Cheapest diesel on the southern GU.

[magnetman]

Chris W - Can you expand on the 28sec heating oil thing please. Is it possible to run a diesel engine on the stuff?

[bristol & argo]

Chris W - Can you expand on the 28sec heating oil thing please. Is it possible to run a diesel engine on the stuff?

 

I read somewhere that you can, but you need to lob in some engine oil too to lubricate the fuel injection pump.

 

I wouldn't be surprized if some of the crud in my tank has come from used engine oil be lobbed in too.

 

Simon.

[LEO]

Hi,

Thought this may be of interest

 

Re:Red Diesel. Tax Changes for canal users 1 Year, 3 Months ago

Red Diesel and White Diesel.

 

White diesel is called derv and is used on the highway so it is highly taxed. Red diesel is tax exempt and only used for agricultural or marine use .

There is no chemical difference other than the red die added to help the customs and excise when they check your tank.

 

As is the case for most of the refined products derived from petroleum crude oil, diesel oil has no specific "chemical composition". It is a mixture of dozens of different hydrocarbons, including those classified as: paraffins; olefins; aromatics; and naphthenes.

The physical properties of diesel oil vary somewhat from one refinery to another. However, in general, diesel oil has an initial boiling point temperature of about 300 degrees F and a final boiling point of about 625 degrees F. It also contains hydrocarbons ranging from those containing about 10 carbon atoms to those containing about 20 carbon atoms. It has a specific gravity of about 0.850 which is equivalent to an API gravity of 35.

Two diesel oils for which I have compositional data indicate that they contain about 75 weight percent paraffins and about 23 weight percent aromatics. The remaining 2 weight percent are resins.

 

Running a Gardner with the older 14:1 compression ratio pistons on White or Red Diesel will have no effect whatsoever on cold smoke. Cold white smoke on start-up was a low compression ration problem and not a flash point issue.

Later Gardner’s Euro classification was a bit of a joke, the green sprayers and green injection pump was a money making move, what improved emissions was the employment of 15:1 compression ratio pistons.

The vast majority of modern agricultural tractors and excavators by caterpillar that run on Red Diesel employ state of the art common rail fuel injection, which is not designed for a less refined fuel.

 

Paraffin

 

The physical properties of paraffin will vary to Kerosene. Gardner engines will run on Kerosene or household heating fuel of No. 1 Fuel type.

Kerosene

Kerosene has a lighter density than diesel oil, a lower boiling range than diesel oil (hence, it is more volatile than diesel oil), and it very probably has a much poorer Cetane Number than diesel oil. All of these factors will result in poorer performance of your diesel engine.

 

Damage in the fuel injection pump and sprayer tips can also be expected due to decreased lubrication performance of Kerosene. Gardner's suggested adding 1% lubricating oil to the Kesosene to overcome the lubrication issue. Adding engine oil to Kerosene further changed its character.

 

It is taken from a Gardner Forum Entry by a memeber who is a renowed expert on fuel oils. The Forum is well worth a visit, and registering to make use of all it's features.

Highly recommended to Gardner Owners - www.gardner-enthusiast.com

 

Hope this helps.

 

Albi.

[bristol & argo]

Thanks, I'll get some pics, probably of NB Melaleuca forging on through a blizzard!

Cheers

 

SImon.

 

Did you forge through the blizzard to and through Apsley on Monday? was i on the water point?

 

When we stopped for the day the sun came out, so i appologise for any inconvienience .

 

 

another Simon.

[chris w]

Hi,

Thought this may be of interest.................

 

...............White diesel is called derv and is used on the highway so it is highly taxed. Red diesel is tax exempt and only used for agricultural or marine use .

There is no chemical difference other than the red die added to help the customs and excise when they check your tank.

 

Albi.

 

Firstly, they add a "dye" not a "die"

 

Secondly, your statement is incorrect anyway. Except for certain geographically isolated areas where the logistics of delivery are difficult, red diesel is NOT simply white diesel with a dye added. Red diesel has a cetane rating that is lower than white diesel and also contains around 2000ppm of sulphur compared to white diesel which is around 50ppm.

