diesel and how it differs from white diesel. This was highlighted to us when the Managing Director of The New Boat Company told us that red diesel was just white diesel with dye, clearly at odds with what the Department for Transport and the British Marine Federation, who we had also made enquires to, told us.

Still without a properly functioning heater and now in the grip of winter, and still with no solution in sight, we began to feel decidedly abandoned not only by Webasto but also by The New Boat Company. With nowhere else to go we continued to dig. And this is what we found out.

Many years ago red and white diesel had the same high sulphur levels and were identical except for the red dyes used to distinguish the off road diesel for tax purposes. Over the years, however, legislation has required a lower sulphur content for white road vehicle diesel and the levels of sulphur have been dramatically reduced to, now, less than 50 parts per million (P.P.M.) for white road diesel. In contrast, red off road diesel continued to contain its high levels of sulphur, up to 2000 P.P.M. until January 2008 at which time it was reduced to no more than 1000 P.P.M. So, until recently, according to our calculations, standard red diesel has been able to contain up to 40 times more sulphur than white road diesel. Could this be the same excessive sulphur that was described in the Webasto report? And if so, is red diesel really a suitable fuel for long term use with Webasto heaters?

 

BK Marine (a Webasto agent) who bench-tested our heater unit seemed to support the above when they told us that if we ran the heater on Kerosene it would be fine. This statement seemed to imply that red diesel might not be quite as suitable a fuel to use for Webasto heaters as we’d been told and it was certainly in contradiction to the information given to us by The New Boat Company when they said that the heater ran on red diesel. BK Marine further stated that our Webasto problem was a ‘one in a million’. Hmmm…

In case we weren’t just the ‘one in a million’ we decided to search the Canal World Forum for other heater problems and, amongst numerous relevant postings, came across Roger Gunkel’s ‘Red Diesel…At last the facts!…’ dated July 2006, and then his other posts relating to his heater experiences. Our stories seemed so similar that it got us wondering if our heater problems and the continuing roundabout of buck passing and speculation were being echoed elsewhere on the inland waterways system.

We never really did buy into the ‘you’re one-in-a-million’ lie. What a joke!.

 

All the Webasto heater problems we have heard about, to date, and there are many, seem to relate to boaters who are living aboard. Could it be that it is the daily use of the heaters particularly in winter time that shows up weaknesses in the ability of these heaters to perform for a reasonable period of time on red diesel.

 

After a year of heating nightmares we have now given up on the Webasto and installed another manufacturers unit which has been guaranteed to run effectively on red diesel.

We are warm again.

 

We have asked The New Boat Company to remove the Webasto unit and refund the appropriate monies on the basis that it was not fit-for-purpose on our vessel.

They have declined this request.

We have now commenced legal action.

Whatever the outcome we hope that some much needed transparency will be brought to this slippery world of boat heating systems and the appropriateness of using red diesel for high use consumers.

 

We would be interested to hear other boaters’ experiences with Webasto heaters and their reliability (or not) when run on red diesel, particularly where they are the main source of heating and get considerable/ongoing use.

Comments appreciated.

 

Paul Sylvan

 

Here is the update - origionally put on this forum as a seperate post.

 

Webasto Nightmare Update

Paul Sylvan -vs.- The New Boat Co.

 

As some of you may remember from my previous ‘Webasto Nightmare’ post on this forum, my wife and I were sold a Webasto Central Heating Unit as part of a larger boat purchase by The New Boat Company back in October, 2006. After four months of use the Webasto heater, for whatever reason, stopped working properly. Despite numerous attempts by The New Boat Company and /or their agents to repair the unit over a period of one year (Feb 2007 – Feb 2008) the heater did not improve. In February, 2008, having suffered from unreliable heating and hot water through a second winter we asked The New Boat Company to replace the heater with a different product. The company refused despite us offering to pay for any difference in the cost of an alternative product.

