Railway boats and canals

[NB Alnwick]

I am doing some research on railway company owned canals and narrowboats. Can anyone suggest any websites that contain photographs of boats, canals or notices that suggest railway ownership?

 

Also, I am still trying to establish when (if ever) the London Midland & Scottish Railway disposed of its substantial interest in the BCN.

 

Thanks,

Graham

[Tim Lewis]

I am doing some research on railway company owned canals and narrowboats. Can anyone suggest any websites that contain photographs of boats, canals or notices that suggest railway ownership?

 

Also, I am still trying to establish when (if ever) the London Midland & Scottish Railway disposed of its substantial interest in the BCN.

 

Thanks,

Graham

 

The following web site should give you some useful contacts:

 

http://www.rchs.org.uk

 

There is a BCN yahoo group that is subscribed yto by what appears to be the acknowledged experts on the BCN at:

 

http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/CanalScapeBCN/

 

Tim

[rjasmith]

Graham,

 

I imagine you know that Kevin Whittle (Kelvin Register fellow) owns an ex Railway boat (Tebay). Perhaps he has done research which may be useful for you - do you have contact details for him?

 

Richard

[Foxglove]

Hello Graham ,

 

Roger Fuller's website http://www.spurstow.com/rogerfuller/historic/index.htm has /had some good information on railway boats but the site doesn't appear to have been updated for a long time . I think Daniel ( dhutch ) knows Roger's son Joe and may know what's happening with the site , in fact , isn't Joe a member of the forum ?

 

 

Duncan

[Max Sinclair]

The superb Netherton Exchange Basin and the Stourport Arm belonged to British Rail in the 1950's, I had some negotiation with them. Max

[AMModels]

Hello Graham ,

 

Roger Fuller's website http://www.spurstow.com/rogerfuller/historic/index.htm has /had some good information on railway boats but the site doesn't appear to have been updated for a long time . I think Daniel ( dhutch ) knows Roger's son Joe and may know what's happening with the site , in fact , isn't Joe a member of the forum ?

Duncan

I spoke with Roger when setting up my site and he explained that he couldnt keep his site as up to date as he wished so I now host updated versions of his pages integrated with my own information. See the link below.

[Paul H]

The chap I suggest you talk to is Francis Stapleton owner of the little tug Coventry and an iron day boat or two - he's the acknowledged expert on railway boats. He's not on the internet (I suspect he's still in the nineteenth century) but you should be able to contact him at the Black Country Museum or go and see him at the tug gathering there on the 3rd, 4th and 5th of May.

 

Paul

[Chertsey]

The chap I suggest you talk to is Francis Stapleton owner of the little tug Coventry and an iron day boat or two - he's the acknowledged expert on railway boats. He's not on the internet (I suspect he's still in the nineteenth century) but you should be able to contact him at the Black Country Museum or go and see him at the tug gathering there on the 3rd, 4th and 5th of May.

 

Paul

 

Tug gathering?

 

Where is drooling smiley?

[Heartland]

Looking at the wider scene of railway boats, whilst the Midlands had the highest concentration of railway interchange basins, there were others to be found elsewhere. The Ashton Canal had one near Manchester where the Manchester, Sheffield & Lincolnshire Railway (later Great Central) had an interchange wharf. There has been some recent correspondence on Canalscape regarding a wharf at Aynho, Oxford Canal (notably by David Blagrove). The line of the Grand Junction Canal provided useful for the interchange of building material and track for the London & Birmingham Canal and there were subsequent interchange depots such as Weedon where railway traffic could be exchanged. The LNWR Weedon Wharf, being of course a different location to the Ordnance Depot.

 

There remains one particular conundrum from the railway traffic age, and Pete Harrison might confirm this, and this is the gauging on the BCN for a boat belonging to the Furness Railway. It has been assumed this was perhaps associated with the supply of the prized pig iron or iron ore that came from the Furness area. Tom Foxon has long sought the reason why this boat was on the BCN.