 

Red diesel is chemically identical to heating oil.

 

A fuel's cetane rating is a measurement of the time delay between the moment the fuel is injected into the combustion chamber and the moment it is ignited by the heat inside. Cetane ratings usually vary between 30 and 60. The higher the rating, the better the engine should run.

 

White diesel has a minimum cetane rating of 51, red diesel around 45.

 

Chris

[Fuel__2001]

If we all used the correct name "gas oil" then there would be little confusion about the legend that is "red diesel".

 

If you call a fuel company and ask for red diesel they will say " do you mean gas oil".

 

@ Chris w, totally agree with the exception of the geographically isolated. However who determines if someone and where that someone becomes isolated, when they put the dye into ultra low suphar deisel (road deisel). It would be interesting to see who gets access to the real red deisel, if any actually do. I havent met or known anyone who has had access to this particular fuel. However im not saying its impossible.

 

The best site ive found for fuels and descriptions is http://www.fueloils.co.uk/ No where does it mention about red diesel. I believe it is a name that is used by the many to describe something of a legend. Fuels have evolved and improved over the last few years, especially diesel.

 

Perhaps get some sort of sticky in place to iron out the "red diesel" theme that always rears its head within the threads posted on this forum.

 

So rant over, i see this continuous "red diesel" thread popping up quite often. My intention is not to hijack this post (which i probably have) as my thread has actually has nothing to do with the price of gas oil. My apologies as my contribution to this actual post is zero.

[chris w]

If we all used the correct name "gas oil" then there would be little confusion about the legend that is "red diesel".

 

If you call a fuel company and ask for red diesel they will say " do you mean gas oil".

 

Chris w, totally agree with the exception of the geographically isolated............

 

That info I gleaned from Angela Eagles MP, in a letter to me, (extracts of which I published on here some time ago) who is the Government Minister responsible for overseeing the derogation issues with red diesel.

 

I pointed out to her that the EU derogation rules allow her to differentiate tax-wise between red and white diesel on the grounds of product quality. She agreed that red was indeed of lower quality except in some geographically isolated regions...... etc etc.

 

Surely it's the oil companies who are using the wrong terminology. WE are the customers. They should use terms (to us) that we understand in everyday parlance. What they use amongst themselves is up to them. It's one of the first rules of marketing, viz: make it easy for the customer to do business with you.

 

I have no idea whether I need "gas oil" or not. I only buy "red diesel" for the boat and "heating oil" for my home. Beyond that, I'm a diesel virgin.

 

Chris

[magnetman]

Chris W. You have indirectly accused an un-named boat based fuel retailer of illegitimately selling '28sec heating oil' as propulsion fuel and you claim that it has a domestic retail price of 40p/litre (maybe if you have a 3 tonne tank on the estate?). Is this chemically the same as the fuel your marina friend is selling and if not will the average (non Gardner) canal boat engine run on it?

[chris w]

Chris W. You have indirectly accused an un-named boat based fuel retailer of illegitimately selling '28sec heating oil' as propulsion fuel and you claim that it has a domestic retail price of 40p/litre (maybe if you have a 3 tonne tank on the estate?). Is this chemically the same as the fuel your marina friend is selling and if not will the average (non Gardner) canal boat engine run on it?

 

1. I assume you're being deliberately scurrilous. I passed on good advice (IMHO), from two friends of mine, apparently "in the know" who sell red diesel at their large canal marina. Their advice is to check/ask anyone selling you "red" diesel, from a boat, that it is indeed red diesel and not 28sec heating oil (paraffin).

 

2. They sell red diesel not 28 sec heating oil.

 

3. Their advice to me, and the reason for their warning, is that paraffin will clog up your engine eventually. I have no idea what it will actually do to a Gardner or any other brand. These guys also build boats and fit and service diesel engines so I assume they have a reasonable idea of what they're talking.

