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Vandals destroy Charity Boat


Hobbler
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lock'em up and throw away the key, if you ask me (you didn't) ................. :rolleyes:

Will you pay for it because I can think of better things to spend my taxes on.

 

Fighting poverty, poor education and drug addiction, the chief causes of youth crime would be what I'd rather see my money go on....... :rolleyes: .

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Hmmmmm. I am really not sure if you are serious about all this, or just...errr....somewhat challenged. Consideration of "previous" is always taken into consideration at sentencing. Google "Freddie Cardoza"for more information)

 

Your lack of knowledge of the Boston Miracle or Operation Ceasefire is quite astounding, given that you broguht the whole thing up. Try reading a bit more about it - and what it involved - before gushing (incorrect) generalisations.

 

However, your lack of knowledge of Operation Ceasefire pales into insignificance when you compare it with your inability to actually read what others have written:

 

"What I find the hardest to understand is why some of you guys want to pander to these thugs in anyway at all."

No-one wants to pander to criminals or thugs. What I and several others are saying is that statistically, 'lock 'em up and throw away the key' tends to work and work less and less with decreasing seriousness of the crime (as explained why by someone else earlier), and in fact is usually counter-productive.

Furthermore, locking people up is prohibitively expensive both in terms of the direct cost (around 25,000 per inmate per year) and the opportunity cost to society (of a person being economically active).

 

As said before: it's expensive and it doesn't work.

 

"Why should we waste time trying to rehabilitate them when a really long sentence (or a firing squad) solves the issue and gets them off our streets, effectively forever?"

Because that's what makes us a civilized country and not an authoritarian regime. The trouble with the death penalty (presumably, by inferral, for minor crimes) is that you will rapidly breed a culture of revenge and retribution; things will escalate fast. It also means that you are likely to execute a lot of innocent people; presumably this wouldn't bother you unil it was your child, brother or mother who was shot.

 

"If you bleeding-heart liberals want to help someone, then why not choose some underprivileged people who have not resorted to crime. There are many more such deserving cases."

 

The trouble wth your red-tab logic is that you have a very serious difficulty with rationale. You seem to assume that people who disagree with your 'lock 'em up and throw away the key' are weak on crime. That is not the case, and it is arrogant of you to suggest so; I (we) do not believe that that strategy is successful, and believe that statistics and cost analysis shows it to be unsuccessful and probably counter-productive.

 

When you rant about me (or other bleeding-heart liberals) helping underprivileged people, why on earth do you assume that I/we do not?

 

Extremely well put.

 

Dominic

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That's not true. Boston reduced gun crime dramatically by introducing draconian punishments. One young guy was caught carrying, not a gun, but a single round of ammunition in his pocket. He received 19 years jail. see clicky

 

It's daft to say it wouldn't work. If the crime for speeding were a year in prison (I'm NOT advocating that BTW :rolleyes: ) I think none but the insane would risk speeding.

 

It's a sad reflection on society here, that I feel safer in the Middle East despite their draconian rules than in the UK. I have also worked in Israel as well as the Arab countries. In Israel, there was a mugging one day in one of the major towns. It made headline TV news!!

 

We're doing something wrong here.

 

Chris

 

Please back your claim with appropriate action.... The Middle East needs sweet kindhearted dudes like you.

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What I find the hardest to understand is why some of you guys want to pander to these thugs in anyway at all. Why should we waste time trying to rehabilitate them when a really long sentence (or a firing squad) solves the issue and gets them off our streets, effectively forever?

 

If you bleeding-heart liberals want to help someone, then why not choose some underprivileged people who have not resorted to crime. There are many more such deserving cases.

 

Chris

 

I haven't read the whole thread and someone else may have already made this point:

 

Although my own gut feeling and knee jerk reaction is also for stiffer sentences and harsher punishments, don't countries such as the US (which as you already pointed out in another post does have much harsher treatment for offenders), show us that whilst this approach may help to stamp out lower level crime, punishments such as the death penalty do nothing to prevent homicide? If these figures are to be believed the USA actually has a slightly lower total crime rate per capita than the UK, but a much higher murder rate per capita.

 

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_...imes-per-capita

 

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_...ders-per-capita

 

Edit: Of course there are lots of other factors to consider such as the access to guns, a larger underclass in the US mainly based on race, as well as the rates of crime reporting which (for total crimes committed), may not be the same in both countries.

Edited by blackrose
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I haven't read the whole thread and someone else may have already made this point:

 

Although my own gut feeling and knee jerk reaction is also for stiffer sentences and harsher punishments, don't countries such as the US (which as you already pointed out in another post does have much harsher treatment for offenders), show us that whilst this approach may help to stamp out lower level crime, punishments such as the death penalty do nothing to prevent homicide? If these figures are to be believed the USA actually has a slightly lower total crime rate per capita than the UK, but a much higher murder rate per capita.