 

Ray Shill

Edited June 12, 2012 by Heartland

[RLWP]

Did the Furness Railway own a depot or transfer siding somewhere around the BCN? I know many companies owned goods sheds well away from their own running metals

 

Richard

[Heartland]

I have yet to find any reference to the Furness having a siding off the LNWR, GWR or MR, which served this region, or any other form of establishment on the BCN

 

Ray Shill

[RLWP]

There is an active Furness Railway society, although their website looks out of date

 

I know the L&NWR Society has several sets of siding books that detail the sidings off their lines. Offhand I don't remember if they have the ones for the BCN area. These books are in the study centre in Kenilworth

 

Richard

[pete harrison]

There remains one particular conundrum from the railway traffic age, and Pete Harrison might confirm this, and this is the gauging on the BCN for a boat belonging to the Furness Railway. It has been assumed this was perhaps associated with the supply of the prized pig iron or iron ore that came from the Furness area. Tom Foxon has long sought the reason why this boat was on the BCN.

 

Ray Shill

I can offer little regarding the un-named / not numbered boat belonging to the Furness Railway Company, Barrow in Furness as gauged under B.C.N. 21510 (05 May 1912), only to confirm that it was an open (i.e. cabinless) iron boat with only 5 beams, rudder, mast and 8 cwt of dunnage on board when gauged. B.C.N. 21510 was cancelled stating "cut up" in November 1929.

 

As this boat was previously owned by Draper and Rabone, Greets Green and was also previously gauged as B.C.N. 9598 (20 April 1877 - most likely for S. Poulson) my feeling is that it is a 'standard' type of B.C.N. day boat, and having no cabin was only involved in local Black Country traffic.

[hecla777]

With regard to the question of the disposal of the BCN by the LMS railway, the BCN was not owned as such by the railway company although the LMS may have owned canal company shares, they controlled the canal by way of the 1846 Act which guaranteed the dividend payment at 4% in perpetuity. The act gave the Rly various powers, such as having a say over capital expenditure and appointment of directors, also relating to tolls. The BCN was nationalised in 1948 under the 1947 Transport Act it was at that point it ceased to exist as an independent company

 

Ray's question regarding the Furness Rly is an interesting one, I see from drawings at Kew that there were plans (dated 1889) to build some drops over the canal at the LNWR interchange basin at Great Bridge and wondered if these were for the delivery of iron ore? Of course they may not have been built.

 

Thomas Bantock & Co is often mentioned here and this company was not nationalised until 1953.

 

 

Regards

 

Martin O'Keeffe

[Heartland]

With regard to the question of the disposal of the BCN by the LMS railway, the BCN was not owned as such by the railway company although the LMS may have owned canal company shares, they controlled the canal by way of the 1846 Act which guaranteed the dividend payment at 4% in perpetuity. The act gave the Rly various powers, such as having a say over capital expenditure and appointment of directors, also relating to tolls. The BCN was nationalised in 1948 under the 1947 Transport Act it was at that point it ceased to exist as an independent company

 

Ray's question regarding the Furness Rly is an interesting one, I see from drawings at Kew that there were plans (dated 1889) to build some drops over the canal at the LNWR interchange basin at Great Bridge and wondered if these were for the delivery of iron ore? Of course they may not have been built.

 

Thomas Bantock & Co is often mentioned here and this company was not nationalised until 1953.

 

 

Regards

 

Martin O'Keeffe

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There has been correspondence regarding BCN 21510 published in the Railway & Canal History Society, Waterways History Research Group and there is a quote from Furness Railway Minutes 10th August 1898 that mentions that railway had an agent, in Wolverhampton, and this agent then had six steam boats. It is thus possible that Fellows, Morton & Clayton acted as FR agents for a time.

 

Ray Shill

[hecla777]

Pete Harrison mentions that BCN 21510 was previously owned by Draper and Rabone, the 1896 Kelly's directory shows them as Coal Merchants in Greets Green Road, West Bromwich.

 

ATB

 

Martin O'Keeffe

[1-Cylinder Wonder]

Tom Foxon wrote a book on the Station Boats. It is largely a research document with extracts from registers and the lists of boats. I have a copy from when I owned ex. LMS Finch. Not sure where it is now though but you should seek out a copy.

 

John

[hecla777]

Tom Foxon's book is:-

 

The Industrial Canal Vol 2 The Railway Interchange Trade published by Heartland Press in 1998 ISBN 0 9517755 6 1

 

It is long out of print unfortunately.

