Company In Administration

[starman]

Should we be most concerned about the fact that - to judge by the ads in the waterways mags - the great majority of boatbuilders (or boatfitters, to be precise) don't appear to be members of the Canalboat Builders Association. What does that say about the CBA that it can't do a decent membership drive to get them in? Surely we can't be supposed to assume that all the ones without a CBA logo in their ads are in some way 'dodgy'?

[Dominic M]

Dominic said "In the case of Jazz the simple answer has to be that if it is on the market and visibly so when other secondhand boats are selling (and they have been) then the price must be wrong. Some owners find that hard to accept I fear, and some brokers don't want to turn away the business."

 

Hit the nail on the head there I reckon Dominic. It's the same as some houses that you see on the market for a year or more. They don't sell because no-one will pay the price they are asking and the owners probably think they are worth more than they actually are. Jazz's owner/s may well be regretting all the 'special' fixtures and fittings now and wish they had gone more traditional. Just a thought.

 

Edited to say: Maybe those who are looking to live aboard and who's only experience of boating has been a couple of holidays may be better advised buying second hand to start with. Then if they are still smitten by the waterbug a year down the line, they can then consider a fancy whistles and bows new build.

Jazz was built for and owned by the boatbuilder, so it is an unusual one.

 

I think your edit is spot on. You could say that I am bound to agree as I broker mostly secondhand boats! But I have lived aboard, still do, and have cruised a lot for many years now - almost 30 I'm sorry to have to admit - and I am amazed when people who have not owned a boat before jump in at the deep end and spend a lot of money on a boat built to their specification. In most cases after a year or two they realise that if they were starting again they would do a lot of things differently but they are then stuck with a boat that, particularly if some of its features are somewhat esoteric, will be difficult to sell without taking a nasty kick in the wallet area. If they spend a load more money partially refitting it will not add much if any value. I would always advise anyone new to the waterways to get a well maintained secondhand boat to start with - if they look after it they will be able to sell on with perhaps a small loss, or possibly none at all, and in some instances, at a profit - based of course on the way the market has behaved over the past decade. Also, and I have experienecd this on a number of occasions, they fall in love with that boat and reflect with a smile on how they nearly parted with twice the amount to have one built from scratch. And it is a good idea to keep it fairly conventional - there is a reason that narrowboats are laid out the way they are, and I don't believe it is just conservatism that dictates the ongoing success of time honoured and tested layouts.

 

I hope that Gary doesn't think I'm talking people out of buying new - after all every secondhand boat was new once - but many buyers who start with secondhand go on to graduate to new, and their experience probably makes life a lot easier for the boat builder.

[Gary Peacock]

Should we be most concerned about the fact that - to judge by the ads in the waterways mags - the great majority of boatbuilders (or boatfitters, to be precise) don't appear to be members of the Canalboat Builders Association. What does that say about the CBA that it can't do a decent membership drive to get them in? Surely we can't be supposed to assume that all the ones without a CBA logo in their ads are in some way 'dodgy'?

 

At the moment there is little offered to the builder by being a member, the CBA's Code of Practise forces compliance with the Recreational Craft Directive and even in some ways goes further than the RCD's minimum legal standards to gain compliance.

Of course this costs the builder money decreasing profits or increasing the end price of their boats, neither of these are very attractive at the moment.

 

Along with CBA membership comes automatic membership of the BMF. The BMF take an active interest in the trading activities of their members and also enforce their own Code of Practise too, this relates much more to business practise and how the member conducts it. A lot of builders do not want a third party with access to their trading practises or effectively telling them how to conduct their business!

 

So sitting on the fence I can see why there aren't many members, it's going to cost you money and you have to let on how you operate.

 

The main advantages are really to the customer but you have to consider that you are already protected under law in reference to the RCD and business law already aren't you?

 

If customers want boatbuilders to be members of trade organisations it will take customer pressure to do that the builders most certainly wont do it by choice.

 

 

So really it's down to the customers to decide if the CBA or BMF are of value or if El Gordo and his various departments are already providing you with protection against dodgie boats and practises through due legal process!

Edited February 7, 2008 by Gary Peacock

[Chickadee]

I guess there are alot of if's and buts. I personally am reasonably new to boating so will be looking at second hand. So over time i can find out what i like and what i dont and maybe personalise the boat i buy as and when i have the money.

Where as i think other people new to boating may prefer the supposed peace of mind that a new build would bring. This isnt really a option to me financially i also really think a second hand would be better for me.

 

I deffinetly notice alot of boats about that have had there price reduced, unfortunatly rather than making me more intrested it makes alarm bells ring. I always wonder if there might be another reason its reduced rather than it being over priced in the first place.

