Extended hull etc

[JULIEBROWNRIGBY]

Hi 

new to this group and canal boats and seeking advice please . I viewed a 1996 John white boat yesterday which has a Liverpool hull. I verbally agreed to buy the boat and have a survey done . During the conversation with the sellers it was casually mentioned that the boat had been extended . This was after agreement to purchase I add . I did mention “cut and shut” however I’m looking for advice please . Would this be a problem if done properly ? As far as I am currently aware it was done a few years ago . Probably from a 40 ish boat to a 57 . The current owners bought it in 2019 as a 57ft and it sailed through its survey I’m told . Working in construction I do understand about steel etc although I gather that with boats there can be issues if not welded correctly etc . Any advice before I also pay out for another wasted survey would help . 2 surveys on potential boats failed and costs building . 
thank you 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Welcome to the forum. Extending steel narrowboats isn't uncommon and is an acceptable thing to do. Perfectly fine, if done right and a lot of boat yards do it. A survey will show up any problems. It isn't a run away, don't look back situation, like it is with a car cut and shut. 

I know of one person, who was also a boat builder, who built his boat to 57', go anywhere dimensions, then extended it to 70' after having his fill of the Northern canals. 

Aesthetically, extended hulls can look a little weird sometimes. The bow and stern lengths should ideally be in proportion to the cabin section. If the cabin is extended, the bow and stern can look stunted in comparison. If your boat is OK in this regard, or you aren't concerned, then go for it. 

[JULIEBROWNRIGBY]

16 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Welcome to the forum. Extending steel narrowboats isn't uncommon and is an acceptable thing to do. Perfectly fine, if done right and a lot of boat yards do it. A survey will show up any problems. It isn't a run away, don't look back situation, like it is with a car cut and shut. 

I know of one person, who was also a boat builder, who built his boat to 57', go anywhere dimensions, then extended it to 70' after having his fill of the Northern canals. 

Aesthetically, extended hulls can look a little weird sometimes. The bow and stern lengths should ideally be in proportion to the cabin section. If the cabin is extended, the bow and stern can look stunted in comparison. If your boat is OK in this regard, or you aren't concerned, then go for it. 

Thank you . It’s my first boat purchase and it will be my home so I need to be a 100% sure . Just a bit nervous . It wasn’t obvious where it was extended if I’m honest . And I suppose having been married to someone in the car industry I’m wary of changes to steel etc 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

3 minutes ago, JULIEBROWNRIGBY said:

Thank you . It’s my first boat purchase and it will be my home so I need to be a 100% sure . Just a bit nervous . It wasn’t obvious where it was extended if I’m honest . And I suppose having been married to someone in the car industry I’m wary of changes to steel etc 

The steel is a lot thicker than in cars, where weight is important. You can't dent a typical steel narrowboat by walking on the roof, for example.

[alan_fincher]

As Jen said, it is fairly common, and doesn't need to sound alarm bells.

That said, a bit more caution and "due diligence" would be wise, as some who extend boats have been known to cock it up - I guess the greatest risk is of ending up with something at least slightly banana shaped!  DEFINITELY get a full survey.

You can to some extent check yourself by standing at both the front and back, and sighting along the cabin lines.  If it doesn't look absolutely straight, then it probably isn't!  Do all the handrails / grab rails line up, with no obvious misalignment.  Are the gunwales without any "wobbles" along their full lenth?

A trained eye will be able to show you which bit of the boat was "new", but I wouln't necessarily be able to spot this.  A boat on a mooring next to us got extended a few years back, and try as I could, I was able to spot how.

Good luck with your purchase, and enjoy your new life afloat!

Edited August 31 by alan_fincher

[JULIEBROWNRIGBY]

Thank you . I guess my concerns are the welded joints below the water line . Being a construction professional I know that with steel the joints are only as good as the welder ! I don’t really want the expense of having it surveyed if problems are found . I’ve already had two failed surveys . There was no joint obvious above the water line . It had a re con engine in 2011 but I don’t know whether that was because of extended prop etc or engine failure generally . Hull has been regularly blacked and it’s a clean boat . However one piece of steel the whole length is preferable to two welded together 

[Tonka]

15 minutes ago, JULIEBROWNRIGBY said:

Thank you . I guess my concerns are the welded joints below the water line . Being a construction professional I know that with steel the joints are only as good as the welder ! I don’t really want the expense of having it surveyed if problems are found . I’ve already had two failed surveys . There was no joint obvious above the water line . It had a re con engine in 2011 but I don’t know whether that was because of extended prop etc or engine failure generally . Hull has been regularly blacked and it’s a clean boat . However one piece of steel the whole length is preferable to two welded together 

Where do they  get steel 60 to 70 feet long to make it in one piece?

Edited August 31 by Tonka
Spelling

[Batavia]

37 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Where do they  get steel 60 to 70 feet long to make it in one piece?

Coiled plate!  A 10 tonne coil of 10mm x 2 metre plate would be about 60 metres long, a 20 tonne coil twice that.

however, I don't think that many narrowboat builders have decoiling facilities!