 

ATB

 

Martin O'Keeffe

[Pluto]

The 'Little' North Western Railway from Skipton to Lancaster had a rail/canal interchange at Niffany, just outside Skipton, which is still visible. The Blackburn to Bolton railway also proposed one just above the bottom lock at Blackburn, and the CLC Southport extension also suggested one near Halsall. The West Lancashire Railway, from Southport to Preston, had an interchange at Tarleton, the brick building at one end of the dockyard there originally being a railway building. The WLR had a fleet of boats working between Tarleton and Liverpool so that goods did not have to be sent by their rival, the L&YR.

[RLWP]

We will be here all day if we start listing interchanges on the BCN!

 

Richard

[Laurence Hogg]

I am doing some research on railway company owned canals and narrowboats. Can anyone suggest any websites that contain photographs of boats, canals or notices that suggest railway ownership?

 

Also, I am still trying to establish when (if ever) the London Midland & Scottish Railway disposed of its substantial interest in the BCN.

 

Thanks,

Graham

The LMS never disposed of the BCN but allowed it to run itself independantly as it was a one off very complex system.

The Ashby used to have lots of Midland Railway notices around in the 1970's and of course the Shropshire Union had loads.

 

Hello Graham ,

 

Roger Fuller's website http://www.spurstow.com/rogerfuller/historic/index.htm has /had some good information on railway boats but the site doesn't appear to have been updated for a long time . I think Daniel ( dhutch ) knows Roger's son Joe and may know what's happening with the site , in fact , isn't Joe a member of the forum ?

 

 

Duncan

This site is full of errors - beware

[Heartland]

Regarding the Railway Interchange Book, Lightmoor/ Black Dwarf have the text, and images, to reprint Tom Foxon's Railway Interchange Book and there was a thought to include other interchange wharves and basins elsewhere in the country.

 

One interchange basin, which has been in the news recently, is Carver's building yard, Wolverhampton, where the Great Western Railway and previously the Shrewsbury & Birmingham Railway had an interchange basin. Known as Victoria, this basin was filled in when Herbert Street Goods Station was enlarged and reconstructed, although the entrance arm remains and is used for moorings. A fire recently destroyed the former GWR Goods Depot buildings, but Carvers intend to make new buildings on this site.

 

Ray Shill

[NB Alnwick]

Just for clarification, this is an old topic (2008) that has been resurrected recently. I did complete my research (thanks to some excellent leads supplied by forum members) and my article was published in the part-work 'British Steam Railways'. My findings indicated that although the BCN was nominally independent, the influence of its railway company stakeholder was significant extending even to the design of administrative forms, cast notices, number plates and padlocks. I suspect that many BCN items were printed or manufactured at the railway company's Crewe Works.

[hecla777]

Just for clarification, this is an old topic (2008) that has been resurrected recently. I did complete my research (thanks to some excellent leads supplied by forum members) and my article was published in the part-work 'British Steam Railways'. My findings indicated that although the BCN was nominally independent, the influence of its railway company stakeholder was significant extending even to the design of administrative forms, cast notices, number plates and padlocks. I suspect that many BCN items were printed or manufactured at the railway company's Crewe Works.

 

Graham

 

In which issue(s)was your article published? It would be interesting to read your conclusions!

 

Thanks

 

ATB

 

Martin O'Keeffe

[Heartland]

It would be interesting to see the article mentioned. Toms Interchange Book was launched at the IWA Festival at Trafford Park, Manchester in 1998 and sold extensively by BCNS Sales. Tom, myself and Martin O Keeffe were present on that occassion. Was it used as a reference source?

 

As regards the BCN, the London & Birmingham Railway Arrangement Act effectively made it possible for the construction of the Birmingham, Wolverhampton and Stour Valley Railway alongside the route of the canal between Birmingham & Wolverhampton. The act gave the LBR and the LNWR as their successors the role to control the BCN, and the LNWR certainly contributed to the expenses of this waterway.

 

Material was purchased from outside contractors, but they also had various workshops around the system, with a central maintenance and boat yard at Ocker Hill.

 

When the LMS gained control, the BCN remained an independent waterway. If it had been LMS owned, this system would have passed first to the Railway Executive on January 1st, 1948. Other LMS owned canals did do this. The BCN passed directly to the Docks & Inland Waterways Exective on January 1st 1948 (Western district), whilst the LMS waterways were transferred across in July and August 1948.

 

Ray Shill