£70k for a 'licence' to moor

[starman]

Another angle on the perceived investment value of moorings: just saw this (freehold for sale of Swan Wharf Moorings, Uxbridge) on Apolloduck www.apolloduck.co.uk/feature.phtml?id=80791 (sorry, technically illiterate and can't do this 'clicky' thing)

[magnetman]

Thats just down from uxbridge boat centre, where firestones tyres used to be, i think. £250k 'per unit' presumably of the mentioned '5 berths' so they are selling several 'units' they reckon the comparable moorings around there are £6k pa seems mighty dodgy to me you get about 10ft depth of canal bank as i see it cos there's housing there too. Terrible

[carlt]

Seems they're all cashing in:

 

clicky

[PeterF]

Seems they're all cashing in:

 

clicky

This sounds like Pillings Lock Marina, which is a different scheme to the one that started this thread. Rather than paying say £1,800 per year for the moorings why not lease one for 30years at what appears to be a discounted rate. The apparent reduced fee for a long term mooring should be subject to some form of DCF type calc as per Chris W because this is todays money which is worth more than tomorrows money but it still seems acceptable. It also makes some sense for the new Marina Owner, the have sunk loads of money into creating the new marina and if they sell some long terms leases they get a large chunk of capital back quickly but loose some revenue over the coming years. To them, the up front long term lease pays off their loan and reduces their interest, hence a seeming discount for a long term lease actually accrues some savings.

 

Sell 36 of these at £28,000 a shot and you have paid off £1 million of your Marina development fees and saving perhaps £65,000pa in interest.

 

I believe this type of scheme is good as long as you have agreements up front about annual service fees etc. as both parties can benefit.

 

The scheme that started this thread seems altogether different as they are still asking for considerable annual fees on top of the lump sum "lease" payment.

[Lady Muck]

Willowtree are simply responding to the reality of London Canals - that is; the majority of boats on the London canals have nothing to do with boating. They never move (except to go to the pump out) and are nothing more than a contrived form of cheap housing. The finest example of this is the disgusting festering mess at Bulls Bridge layby.

 

If people are going to use the canals as a type of housing then market forces will bring housing type costs to the canal.

£70k for 24 years is a good deal, that is less than £3k pr year. A residential mooring of that quality in this area usually goes for £5k/a so anything from the 10 year deal on represents good value.

 

At the price they're asking, it's not cheap housing though is it? Especially if you factor in the cost of maintaining a boat and it's depreciation, it's lousy value actually. I can't imagine our finiancial advisors letting us do that - they're up in arms about the cost of our marine mortgage as it is!

 

I couldn't afford it - if I could afford to pay that amount of money, then I'd be able to afford the deposit on a flat or house. My friend bought a 2 bedroom house in Kent for £125k last year, everything brand new, carpets, kitchen, bathroom, no work to do. To pay that amount of money for a bit of bankside or pontoon that you don't even own. You'd want your head examining, IMO. TBH I can't think of many liveaboard boaters who have that kind of money........

Edited March 19, 2008 by Lady Muck

[sueb]

To find out about residential planning permission ask at your local council offices. They are the only people that can give permission, BW can't.

I don't see that this gives you any security. What happens if the marina owner goes broke or sells the marina to someone who doesn't want to operate this scheme? It sounds worse than buying a Park Home and I know someone who was made homeless doing just that.

Sue

[RupertG]

At the price they're asking, it's not cheap housing though is it? Especially if you factor in the cost of maintaining a boat and it's depreciation, it's lousy value actually. I can't imagine our finiancial advisors letting us do that - they're up in arms about the cost of our marine mortgage as it is!

 

I couldn't afford it - if I could afford to pay that amount of money, then I'd be able to afford the deposit on a flat or house. My friend bought a 2 bedroom house in Kent for £125k last year, everything brand new, carpets, kitchen, bathroom, no work to do. To pay that amount of money for a bit of bankside or pontoon that you don't even own. You'd want your head examining, IMO. TBH I can't think of many liveaboard boaters who have that kind of money........

 

That's the key point, isn't it? It's a huge sum for a non-asset. Expensive non-assets are bought by people who have enormous amounts of dosh and like playing status games with their equally well-heeled friends. There are lots of people like that - many of them work a couple of miles down the road from me - and there are lots of people who grok the boat thing, but if you drew the Venn diagram of the two I'd be amazed if the overlap contained enough to measure with CERN's most sensitive detector.

 

I'd be most interested to see the business plan behind this. I've seen some stinkers in my time, but I think this one would be a very fine addition to my personal collection of the utterly deranged. At best, I can only think it would depend on creating a market in non-assets among the high-net-worthies (think modern art), but if so it shows a serious lack of insight.

 

R

[Lady Muck]

That's the key point, isn't it? It's a huge sum for a non-asset. Expensive non-assets are bought by people who have enormous amounts of dosh and like playing status games with their equally well-heeled friends.