[BEngo]

52 minutes ago, JULIEBROWNRIGBY said:

However one piece of steel the whole length is preferable to two welded together 

Every steel canal boat is made up of many steel pieces welded together.  Taking a typical 57ft boat, the base is usually at least 3 pieces, with similar for each side and the cabin. The bow may be anything from 2 pieces to tens of strips. Nearly all canal boat building welder/fabricators are competent so dont worry on that score.  The surveyor should pick up any really poor welding.

 

 There are two questions with stretching:

 

Who did it?   A competent stretcher will do a job you can barely detect.  The original builder is often a good bet and they willl know their own foibles.

 

Is the boat still straight, not banana shaped, or worse a zig zag?

You can ask your surveyor specifically to check this.

[alan_fincher]

1 hour ago, JULIEBROWNRIGBY said:

 Being a construction professional I know that with steel the joints are only as good as the welder ! I don’t really want the expense of having it surveyed if problems are found . I’ve already had two failed surveys . 

But th only reaonably guaanteed way of finding a problem in an extended boat is by having a survey.

I know repeated failed surveys heavily eat into funds you would rather spend on the right boat, but in my view it would (in my opinion) be very bad idea not to survey this one.

As others have said, no typical narrowboat will avoid having several joins along its length.  I would say at least 3 plates in a 57 foot boat, (so two joins).  However if it has been stretched, unless it was cut on an existing join, then the new plate(s) will have added at least 2 more joins.  If it's a "good" stretch, then the original joins will be largely indistinguishable from any new ones.

[MtB]

2 hours ago, JULIEBROWNRIGBY said:

I don’t really want the expense of having it surveyed if problems are found .

 

Surely that is the whole point of a survey?

 

If they find problems, it was well worth getting the survey!

 

One way to avoid the expense of a survey is to buy a house instead. 

 

Oh, hang on....! 

 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, MtB said:

Surely that is the whole point of a survey?

 

If they find problems, it was well worth getting the survey!

 

But one should always be aware that a survey is no guarantee of all of the problems being found - a survey I had didn't identify the £20000+ of work that needed to be doing to make the boat 'usable'.

 

AND, no comeback on the surveyor - Caveat Emptor was coined by the Romans especially for boat buyers !

[JULIEBROWNRIGBY]

I would never buy a boat without a survey and yes I understand about in going maintenance etc . However I’ve already spent a lot of money on two other surveys in failed boats . It’s eating into funds that could be spent elsewhere . I do believe I should have been told the boat had been stretched before I verbally had agreed a purchase rather than it come up in casual conversation after . I travelled for over 4 hrs to view the boat and probably would not had this information been available at the outset 

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But one should always be aware that a survey is no guarantee of all of the problems being found - a survey I had didn't identify the £20000+ of work that needed to be doing to make the boat 'usable'.

 

AND, no comeback on the surveyor - Caveat Emptor was coined by the Romans especially for boat buyers !

 

Absolutely.

 

If someone is so risk averse they demand a survey finds *EVERYTHING* then there is a good chance they will be sorely disappointed. 

 

I notice there is a type of person who tries to eliminate every last scintilla of risk when buying a boat, just as some do when buying a house. With neither is this possible but especially not with a second hand boat. Even with a new boat (or house!) there will be a snagging list of faults as long as yer arm.

 

 

[LadyG]

The trouble is, that one is full of enthusiasm for a boat when looking, the rose tinted glasses seem to be justified, it's all going great guns, then someone drops a clanger. 

If you can't take the hit, you can walk away.

You could make sn offer, if that is going to compensate you for the disappointment.

I've had something similar happen with my house sale, but I was too far down the road to unwind. It still grinds, but that's one of life's ups and downs.

Edited August 31 by LadyG

[JULIEBROWNRIGBY]

Houses I understand as that’s my job . I’m not looking for perfection just honesty and to some extent reassurance . No different to house survey . I have been told by a broker that some finance companies won’t loan on a stretched boat . I don’t need finance but it does make you think k about the risk . I feel strongly that I should have been told this in the first place . Extensions to houses are inspected and have to have building regulations approval . What competency checks are in place for extensions to boats ? I’m a building inspector and even I. My job we have to jump through hoops to demonstrate competency . 

[Peanut]

50 minutes ago, JULIEBROWNRIGBY said:

 What competency checks are in place for extensions to boats ?

 

You might well ask. But what competency checks are in place to build boats ?  Other than a maybe a coded welder, I believe there are none, and no one checks the welder either. Perhaps a time served electrician, and a registered gas installer, for the fit out.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, JULIEBROWNRIGBY said:

I have been told by a broker that some finance companies won’t loan on a stretched boat .

 

I'm beginning to wonder if you believe everything an estate agent tells you too!

 

Finance companies don't give a fig what you spend the money on which they lend you, provided you pay it back. 

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, JULIEBROWNRIGBY said:

What competency checks are in place for extensions to boats ?

 

None, if only because lenders don't accept boats as security for loans. 

