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£70k for a 'licence' to moor


a boater

What do you think of this licence to moor scheme?  

49 members have voted

  1. 1. What do you think of this licence to moor scheme?

    • Great idea to raise cash for improvements on the marina. I'd live there.
      0
    • The idea is OK but I woudn't live there.
      5
    • Bad idea, I would definitely not live there.
      13
    • Terrible idea, no-one would ever live there.
      31


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I would like to see what other boaters have to say about a new 'license' to moor at Willowtree Marina. I'll keep it as brief as poss and give you the summary of the so-called 'better deal for moorers':

 

-residents (10+ boats) will have to buy a license to moor at Willowtree from next year. the costs are...

 

-£35,000 for 5 years

 

-£45,000 for 10 years

 

-£55,000 for 15 years

 

-£65,000 for 20 years

 

-£70,000 for 24 years

 

-For your money, you get security on your mooring for that number of years. You can also sell it on if you sell your boat with the mooring. So for example if you do the cheapest option, £35k, and you want to sell after 2 years, you can add whatever you want on to how much your boat is worth to cover the remaining 3 years.

 

-That's all you get that you don't get with the current deal (which is where you just pay mooring fees).

 

-You still have to pay mooring fees - e.g. £4k/year although depends on boat size.

 

-e.g. if you pay £35k for 5 years, plus £4k each year, it's £55k for 5 years or £11k per year - but most of it upfront.

 

-When you sell your boat in the marina with the mooring, Willowtree will automatically add the £70k price tag for 24 years. So a £30k boat will actually be sold for £100k. And said boat will have probably turned into a rust bucket long before the 24 years are up.

 

-Pied a terre moorers have something similar but I don't know the details.

 

Has anyone else heard of such a scheme anywhere else? Is it even (dare I utter this word...) legal? Some details on the marina: it's on the Grand Union, it's a 20 min bus ride to the train/tube station, takes over an hour to get to Central London, is in zone 5 for london transport.http://www.willowtree-marina.co.uk/

 

Obviously I have many thoughts on this, but again to summarise things:

 

-Who could possibly have a spare £35-70k to pay upfront for (basically) sweet FA?

 

-If anyone did, surely they would have the good sense to not spend it on sweet FA?

 

-And don't forget, current residents have paid a premium on their boats already, when they bought them at well over their stand-alone market value (at least £10k more - some examples I'd say £30k more). So current residents will be the only ones to pay not just once but twice.

 

So... what can we do to stop this craziness (aside from all try and sell our boats at once and get no uptake)? And where can I live if it all goes to hell?

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So... what can we do to stop this craziness (aside from all try and sell our boats at once and get no uptake)? And where can I live if it all goes to hell?

 

Don't moor there?

 

And, to re-ask Carlt's question, do thay actually have Residential permission, and the resultant Council Tax (et al) isues that brings out of the wood work?

 

[edit for typos]

Edited by Chris J W
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Or - lets say you've got 8 years left on a previously paid for 10 year agreement and the buyer doesn't want the 8 years, or you just decide that you've had enough of pouring cash in the cut - where's the guarantee that you'll get back the monies you'ld previously spent up-front for services you no longer require?

 

If I were investing £70k UPFRONT for 25 years like that I'd like to know there's a decent 'opt-out' option if circumstances dictated.

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Don't moor there?And, to re-ask Carlt's question, do thay actually have Residential permission, and the resultant Council Tax (et al) isues that brings out of the wood work?[edit for typos]
we do pay council tax, get post etc. i don't actually know what residential permission is and i can't say for sure. i assume it's just permission from BW - if so, I *think* they do, but i've never checked. and the 'dont moor there' option brings up the further problem of 'where can i moor'?
And, if you sell your boat with the mooring (or just mooring) 5 years down the line will you be selling a new 24 year lease or a 19 year one?
a 19 year one. they only have their lease on the marina for that long.
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Is this marina on the south coast of france :o

if memory serves me right think pillings do the same sort of thing but around 24k for 30 years or something like that.....Is it april first

daylight and robbery springs to mind

Edited by Liam
Edited inaccuracies in pricing.
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we do pay council tax, get post etc. i don't actually know what residential permission is and i can't say for sure. i assume it's just permission from BW - if so, I *think* they do, but i've never checked. and the 'dont moor there' option brings up the further problem of 'where can i moor'?

 

Ok. Fair enough about the "where can I moor" question (another thread!) but if I were going into there I would want to know one thing above all ... where's the guarantee that you'll get back the monies you'ld previously spent up-front for services you no longer require if your circumstances change? Ok, accepting that a 100% return is unlilkey, I'd still like to see a legally binding return. Just In Case.

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Well personally I wouldn't touch them with Carls. you're essentially paying thousands of pounds a year for bugger all, with some vague idea that you'll get some of your money back, if you can sell your 30 grand boat for 100 grand.

 

Anyone who participates deserves anything they get.

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Well personally I wouldn't touch them with Carls. you're essentially paying thousands of pounds a year for bugger all, with some vague idea that you'll get some of your money back, if you can sell your 30 grand boat for 100 grand.