 

In an attempt to ascertain the nature of the problem, Webasto UK visited our boat in December, 2007, and January, 2008, and carried out an experiment for a period of just over a month. As opposed to the normal red diesel that we had been using they asked us, for the duration of this experiment, to run the heater on white road diesel only. The heater appeared to work perfectly when run on this white diesel but when connected back up to red diesel began, over a period of time, to fail again in its ability to restart itself after its initial 30-40 minute cycle. On conclusion of the experiment, Webasto sent us a report on our heater which stated that … “The most probable cause for the high build up of carbon and reduced burner life is due to an excessive presence of sulphur and/or other unknown properties within the fuel and/or fuel tank, and is not in any way related to a Webasto product or installation issue”. In February, 2008, coming to the end of our second winter with an unreliable heating system and with The New Boat Co refusing to replace the product, we felt that a year was more than enough time for any supplier to sort out the problem. We made the decision to commence legal action against The New Boat Co. as the supplier of the goods. A Court Hearing was listed for 06 August, 2008.

 

We stated in our Court Claim that the Webasto Heater had not been fit for purpose.

 

The defence maintained “… that the heater supplied to the claimant was suitable to be run on red diesel”. They then went on to qualify this statement by stating “… that the problems experienced by the claimant are the result of the heater being filled with a lower grade of red diesel”.

 

This raised the question ‘A lower grade than what?’ We were informed by The New Boat Co. at the time of purchase that we should use red diesel. We were never informed of any particular grade of red diesel that we should use, nor were we informed of any particular grade of red diesel that we should not use. [Even now, months down the line and after numerous direct requests to Webasto UK, we still have not received a detailed British Standard fuel specification for the running of this heater.]

 

At the hearing which was at Reading County Court the judge found against The New Boat Co, and awarded us the full amount claimed along with our court costs.

 

The Judge has agreed to send us the detailed wording of his judgment in due course. However, the reasons given at the hearing for his decision we believe are fairly represented by the following:

 

 

1) That our Webasto heater has not been fit for purpose with the red diesel that was available to us on the waterways.

 

2) That there had been a breach of contract in that the New Boat Co. had not informed us at the time of purchase that some red diesel on the waterways may not be suitable for the heater.

 

 

*****

 

We believe that Webasto UK and their suppliers should as a matter of course, furnish their customers with precise written British Standard fuel specifications suitable for these heaters. As stated above, we have written to Webasto UK on several occasions recently requesting (again) this information. At the time of writing this post we have yet to receive it. However, when we do get it we’ll be sure to post it.

 

We would particularly like to thank Roger Gunkel who has not only offered his support to us, but in addition his previous Eberspacher research provided a valuable platform from which we could focus our research and build our case. We feel that justice has been served now and hope that others with similar issues may find our experiences helpful in their search for justice.

 

Paul Sylvan.

[Ex- Member]

Well done people, much respect for your perseverence with this. Seems a fair and sensible ment to me

Edited February 25, 2009 by Julynian

[Canalwatcher]

I find it strange that although the court judgment finding Webasto not suitable for purpose was made in August 2008 this has made little difference to Webasto heating installations being fitted to new boats by a range of builders. I would have thought perhaps that this would have stopped from fear of further court cases being brought.

 

Perhaps many find Webastos perfectly adequate.

 

Mick

[Ex- Member]

I find it strange that although the court judgment finding Webasto not suitable for purpose was made in August 2008 this has made little difference to Webasto heating installations being fitted to new boats by a range of builders. I would have thought perhaps that this would have stopped from fear of further court cases being brought.

 

Perhaps many find Webastos perfectly adequate.

 

Mick

 

It's called the numbers game. How many people would pursue a refund or claim, against how many units they sell. If they feel only a small porportion then they'll risk having to refund the small number of those who complain, they might up the price of units also to help cover this eventuallity.

 

If I had a Webasto that's been regularily playing up, they would have received my complaint this morning

[robkg]

It's called the numbers game. How many people would pursue a refund or claim, against how many units they sell. If they feel only a small porportion then they'll risk having to refund the small number of those who complain, they might up the price of units also to help cover this eventuallity.

 

If I had a Webasto that's been regularily playing up, they would have received my complaint this morning

Hi all,

 

I thought it was worth relaying my experiences to add to the melting pot.

After buying a Webasto Thermotop C in 2005, and installing it myself in 2006, I suffered continuous heater failures from within hours of first

commisioning it until I removed and returned it in November 2008.

 

During this time the heater was tested by both the dealer from whom I purchased it and Webasto UK. Both maintained that it was faultless.

 

Another dealer selling into the offshore market (Keto Ltd), despite having no vested interest, was the only organisation prepared to visit my boat

to investigate my difficulties without threatening me with a charge.