 

4. Using 28 sec heating oil for propulsion is illegal as duty has not been paid at the prevailing rate.

 

5. I buy 5,000 litres at a time for home and it's currently 40p/litre + VAT (only 5% VAT on heating oil). When I first moved into my present home, 8 years ago, it was 16p/litre !! It has been as high as 45p/litre but one can negotiate when buying large quantities. Every penny saved is £50 off the bill.

 

Chris

[GUMPY]

There is one big flaw to the theory about heating oil and red diesel that your mates expound and that is colour!

"red diesel" is oddly enough coloured red, heating oil, well at least the stuff I have here, is not!

Also 28sec heating oil is thinner then 35sec red diesel.

 

I am hardly surprised they your friends rubbish the competition, I would also not be surprised if the "marina" concerned was the one, not that far from here, where their crane ran into the cut last year .

 

As for Peter, as possibly his biggest customer (best part of 2000L a year) all I can say is that his supply is first class and clean and is diesel not heating oil.

 

 

Edited to add there is no law that says we cant use heating oil for propulsion all the law states is that if we use diesel we must pay the correct tax on it. Heating oil is NOT diesel.

 

Julian

Edited March 25, 2008 by idleness

[MoominPapa]

Did you forge through the blizzard to and through Apsley on Monday? was i on the water point?

We forged through the blizard from Winkwell to the top of Marsworth on Monday, with a stop at Berkhamstead Waitrose. Compared to Sunday it was a quiet day. Sunday's highlights include several wind-related groundings catching a bow fender on a lock gate, and fishing no.2 daughter out of a lock. This will be a journey to remember!

 

 

I'm sure I remember passing Bristol and Argo, but where and when, I don'r recall, sorry.

 

We're now North of Leighton Buzzard and well placed to do the long Milton Keynes pound tomorrow. The Nene is off strong-stream, so we may just get there.

 

Posting photos by radio is being difficult, I'll do it when we get home.

 

When we stopped for the day the sun came out, so i appologise for any inconvienience .

another Simon.

 

I should have padlocked you to the piling as we passed!

 

 

Cheers.

 

Simon.

[chris w]

There is one big flaw to the theory about heating oil and red diesel that your mates expound and that is colour!

"red diesel" is oddly enough coloured red, heating oil, well at least the stuff I have here, is not!

Also 28sec heating oil is thinner then 35sec red diesel.

 

I am hardly surprised they your friends rubbish the competition, I would also not be surprised if the "marina" concerned was the one, not that far from here, where their crane ran into the cut last year .

 

As for Peter, as possibly his biggest customer (best part of 2000L a year) all I can say is that his supply is first class and clean and is diesel not heating oil.

Edited to add there is no law that says we cant use heating oil for propulsion all the law states is that if we use diesel we must pay the correct tax on it. Heating oil is NOT diesel.

 

Julian

 

No it's not the marina near Winkwell........ and since I don't buy from them (because they're not the nearest) they have no axe to grind with their competition so far as I am concerned. Diesel anyway is a very minor part of their business.

 

If you know that your supplier's fuel is red diesel then what's the fuss? I wasn't singling him out, I was passing on generic info - isn't that the purpose of a Forum's inter alia?

 

I agree with you on the colour angle, but how many of us check the colour? The guy puts the nozzle in, pulls the trigger, fills up the tank, puts the cap back on and we pay. Bosh bosh.

 

Regarding the law on using heating oil for propulsion, I think you'll find I said the same thing. Oh and by the way, heating oil IS diesel - it's just not red diesel. Diesel is a fuel that will diesel - vegetable oil is diesel but it's not "gas oil".

 

Chris

[davidandheather]

No it's not the marina near Winkwell........ and since I don't buy from them (because they're not the nearest) they have no axe to grind with their competition so far as I am concerned. Diesel anyway is a very minor part of their business.

 

If you know that your supplier's fuel is red diesel then what's the fuss? I wasn't singling him out, I was passing on generic info - isn't that the purpose of a Forum's inter alia?