R

 

Quite. The kind of boater who is looking for 'cheap housing' would not be interested in a *cough* deal like that. Our boat engineer services lots of the boats in town. The ones with very expensive moorings. Now quite alot of those moorings have residential planning permission but are in the region of about 8 or 9 grand a year. He says that many of those moorings are not taken by liveaboards but by the very wealthy recreational boaters - film directors, that sort of thing. If you want to find liveaboards looking for cheap housing, then you'll find more of them cc ing around London, they can't afford London mooring fees!

My London mooring has gone up in price by £1000 in 2 years. If it continues to go up at this rate, we will have to cc. But we would be able to stick to the rules as we are both self employed. Half of our clients are up North, so we'd be able to travel the system fully. I'd rather have the mooring though.

I wonder how many boaters are in the same position as us? What happens when none of us can afford to moor any more? Apart from the very wealthy? Will the system be clogged with cc ers?

As another poster on this thread pointed out, one may as well have a yacht in St Tropez - it's starting to be a very expensive pursuit, at this rate it will only be affordable if you are very wealthy indeed.

Edited March 20, 2008 by Lady Muck

[WJM]

Why is everyone so obsessed with 'cheap'. If the price of the things you want goes up just put more effort into earning the money you need.

[Lady Muck]

Why is everyone so obsessed with 'cheap'. If the price of the things you want goes up just put more effort into earning the money you need.

 

I find that kind of comment really offensive when I've been up at 5am and working til' midnight for over 10 days now. I'm trying as hard as everyone else. It isn't my fault that most of my clients don't have as much work for me because no one is buying shoes this year. I bust a gut trying to find some more clients which I'm now working with.

 

London boaters are not 'obsessed with cheap' we simply cannot afford the whopping £8k+ a year that it can cost in London to moor our boats.

[RupertG]

Why is everyone so obsessed with 'cheap'. If the price of the things you want goes up just put more effort into earning the money you need.

 

Because it's a lifestyle well suited to people who resent spending too much of their lives putting effort into earning money, and this sort of change threatens that lifestyle?

 

Canal life isn't 'cheap', from what I can see, but it is flexible and sustainable and open to a lot more variation than house life. Thus it's a good choice for those who want to live without signing up to the monetarist monty. There's no reason that everything in life has to be mediated that way: in fact, I think it's important and healthy for society that alternatives exist. Monocultures are vulnerable.

 

And it's fairer. Different people have different needs and different abilities. Money is no respecter of that, but people come first - be no respecter of money, if it pleases you.

 

R

[WJM]

Life is change - he who is not changing is dying.

 

The value of our money falls all the time, so in order to stand still, you must have a plan to constantly increase your income, otherwise you are hurtling backwards.

[chris w]

I find that kind of comment really offensive when I've been up at 5am and working til' midnight for over 10 days now. I'm trying as hard as everyone else. It isn't my fault that most of my clients don't have as much work for me because no one is buying shoes this year. I bust a gut trying to find some more clients which I'm now working with.

 

From a business perspective, are you a one-product company/vendor. eg: shoes?

 

Sorry if I'm teaching granny etc , but could you not diversify by offering different products as well (ie: not shoes) into your existing market/client base? One product companies are always extremely vulnerable.

 

Chris

[WJM]

Different shoe into the same market, same shoe into a different market...

[Lady Muck]

From a business perspective, are you a one-product company/vendor. eg: shoes?

 

Sorry if I'm teaching granny etc , but could you not diversify by offering different products as well (ie: not shoes) into your existing market/client base? One product companies are always extremely vulnerable.

 

Chris

I'm a designer, I already am experienced in designing pretty much any kind of footwear product.I can't just go and study another degree, its very time consuming (!). I am very busy again, I'm going flat out infact. what I'm getting at, is, I could easily afford the mooring fees etc in the past, but the way they are increasing, there may be a point when I can't. Its not about cheap. Its about affordable. It used to be very affordable, its not so affordable now, is it? I agree with Blackrose, its very sad, are our inland waterways going to become a retirement dstination for the wealthy only? Very sad if they are.

Edited March 20, 2008 by Lady Muck

[GUMPY]

It used to be very affordable, its not so affordable now, is it? I agree with Blackrose, its very sad, are our inland waterways going to become a retirement dstination for the wealthy only? Very sad if they are.

 

Any one with any sense and the boat to do it in, will be off to the mainland of europe to retire there, having already done the UK canals.

Better food, better wine, and generally a better place to live.

The real bonus is that you get away from the govenment here.

 

J

 

Only 4 years 10 months left and counting.

[chris w]

Different shoe into the same market, same shoe into a different market...

 

Mr Ansoff to the rescue.........

[Chickadee]

Why is everyone so obsessed with 'cheap'. If the price of the things you want goes up just put more effort into earning the money you need.