 

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_...imes-per-capita

 

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_...ders-per-capita

 

These stats are misleading.... America is a fine place populated by wonderful, well-travelled, seasoned individuals and governed by a fair minded and warm man of religion. Who could ask for more?

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When I go into a bar and ask for a pint of beer I don't expect two thirds of a pint of watered down cat's p*ss!

 

Your mistake was to enter a place named 'bar' you got what you deserved :rolleyes:

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This thread started with a story about a Charity Boat being destroyed by vandals. We have had an interesting debate about crime and punishment and what are and are not acceptable standards of behaviour. In these matters, as always, opinions differ.

 

Nevertheless, we must all be in agreement with one point and that is that this sort of mindless and unnecessary destruction of property - especially when it has been provided for charitable purposes with voluntary contributions - is wrong!

 

How the miscreants should have been dealt with (had they been identified and apprehended) has provided us all with considerable food for thought. More importantly many have sought answers as to how such acts of vandalism or general law-breaking can be prevented - this again has provided us all with food for thought and again there have been some extremely varied opinions.

 

However we deal with these problems, may I suggest that what we do not want is a totalitarian state like those that still have the death penalty - nor do we want a society where law and respect mean nothing at all to a significant sector of the population.

 

What we presently have is probably the best compromise and, as I have already indicated, I applaud anyone who can set a good example and help to train and encourage young people so that they become responsible members of our (relatively) free democracy or community and do not participate in mindless acts of vandalism or law-breaking.

Edited by NB Alnwick
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What I find the hardest to understand is why some of you guys want to pander to these thugs in anyway at all. Why should we waste time trying to rehabilitate them when a really long sentence (or a firing squad) solves the issue and gets them off our streets, effectively forever?

 

If you bleeding-heart liberals want to help someone, then why not choose some underprivileged people who have not resorted to crime. There are many more such deserving cases.

 

Chris

 

 

DITTO

 

Just kill 'em

Who's going to miss 'em - certainly not their parents or teachers

These are the same vermin that are selling drugs - binge drinking - sponging of the state - the very lowest life of our community.

We dont need them, we dont want them and we certainly won't miss their contribution to our society.

They have forfited their right to life in a civilised society.

 

Not had a good rant for years must be an age thing - Victor for PM

 

Alex :rolleyes:

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DITTO

 

Just kill 'em

Who's going to miss 'em - certainly not their parents or teachers

These are the same vermin that are selling drugs - binge drinking - sponging of the state - the very lowest life of our community.

We dont need them, we dont want them and we certainly won't miss their contribution to our society.

They have forfited their right to life in a civilised society.

 

Not had a good rant for years must be an age thing - Victor for PM

 

Alex :rolleyes:

The people who have this attitude are no better, and have no more regard for people, than the ones who commit the crime.

 

I would hate to feel such hate and vitriol for anyone and I pity you.

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DITTO

 

Just kill 'em

Who's going to miss 'em - certainly not their parents or teachers

These are the same vermin that are selling drugs - binge drinking - sponging of the state - the very lowest life of our community.

We dont need them, we dont want them and we certainly won't miss their contribution to our society.

They have forfited their right to life in a civilised society.

 

Not had a good rant for years must be an age thing - Victor for PM

 

Alex :rolleyes:

 

Fair enough, but if this attitude is prevelant, the rest of us will strugggle to keep any life outside of closed doors safe.

Many of these people are left to their evil ways by the state, to encourage people not to stray from the straight and narrow, or planned development schemes, and keep working and paying for a better life somewhere else. Heroin(a controlled drug) adiction and acoholism keeps subversives tied up, great for the government, but not so good for most of us as these things are taken by selfish people who then become detrimentally so; unless they are useing to motivate themselves to do some horrid job they would'nt otherwise cope with,and so staying out of the way.

For us(generally) a bit of subversiveness is part of the spice of life, but this is not the case for our government.

The other problem is that like arms dealing in this country, drugs and sponging off the state is part of the controling earners in government staff,not forgetting the media with the drugs, and apart from the odd weyward "hoodie" or criminal, pretty exclusive to Govenment agencies and professional gangsters. Check it out, see how quickly you get "Who's going to miss 'em We dont need them, we dont want them and we certainly won't miss their contribution to our society. They have forfited their right to life in a civilised society." and pretty much fitted up whatever you do! I'm afraid it really is a case of these kids just learning by example in most cases.

The little vandle on the other hand is easyer to steer from their aim I find, as; although I do have first hand examples of calculated vandalism by adults attempting forms of personal gain(some ex police!); the children find it too complicated to see how vandalism can get you far as an adult.