 

 

[David Mack]

11 hours ago, JULIEBROWNRIGBY said:

I guess my concerns are the welded joints below the water line

Any steel narrow boat has multiple welds below the water line, whether stretched or not. Why get hung up about the stretch welds specifically? Boat stretches are mostly done by the same sort of people as build boats - their welding might be better or worse. And unstretched boats are certainly not immune from weld defects. There have been stories on the forum before of newly built boats which leaked from the moment they were craned in due to an omitted length of weld.  And I have come across a couple of boats that started leaking after being rammed at speed into solid concrete, springing a welded joint.

11 hours ago, JULIEBROWNRIGBY said:

I don’t really want the expense of having it surveyed if problems are found . I’ve already had two failed surveys

Having had two 'failed" surveys (a survey is just a report on condition - there is no pass or fail), were the reasons these two boats 'failed' ones which with hindsight you could have seen for yourself, without needing a survey? Buying your first boat is a learning curve, and the two bad experiences you have had should put you in a better position to judge the next boat that comes along. Taking a second pair of eyes with you on a viewing is always worth it, especially a more experienced boat owner, but even another newbie can see things you won't.

And if you want advice on a particular boat, ask on here with a link to the advert, and you will get a cross section of opinions, and maybe someone will actually know the boat.

2 hours ago, JULIEBROWNRIGBY said:

Extensions to houses are inspected and have to have building regulations approval . What competency checks are in place for extensions to boats ? I’m a building inspector and even I. My job we have to jump through hoops to demonstrate competency . 

Boats are different. Narrow boat builders self-certify that new boats comply with the Recreational Craft Regulations, but there are no checks, either on the competency of the boatbuilder or whether the boat actually fully complies with the RCR.  In theory stretching a boat to which the RCR apply probably requires a Post Construction Assessment under the RCR, but I imagine this rarely happens.

It's definitely a different world to hiusebuilding.

[MtB]

20 minutes ago, David Mack said:

And if you want advice on a particular boat, ask on here with a link to the advert, and you will get a cross section of opinions, and maybe someone will actually know the boat.

 

I'd second this. A boat advert examined and pulled apart here will give you an excellent grounding on all the stuff to look for long before you get to the point of shelling out on a survey. Beware though, the advert deconstructions that happen on here will have you believing even the most astoundingly good buy is a disaster area best avoided! 

 

 

[Stroudwater1]

This was not uncommon a few years ago. Many boats were then built fairly short, like the one you are looking at. People then realised that 57 foot gave a lot more room and still could go anywhere. So a number were stretched by their owners happy in all  other ways with their boat.
 

 I really wouldn’t worry about the welding  aspect, as others have said. Totally different from cars where aerodynamics and stability are much more important with the speed they travel. 
 

Dont read the whole thread but here’s an example of one which I think sold a year or so later. You can’t see easily see where it was done.
 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

41 minutes ago, David Mack said:

In theory stretching a boat to which the RCR apply probably requires a Post Construction Assessment under the RCR, but I imagine this rarely happens.

It's definitely a different world to hiusebuilding.

 

But, being an old boat, it predates the RCD so is not covered by the Post Construction Assesment 'rules'.

Edited August 31 by Alan de Enfield

[Bacchus]

14 hours ago, JULIEBROWNRIGBY said:

I would never buy a boat without a survey and yes I understand about in going maintenance etc . However I’ve already spent a lot of money on two other surveys in failed boats . It’s eating into funds that could be spent elsewhere . I do believe I should have been told the boat had been stretched before I verbally had agreed a purchase rather than it come up in casual conversation after . I travelled for over 4 hrs to view the boat and probably would not had this information been available at the outset 

 

Bottom line, if you're not happy, walk away. There is plenty of good advice above on how it is common and sometimes even experienced boaters struggle to tell from a cursory inspection, but you have to feel fundamentally happy and it doesn't sound as if you do. Whilst you may not have traveled if the seller had mentioned the modification, (s)he has told you before you have got your wallet out for a survey, and whilst you have "verbally" agreed, a verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on, and there are many boats for sale (I just put a basic "narrow-boat with a min length of 57'" into Apollo Duck and there are 598 hits...)

[Tonka]

12 hours ago, JULIEBROWNRIGBY said:

Houses I understand as that’s my job . I’m not looking for perfection just honesty and to some extent reassurance . No different to house survey . I have been told by a broker that some finance companies won’t loan on a stretched boat . I don’t need finance but it does make you think k about the risk . I feel strongly that I should have been told this in the first place . Extensions to houses are inspected and have to have building regulations approval . What competency checks are in place for extensions to boats ? I’m a building inspector and even I. My job we have to jump through hoops to demonstrate competency . 

Not a Rics member by any chance 

[Bee]

Plenty of bigger boats have been lengthened then shortened then lengthened again. A few years ago I saw a barge on a French canal that was originally over 39 metres passing along a 39 metre canal one half at a time. Between the locks it was strapped back together and off it went to the next lock. Think it was destined to be a static houseboat and rejoined somewhere. Anyway a good many 'historic' narrowboats are the front of one boat and the back of another. I wouldn't worry about it. Somewhere on You Tube I found a piece showing a steel boat being widened (!) Think a piece was let in either side of the centreline!

Edited September 1 by Bee