Toby Hague (Keto) spent six hours attempting to discover the cause of the heater fault. He concluded that the heater did indeed possess a fault but was unable to diagnose the cause.

He then emailed Webasto UK with his visit report, and asked them to help. No response was ever forthcoming from Webasto to my knowledge.

During my ownership of this heater I derived no use from it as for the majority of the time the boat was on dry land, being fitted out.

 

I finally issued a claim against the dealer through the county court. During the court hearing, the judge informed me that I had no claim as the heater was three years old.

(this stance taken by the judge is incorrect according to trading standards who told me that the sale of goods act provides me with some protection for up to six years)

The judge did say that I may be entitled to some costs however and suggested to the defendant that he may wish to make an offer to settle.

He did so to the tune of £1200 with the proviso that I did not mention his company in relation to my experiences in public. Hence the reason I have not mentioned them by name.

 

One other red herring I would like to dispell is that Webasto heaters carbon up due to dirty, inferior quality red diesel.

My heater had three new burners in it's short life (300 hours approx.) I had only run it on fuel bought from Countrywide Fuels, meeting the required British standards for red diesel

(and stored in clean containers). They informed me that they also supply two inland marinas.

 

My thanks go to Toby Hague (Keto) for his help and support and to Paul Sylvan who provided me positive encouragement on several occasions.

Absolutely no thanks to the dealer I bought the heater from in the first place or to Webasto UK who as far as I can tell, continue to sell in to a market aware that their product is

unsuitable for the fuel used in that market.

 

Rob

[steelaway]

Hi all,

 

I thought it was worth relaying my experiences to add to the melting pot.

After buying a Webasto Thermotop C in 2005, and installing it myself in 2006, I suffered continuous heater failures from within hours of first

commisioning it until I removed and returned it in November 2008.

 

During this time the heater was tested by both the dealer from whom I purchased it and Webasto UK. Both maintained that it was faultless.

 

Another dealer selling into the offshore market (Keto Ltd), despite having no vested interest, was the only organisation prepared to visit my boat

to investigate my difficulties without threatening me with a charge.

Toby Hague (Keto) spent six hours attempting to discover the cause of the heater fault. He concluded that the heater did indeed possess a fault but was unable to diagnose the cause.

He then emailed Webasto UK with his visit report, and asked them to help. No response was ever forthcoming from Webasto to my knowledge.

During my ownership of this heater I derived no use from it as for the majority of the time the boat was on dry land, being fitted out.

 

I finally issued a claim against the dealer through the county court. During the court hearing, the judge informed me that I had no claim as the heater was three years old.

(this stance taken by the judge is incorrect according to trading standards who told me that the sale of goods act provides me with some protection for up to six years)

The judge did say that I may be entitled to some costs however and suggested to the defendant that he may wish to make an offer to settle.

 

 

 

Hi

 

Did you have chance to see any of the burners they replaced?

I have just decoked my sons Webasto and although it was thoroughly coked up solid there was no damage to the burner.

 

Alex

[robkg]

Did you have chance to see any of the burners they replaced?

I have just decoked my sons Webasto and although it was thoroughly coked up solid there was no damage to the burner.

 

Alex

Hi Alex,

I was given the last burner replaced by Toby. It is badly coked up. I take your point that the burner may be recoverable but as they were changed by dealers,

it was probably more cost effective for them to fit a new one. Incidentally I have read other posters views that the cleaning can be done by the user, but in my

view this does not legitimise the use of this type of heater for narrow boat use. How can it be acceptable to have to carry out this operation every 100 hours of use?

In my case the fault was more serious than this as the heater would shut itself down after only a few hours from having a new burner fitted, and thereafter every 2 hours or so.

 

I would like to offer a warning to any of you buying items for self fit out. I bought the heater a year before first commissioning it.

I had explained to the dealer that this is what I was going to do and was given assurances that buying early would not adversly affect me as the two year warranty would

run from the date of first commissioning the unit. When I experienced difficulties when running the heater for the first time, the dealer was very reluctant to help and

insisted that the fault must lie with the installation. In frustration I said that if they were not willing to help me then I would return the heater for a refund.

Their response was that I could not have a refund as the heater was not new!

So be warned - what some dealers say to gain a sale and what they are actually willing to do bear no relationship to each other.

 

Rob