We need to show them other cleaver twisted "spin" to make them realise the s**t I've mentioned 'aint big and 'aint cleaver, and certainly not new or safe, subtle or secret, just something most of us want no part of so it may appear that we're naive or stupid.

I've spent years introducing the hoodie type kids to engineering in vintage boats and vehicles and found all the power alchemy and twisty spinny stuff an exelent alternative to drugs for them, and a doorway to jobs through the experience gained. I'm afraid I just can't do it any more tho as it seems other more important people with talking money need the space.

I hope some of the people who are still allowed on the canal will continue this as it really does work, and I got a great deal of satisfaction listening to the kids revelling in their teamworking after achieving some of the more seemingly impossible tasks!

Compete with the problems, if your right in your rightioudness then surely it's a winner? Why let the side down by lashing out?

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Will you pay for it because I can think of better things to spend my taxes on.

 

Fighting poverty, poor education and drug addiction, the chief causes of youth crime would be what I'd rather see my money go on....... :rolleyes: .

Pay for it? I never suggested that we should look after them as well.

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So sad to see that nothing can be left safely these days. There is always some yob who will spoil it for every one else.

But if i happened to their own house or belongings they would be the first to be complaining.

No one respects the law or the justice system..

No one respects teachers, there is no discipline in life now.

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What I find the hardest to understand is why some of you guys want to pander to these thugs in anyway at all. Why should we waste time trying to rehabilitate them when a really long sentence (or a firing squad) solves the issue and gets them off our streets, effectively forever?

 

If you bleeding-heart liberals want to help someone, then why not choose some underprivileged people who have not resorted to crime. There are many more such deserving cases.

 

Chris

Looking at this and other posts by "Chris W", I think we should all feel highly privileged that Harry Enfield is a contributor to this forum, in his guise as "Tory Boy". :rolleyes:

 

Just imagine if he was serious.......

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I don't know what the answer is here. I have spent many years comng acrosspeople (and I use that term lightly) tha would rather tread on you than help you. I've seen some of these spongers as someone called them sitting on their porch steps drinking special brew smoking fags, and spending their milk tokens that wee supposed to be for their babies on fags, booz and just about anything to keep themselves happy and stuff the rest of society. Who cares if their party that goes on all night into the early hours wakes up he kids next door who need sleep. Who cares if their kids are out vadalising someone else's property or kicking some old man to death. It's not their problem, they don't work, thier kids only see what their parents are like, so where is the example.

 

I'm all for chances in life, but some people don't ask to be liked or certainly don't give you a reason to like them. I'm not talking about a lot of poverty striken people. I've knowna few homeless people and they are lovely. They really do just want to be left to it and are grateful for offerings of food, clothes and alcohol. I feel for the kids that are smart but they are living in poor conditions where the chances of them going to a good school or getting a sponsorship are next to nil. I feel sorry for all of those people and it is a shame more projects, money and time went into helping those people.

 

But equally there are a lot of people who couldn't give two flippin hoots about you, your property, your very life. Why would anyone ever want to give those people a chance when they have no desire to gain anything in life apart from pleasing themselves.

 

As for punishment for crimes? Our justice system is pretty pathetic. We are too easy to slap asbo's all over the place rather than find preventative measures for ensuring things like that just don't happen in the first place. If the parents of some of these way ward kids (nd I mean the parents who haven't given them any sort of discipline, boundaries, etc) were punished for their kids behaviour you would find a lot of people signing up for parent classes and family counselling esp if they thought there was some financial incentive in it for them. Prison have never been a punishment for most. Hell it's a bloody holiday camp.

 

Imagine you are some down in luck kid, your parents live in a tatty council house (and we are talking one they can't be bothered to look after) they sit around all day drinking and smoking, no parental responsibilities at all, leave the kid to it, kid gets into trouble causing trouble with his mates, who have parents who are equally intoxicated on a permanent basis. The kids have no life at home, their parents don't give a bugger because they just want them out of their hair so they can get drunk. Kid gets caught and if the crime is serious enough, they may go to a detention centre, or an adult prison if they are 18 plus. There they have a warm bed, a room, 3 meals a day, shpwers, games, TV, free view, exercise, use of computeres, libraries and more counselling support and educational needs than they would ever get at home. Why not keep getting yourself chucked back in?

 

Life should mean life, there should be a lot more community service dished out. If some of those kids spent anytime getting the crap out of the canals, cleaning off graffiti (although some of it is very good and a waste of a good talent), and generally having to keep this country of ours tidy, it would be a heck of a better detterent than sitting in a prison cell or watching their favourite TV programmes with a spliff and a can of moonshine care of HM prison.

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