 

I agree with you on the colour angle, but how many of us check the colour? The guy puts the nozzle in, pulls the trigger, fills up the tank, puts the cap back on and we pay. Bosh bosh.

 

Regarding the law on using heating oil for propulsion, I think you'll find I said the same thing. Oh and by the way, heating oil IS diesel - it's just not red diesel. Diesel is a fuel that will diesel - vegetable oil is diesel but it's not "gas oil".

 

Chris

Hi This is the facts

35 Sec Gas Oil or Red Diesel Gas Oil is a distillate fuel manufactured to give clean burning, maximum heat output and efficient combustion in boilers and off-road diesel engines. It is a rebated gas oil, bearing a reduced rate of excise duty and as such is dyed red and contains chemical markers in accordance with Cust oms and Excise requirements, to prevent its use as road vehicle fuel.

 

Gas Oil is a "dual purpose" fuel and is recommended as a boiler fuel in domestic or light industrial installations with pressure jet burners and as a diesel fuel for off-the-highway equipment such as stationary diesel engines, farm tractors, construction equipment, railway and marine engines.

 

For off-road plant and equipment: stationary engines, farm tractors, construction plant, railway and marine engines

 

Kerosene (28 sec RBO Burning Oil is a regular grade Kerosene, refined to a high quality, having very good burning characteristics. It is recommended for domestic heating appliances especially aga cookers and boilers with external and balanced flues, vaporising flame burners, and pressure jet boilers. Its clean burning characteristics maintain a high heat output and maximum economy.

For domestic heating appliances.

 

I Doubt very much that anyone will sell you or stock 28sec for your boat engine as it at sometimes of year costs more than 35sec oil and your engine will not like it for long.

Not only that you will know if you have 28sec in your engine as it stinks like Paraffin

David

PS our farm today has just ordered 30,000Lts of Gas Oil at a cost of 52.9p per Lt and 1000Lts of 28 sec oil for the farm managers house at a cost of 53.9 per Lt this was 40p before Chrismas

Edited March 26, 2008 by davidandheather

[chris w]

I Doubt very much that anyone will sell you or stock 28sec for your boat engine as it at sometimes of year costs more than 35sec oil and your engine will not like it for long.

Not only that you will know if you have 28sec in your engine as it stinks like Paraffin

David

 

28sec heating oil has always been cheaper than red (35 sec) diesel in the 8 years that I have been buying 28 sec for home heating (even if full VAT is added) at any time of year.

 

To me, when the tanker is filling my home tanks, I certainly can't tell the difference in the smell. Maybe, in a side-by-side test, one could tell but I never bring my boat home! The home stuff and the boat stuff just smell like diesel. The possibility of damage to one's engine is what my marina friends were warning me about. QED.

 

This is the danger of a tyro (David) simply searching Google and passing himself off as some kind of diesel expert. It's so transparent and makes me see red (diesel )

 

Chris

[Batavia]

This is the danger of a tyro (David) simply searching Google and passing himself off as some kind of diesel expert. It's so transparent and makes me see red (diesel )

 

Chris

 

Shame that he is correct, isn't it?

 

Chris G (not a white oils tyro)

[saltysplash]

We forged through the blizard from Winkwell to the top of Marsworth on Monday, with a stop at Berkhamstead Waitrose. Compared to Sunday it was a quiet day. Sunday's highlights include several wind-related groundings catching a bow fender on a lock gate, and fishing no.2 daughter out of a lock. This will be a journey to remember!

I'm sure I remember passing Bristol and Argo, but where and when, I don'r recall, sorry.

 

We're now North of Leighton Buzzard and well placed to do the long Milton Keynes pound tomorrow. The Nene is off strong-stream, so we may just get there.

 

Posting photos by radio is being difficult, I'll do it when we get home.

I should have padlocked you to the piling as we passed!

Cheers.

 

Simon.

 

 

Glad all is going well. hope No2 daughter recovered from the dipping

 

PM me if you would like help with cars or stuff.....am off now till monday