 

Anyone who participates deserves anything they get.

 

I see what you mean - but at least you get 'security of tenure'. I'd be more concerned about what happens if you change your mind, circumstance dictates you can't stay, or a new buyer doesn't want the mooring.

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Funny thing is I probably have almost as much security of tenure by paying my mooring fees on time, always making time to have a few words with the marina manager, and buying him the odd pint.

 

What's the betting the contract will have all sorts of "get out clauses" like "your boat must be kept to a certain standard" that they can use if they think they can resell the tenure for a bit more cash? sure you'll get your dough back, but what's the interest on 70k over 24 years?

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What's the betting the contract will have all sorts of "get out clauses" like "your boat must be kept to a certain standard" that they can use if they think they can resell the tenure for a bit more cash? sure you'll get your dough back, but what's the interest on 70k over 24 years?

 

Not really thought about that part, but, yes, I could (if I were being an utter arse of a marina owner) see that being 'slipped in' somewhere.

 

If the OP could give details to a link or something that would help, but this does seem like they are trying to do offer a decent (within remiti) service - but I''d still like to see the Opt-Out/Get-Out criteria well advertised and upfront.

 

Put it this way ... even the most dyed-in-the-wool boater like Baldock would probably blanche at such a deal for twenty years ...

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I reckon they believe there is a slump in boating (and everything else) coming and they are trying to grab some wedge quick while people are still quite keen, before the ---- hits the fan properly.. And of course resi boat dwellers who can't afford a house are a classic target for cash extraction as they have few choices.. And of course resi boat dwellers who can't afford a house are a classic target for cash extraction as they have few choices.

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Putting aside the ethics of the thing the figures don't seem to make a huge amount of sense -- you'd be paying about £200k, including boat value, annual fees and "premium" for a 24 year lease (in very large inverted commas) for what equates to a small one/two bedroomed flat. And, unlike a flat, if you sell it, someone else takes the profit!

 

I agree with the other voices; it's a scheme to try and drag up-front money out of people with an unspoken implication that if they don't pay, well, there could be others out there who might. A pretty sick idea all round

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Willowtree are simply responding to the reality of London Canals - that is; the majority of boats on the London canals have nothing to do with boating. They never move (except to go to the pump out) and are nothing more than a contrived form of cheap housing. The finest example of this is the disgusting festering mess at Bulls Bridge layby.

 

If people are going to use the canals as a type of housing then market forces will bring housing type costs to the canal.

 

 

£70k for 24 years is a good deal, that is less than £3k pr year. A residential mooring of that quality in this area usually goes for £5k/a so anything from the 10 year deal on represents good value.

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Haven't voted because there's no 'couldn't give a stuff' button. But IMO, if anyone is daft enough to pay, that's their look-out. I wouldn't want to live anywhere near London, in anything, not least because I'm too tight to pay for the privilege.

 

Ian

 

PS you can't get decent ale for under £2 dahn sarf either.

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Haven't voted because there's no 'couldn't give a stuff' button. But IMO, if anyone is daft enough to pay, that's their look-out. I wouldn't want to live anywhere near London, in anything, not least because I'm too tight to pay for the privilege.

 

Ian

 

PS you can't get decent ale for under £2 dahn sarf either.

 

I dream of paying £2 in London (Except in Weatherspoons), since last weeks duty rise it seems that £3 is the going rate for bitter.

 

Tim

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I would like to see what other boaters have to say about a new 'license' to moor at Willowtree Marina. I'll keep it as brief as poss and give you the summary of the so-called 'better deal for moorers':

 

-residents (10+ boats) will have to buy a license to moor at Willowtree from next year. the costs are...

 

-£35,000 for 5 years

 

-£45,000 for 10 years

 

-£55,000 for 15 years

 

-£65,000 for 20 years

 

-£70,000 for 24 years

 

 

The prices you quote are actually much higher than this if you are paying up front as one needs to take Net Present Value (NPV) into account. ie: the time value of money. You lose the buying power of that money now (say 5% inflation) plus the interest on the money now (say 5%). So the discount factor is at least 10%. Most companies would use nearer to 20% in reality, but let's see what the real figure in today's money is at 10% discount factor.

 

This is the TRUE amount you are paying out, in today's money, by having to pay up front rather than year-by-year.

 

-£35,000 for 5 years........................... £43,000

 

-£45,000 for 10 years...........................£72,000

 

I have calculated it for just the first two options (5 years & 10 years) to illustrate the TRUE cost.

 

Chris

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It does seem a bit much if the existing residential owners have to suddenly pay this cost. The other thing that I'm surprised about is that marinas will normally reserve the right to renew or refuse, for example if someone is consistently causing trouble, they can ask them to leave.

 

Presumably if they're selling a 24 year lease, this right is waived?

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Won't be long before you will be able to buy the marina for £77,000. If someone came to me with that deal, i would buy the marina as a co-operative and not waste my money.

Now that is a better idea. After all if you're going to commit 77k and 24 years, you might as well do it with people you like, and own an asset, rather than a bit of paper.

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