[StoneHenge]

I am so glad you got your boat Pav. I've not had chance until now to read through this.

 

You are right, when the chips are down, these guys really pull out all the stops the help. It's a rarity these days, and it's a wonderful thing.

 

I hope Marmaduke gets finished soon so you can begin to enjoy your boat!

[Dominic M]

I guess there are alot of if's and buts. I personally am reasonably new to boating so will be looking at second hand. So over time i can find out what i like and what i dont and maybe personalise the boat i buy as and when i have the money.

Where as i think other people new to boating may prefer the supposed peace of mind that a new build would bring. This isnt really a option to me financially i also really think a second hand would be better for me.

 

I deffinetly notice alot of boats about that have had there price reduced, unfortunatly rather than making me more intrested it makes alarm bells ring. I always wonder if there might be another reason its reduced rather than it being over priced in the first place.

 

1. Get a good surveyor - it's worth the £750 or thereabouts (including the docking fees) for the peace of mind. And if the surveyor misses something serious, they are liable, which is why their professional indemnity insurance premia are so expensive. How do you know who is a good surveyor? Ask, ask and ask again in the boating community.

 

2. See if you can manage to get an answer that rings true as to why it is being sold.

 

3. Providing you ensure that the proper paperwork is executed you know that by handing over the money you take possession of a boat - done and dusted.

[Chickadee]

1. Get a good surveyor - it's worth the £750 or thereabouts (including the docking fees) for the peace of mind. And if the surveyor misses something serious, they are liable, which is why their professional indemnity insurance premia are so expensive. How do you know who is a good surveyor? Ask, ask and ask again in the boating community.

 

2. See if you can manage to get an answer that rings true as to why it is being sold.

 

3. Providing you ensure that the proper paperwork is executed you know that by handing over the money you take possession of a boat - done and dusted.

 

I didnt know that they were liable but that makes sense. It will give me peace of mind when I get that far.

 

I supose there are alot of reason why a boat isnt selling and why a quicker sale might be needed.

 

I'm trying to be as open minded as I can but after having trouble with a seller not being honest I am being careful. I also dont want to travel 200 miles for nothing.

 

Sorry I have taken this thread off the point a bit.

[Glenn]

Well thanks for making that clear Chris.

Indeed shit happens so long live the law of the land to any boatbuilder who rips me off.

[chris w]

I didnt know that they were liable but that makes sense. It will give me peace of mind when I get that far.

 

 

For ANY professional under English Law, they are open to a charge of professional negligence if you can prove ALL three of the following:

 

1. They were acting in their professional capacity.

 

2. You were asking them for their professional advice.

 

3. It would be reasonable to assume that you would act on the advice given.

 

 

The advice does NOT have to be in exchange for a fee in order to meet the above criteria. I have successfully brought a claim against two professionals on the above basis (nothing to do with boating as it happens) and have won easily (both rapidly settled out-of-court).

 

To win damages, you have to show that you suffered a loss. (pain, suffering, trauma, financial etc) or else you have no case.

 

Chris

Edited February 8, 2008 by chris w

[Hypnorm]

Just waded ythrought this post glad that it has a happy ending , i cant imagine the stress that you have been through, and possibly still going through.

Best of luck.

[ackdaw]

glad things worked out for you pav , and nice to know the help was their , thankyou for sharing the bad times with us , most only wish to say how well we did , so your posts are a great help as were the otheir members to you , so thanks to them also.

its not all plain sailing , but im still tempted to get my feet wet , interesting points about price wise , markets etc . will be spending the next couple weeks on my garden or along the tow path , ah well some ones gotta do it ?. and work says if i dont use my holyidays they will take them off me , but i can work the wk end at double time , so that pays for the pub lunch ,

[mick1964]

pav where are you ? whats the latest please tell !

[Pav]

Quote name='mick1964' date='Feb 9 2008, 12:01 AM' post='203014']

pav where are you ? whats the latest please tell !

 

Hi Mick and everyone else,

 

It has been two weeks today since we discovered that Severn Valley had gone into Administration. Over these past 14 days we have gone through bouts of dispair, with thoughts of just selling Marmaduke as she is, cutting our losses and forgetting all about narrowboats and the canals. Then we have the other side of the coin, of being uplifted and encouraged to carry on, as we have witnessed all of the good points of the canal community spirit.

 

The main problem is obviously the money side. Having to pay for things which you have already laid out for, is a financial strain to put it mildly and gutting!

 

Next, comes the frustration of having to find all the items needed. We think we are on top of most of that now.

 

Third is that I am still 'smarting' at paying that final £26,400, only days before SVBC went bump! The Director was obviously aware that not a penny of that money would ever go towards our boat. Checking the BMF web site showed SVBC were still full members, and so one assumed remained a fairly safe company. Unfortunately, the BMF web site seemed not to have been updated, and I eventually plan to contact them for answers to a number of questions I have.