 

I'm with Lady Muck, I have worked hard at my job to get where i am. Its not great wages but i love my job. The only way i could earn more money would be to work two jobs which would leave me no time or energy for a life outside of work.

We already on average work more hours than the rest of Europe. I dont want to work more!

I am moving on to a boat partly so i can have more time to enjoy this beautiful country we live in. I understand the reason for inflation etc but some price increases in things are just to line fat cats wallets. Why should we?

[WJM]

It is often accredited to Robert Fitzgerald-Kennedy, but it was originally George Bernard Shaw;

 

"Some men see things as they are and ask why? I deram dreams that never were and ask why not?"

 

Work clever, not hard!

[Machpoint005]

It is often accredited to Robert Fitzgerald-Kennedy, but it was originally George Bernard Shaw;

 

"Some men see things as they are and ask why? I dream dreams that never were and ask why not?"

 

Work clever, not hard!

 

Quite agree. Do the same amount of work, but charge more. Better still, do less work, and charge more.

If the market can't stand it, then you can't make a profit at it, and it ain't a viable business.

 

Sorry this is way but having been self-employed for 19 years one thing I do know is that nobody owes anybody a living.

 

Ian

[Chickadee]

I can't charge more for my services (or wont). I work in retail the pay even at managment level is shocking. Its just the way it is. I have looked at other careers and other shops but I love where i work now.

I guess i could earn more money doing something else but why should i be miserable in my job where i spend most of my time.

 

Also what is wrong with standing up and saying "thats to expensive" not all prices are true. After working in retail for so long i have seen some incredible over pricing.

If i can pay less for something surley thats a good thing?

 

To me it just seems like bowing to the man to accept over priced goods or services.

[Lady Muck]

I only just put my fees up. I've never made a loss in 5 years. I could go back to 9-5 as a design manager, earn a big fat salary, but I nearly killed myself doing that, I'm not going back there again!

 

Anyway, this isn't about how much money I'm making, it's about how much money everyone seems to want to squeeze out of us boaters. It could backfire though - not every wealthy pensioner out there wants a shiny boat.

I just bought Waterways world - theres a boatyard and a marina for sale in the back. Boat builders are scaling down their operations, the BW moorings auction looks like it's been a bit of a flop. I think the whole thing might end up being 'self correcting'. <Hopes>

[magnetman]

Maybe thats exactly why people are attempting to sell moorings on longer terms, including bw.

[Ianbruce]

I only just put my fees up. I've never made a loss in 5 years. I could go back to 9-5 as a design manager, earn a big fat salary, but I nearly killed myself doing that, I'm not going back there again!

 

Anyway, this isn't about how much money I'm making, it's about how much money everyone seems to want to squeeze out of us boaters. It could backfire though - not every wealthy pensioner out there wants a shiny boat.

I just bought Waterways world - theres a boatyard and a marina for sale in the back. Boat builders are scaling down their operations, the BW moorings auction looks like it's been a bit of a flop. I think the whole thing might end up being 'self correcting'. <Hopes>

 

Hi folks,

 

From what I remember at Pillings Lock you buy the Leasehold on a car parking space for 30 years, the mooring is free (part of the contract). The "deal" is a £500 a year saving. This obviously reduces in value overtime - but if it allows more land owners to develop marinas then the demand - supply hopefully will keep prices down. As for London! dont pay those prices! Get out if you can. Leave it to those £1m bonus boats like blocks of flats and head north. There is habitable land north of Watford Gap! Some of the people are quite friendly too! If you need to go to London its £10 on the bus or £15 by train (Chiltern) from Birmingham.

 

"Idleness" where did you get your logo from, just wot I need as a screen sava for work it says everything! 531 days to livaboard.

 

cheers

 

Ian

[Orca]

I'm with Lady Muck, I have worked hard at my job to get where i am. Its not great wages but i love my job. The only way i could earn more money would be to work two jobs which would leave me no time or energy for a life outside of work.

We already on average work more hours than the rest of Europe. I dont want to work more!

I am moving on to a boat partly so i can have more time to enjoy this beautiful country we live in. I understand the reason for inflation etc but some price increases in things are just to line fat cats wallets. Why should we?

 

I don't want to get too involved with this as it looks a real firecracker of a debate is looming, but hear, hear on the above!! The country is horrendously expensive, yes, as represented by ludicrous mooring schemes as per the original topic. But, until Gordon Brown & Co show me the door I will carry on adapting and paying my way in a country(side) I love! Life is more expensive on the canals no doubt, but when posed with a choice of a one bedroom flat or a 65ft boat, it was the latter hands down. That's easy for me to say I know, as I have never had any kids or debts etc..

 

And I am NOT saying for one minute I would pay the preposterous amounts involved at Willow(whatever), but as yet this is not universal..and I'm sure a good fight will commence before it does - though you can be assured some overly affluent idiot will pay it!!