 

I say eventually, because for these past two weeks, My wife and I have not known what day it is.

 

We have needed to be out and about everyday attempting to get on top of things.

 

This is one of the reasons I have been absent from CWF. I have tried to keep my blog up to date, so that for those who are interested in following events, they can pop in to it.

 

The blog link is http://pavsnb.blogspot.com/

 

I also have to say Sorry for not contacting all the people individually who have been so supportative to us. Again, this is just down to time (or the lack of it!).

 

I hope that Marmaduke will be completed very soon, and this really horrible experiance can be put behind us.

 

Things today are so much better for us than they were a week ago, and I can not even begin to tell you how much better, than a fortnight ago.

 

So the hope is that time will eventually move us onto achieving our dream, despite the greed of one man.

 

In the meantime, something needs to be done to provide a safe method for those who wish to purchase a narrowboat.

 

Regards,

Pav.

Edited February 9, 2008 by Pav

[Hairy-Neil]

In the meantime, something needs to be done to provide a safe method for those who wish to purchase a narrowboat.

 

.

 

There is one. If you must make stage payments, pay only for work certified as completed, never advancements for work in hand.

[Gary Peacock]

There is one. If you must make stage payments, pay only for work certified as completed, never advancements for work in hand.

 

I know that sounds harsh but it's true I don't know of anybody loosing money by withholding payment until work is complete but their do seem to be an awful lot of people out of pocket for

paying in advance.

 

Once again the immortal words "Do not pay a boatbuilder for what you have not received!" reducing the boatbuilders company debt if they go pop will not help you.

Edited February 9, 2008 by Gary Peacock

[chris w]

The very fact that, in asking you for a large stage payment for work not yet done, you are funding their working capital should immediately sound alarm bells in your head. Walk away quickly.

 

With NBC, we paid a small deposit, made one stage payment when the hull was completed taking title to the same, with the balance on completion. We visited a few times to watch build progress and discuss details including a great trip to LB where we were made extremely welcome and spent most of the day chatting to the guys who were actually building and fitting-out the boat.

 

From nothing to a brand-new fantastic boat in 3 months with very low risk. For what more could one ask when ordering a new boat.

 

Chris

[GUMPY]

In the meantime, something needs to be done to provide a safe method for those who wish to purchase a narrowboat

 

One of the guys at work has just bought a new sailaway plus (to his spec) from Jonathan Wilson.

Deposit to secure the build slot £250

Payment on delivery £35,000 plus

So the most he could loose is £250

 

That seems safe to me.

 

Pity a few more builders cant operate this way, If I was buying a new boat I would insist that it was like that otherwise I would take my custom elsewhere.

 

Julian

[Gary Peacock]

One of the guys at work has just bought a new sailaway plus (to his spec) from Jonathan Wilson.

Deposit to secure the build slot £250

Payment on delivery £35,000 plus

So the most he could loose is £250

 

That seems safe to me.

 

Pity a few more builders cant operate this way, If I was buying a new boat I would insist that it was like that otherwise I would take my custom elsewhere.

 

Julian

 

That works for a cheap build but not for a £200K plus boat we got stitched up by a customer last year who simply decided she didn't like the interest rates the finance she had organised to pay for the boat would cost her, so she stopped paying owing us £69K for 3 months!

 

If we took payments on total completion we would probably have now about £650K outlayed and awaiting payment and that kind of money is just not in the business.

 

Another maybe not so well known fact from the other side of the fence is that sometimes customers actions don't help builders. Often they don't pay on time or think it is amusing to pay with post dated cheques or the 3.30PM payment on the last day before a bank holiday is another common tactic.

 

You also have the serial Mr or Mrs Cancellation who regularly places a deposit for a new boat and then after considering the present share price of their capital cancels at 2 weeks notice prior to the build starting demanding a 100% refund of the deposit this kind of customer as put paid to quite a few boatbuilders over the years.

Edited February 9, 2008 by Gary Peacock

[bargiepat]

Hi Pav, I would like to ask again about your surveyor, Did he agree with you paying that FINAL stage payment. He is meant to advise and if it was bad advice is he liable ?

Best wishes Patrick.

[Gary Peacock]

Hi Pav, I would like to ask again about your surveyor, Did he agree with you paying that FINAL stage payment. He is meant to advise and if it was bad advice is he liable ?

Best wishes Patrick.

 

I too find this strange.

 

We worked with three surveyors last year and I think all parties concerned were very happy with the relationship but the one thing that all the surveyors asked was that we should make reasonable provision for them to visit to confirm the state of build before they would instruct their client to release the funds.

 

I don't know if these particular surveyors were unusual in this but if you feel the need to employ a surveyor then I think confirmation of stage of build by them prior to making a payment would be very sensible.

Edited February 9, 2008 by Gary Peacock

[chris w]

That works for a cheap build but not for a £200K plus boat we got stitched up by a customer last year who simply decided she didn't like the interest rates the finance she had organised to pay for the boat would cost her, so she stopped paying owing us £69K for 3 months!

 

But Gary, with the correct contract, both you and the customer can be protected. Even if your contract didn't specifically cover you for the above default, Common Law would protect you. Given the facts are as stated, you can sue her if you built what she ordered and she then defaulted on payment.

 

Chris

[Pav]

There is one. If you must make stage payments, pay only for work certified as completed, never advancements for work in hand.

Hi Hairy Neil, Yes I totally agree with this, and looking back I was a complete mug! The thing is, I was not alone.The guy was a complete charmer, and I have now heard many stories from a number of other irate SVBC customers went to see the guy with a view to argue things out with him, only to come away having parted with yet another cheque!!Non of these people have seemed gullable, yet like me, still ended up paying over large sums of money.I have always said that I have never known anyone who could be so frustrating to deal with, and yet such a nice chap, able to smooth talk his way out of anything.When I first placed the order for the boat, because of the stage payment system, I had wanted to take out some form of insurance policy which would cover me for the cost of completing the build should the builder go bust. I was not able to find such a policy.I also think that if a builder is a member of a industry body, then they should be responsible for arranging, and paying for the completion of a boat, in the event of one of their members going out of business. This is on the same basis of booking a holiday with an ABTA travel agent. If they go broke, ABTA step in to look after the customer.Regards,Pav.

The very fact that, in asking you for a large stage payment for work not yet done, you are funding their working capital should immediately sound alarm bells in your head. Walk away quickly.With NBC, we paid a small deposit, made one stage payment when the hull was completed taking title to the same, with the balance on completion. We visited a few times to watch build progress and discuss details including a great trip to LB where we were made extremely welcome and spent most of the day chatting to the guys who were actually building and fitting-out the boat. From nothing to a brand-new fantastic boat in 3 months with very low risk. For what more could one ask when ordering a new boat. Chris

Hi Chris,To walk away quickly is not an easy option when you have alredy laid out thousands of pounds.Unfortunately, when we were looking to order the boat, every builder that we initially contacted all worked on the stage payments basis.Regards,Pav.

Hi Pav, I would like to ask again about your surveyor, Did he agree with you paying that FINAL stage payment. He is meant to advise and if it was bad advice is he liable ? Best wishes Patrick.

Hi Patrick,It was never a part of my arrangement with our surveyor that he give the go ahead or not to pay any of the payments to the builder, so there is absolutely no blame which can be attached to the surveyor at all.We employed him purely to oversee the quality of the work. Throughout his inspections, there were never any real issues regarding the work, certainly never anything that would have prevented me from making a payment.Obviously If anything regards quality etc. had of been flagged up by the surveyor, then I would have witheld any payments until rectification had been made.Regards,Pav. Edited February 10, 2008 by Pav

[chris w]

Hi Chris,To walk away quickly is not an easy option when you have alredy laid out thousands of pounds.Unfortunately, when we were looking to order the boat, every builder that we initially contacted all worked on the stage payments basis.

 

Regards

 

Pav.

 

I appreciate this is horses and stable doors, but the idea is not to lay out thousands of pounds until you have a firm contract in place that doesn't give you unnecessary or unreasonable financial exposure. If they say they only work on a stage payment basis, either tell them that you don't or walk away. Someone will build you a nice boat on equitable terms as per our experience with the New Boat Company.

 

I find many (non-boating) contractors ask for 33% or even 50% up front. I always tell them I'll give them 10% deposit, 85% on completion and the remaining 5% after 30 days (the latter to ensure any teething troubles get sorted immediately). If they don't accept it, I go elsewhere, although it is extremely rare they refuse to do business on these terms. NBC only wanted a £1000 deposit.

 

Chris

Edited February 10, 2008 by chris w

[Dylan]

This words don't help Pav, who has my deepest sympathy but:

We paid £1000 deposit on a sailaway, and paid the balance when we witnessed it floating. I too will only operate in this way. The other thing that may help future purchasers is to pay by Visa or similar for any stage payments.

[Glenn]

After reading Chris's post we are now wondering if LB payment terms should ring alarm bells.

http://www.liverpoolboatco.co.uk/id21.html any thoughts anyone and any names of builders who could do a 58 footer sailaway for around 23k without a 6k deposit 3 weeks before the build starts?

Im assuming the 6k is the cost of something in regard to their business overheads.