Adverc Question

[Theo]

I am about to reinstall my Adverc after an alternator change.  It's lots of years since I originally installed it (It worked beautifully).  I find that the new alternator is regulated to 14.8V but my batteries need 14.2V.  I can't remember if the Adverc will sort that out or do I need a new regulator?  The alternator is a Bosch. 90A IIRC.

 

TIA

 

Nick

[nicknorman]

No the adverc can't decrease the voltage, only increase it. What makes you think that your batteries want/need 14.2v? It seems quite low. Unless they are Li?

[Tony Brooks]

10 hours ago, Theo said:

I am about to reinstall my Adverc after an alternator change.  It's lots of years since I originally installed it (It worked beautifully).  I find that the new alternator is regulated to 14.8V but my batteries need 14.2V.  I can't remember if the Adverc will sort that out or do I need a new regulator?  The alternator is a Bosch. 90A IIRC.

 

TIA

 

Nick

 

I understand that Advercs can be wired to totally control the alternator with the inbuilt regulator disconnected, but have never done it and as Advercs boosts parts of the absorption charging to above 14.2V then unless your Adverc is adjustable I am not sure if that would work. WE have a member who knows how to do this, but can't remember who to tag.

 

I am also trying to work out what type of battery has a maximum charging voltage of 14.2V unless it is a very old AGM or just possibly another type of sealed gel battery. Lead antinomy flooded open cell batteries should cope with 14.8 volt max but at the downside of needing fairly frequent topping up, open cell flooded lead calcium should also cope. At 14.8V you don't really need the Adverc. What was the Adverc boosting the voltage to with the old alternator.

 

The other option is to see if a 14.2 to 14.4V regulator is available for the new alternator.

9 hours ago, nicknorman said:

No the adverc can't decrease the voltage, only increase it. What makes you think that your batteries want/need 14.2v? It seems quite low. Unless they are Li?

 

and if they are, what advantage does the OP think the Adverc will give him.

 

Back in the 60s and early 70s alternator regulators tended to be set to 13.8 to 14.2V, but they have been set at 14.2 to 14.4V for years and some go up to14.6 or 14.8 when the charging current is getting very close to zero.

Edited Thursday at 06:35 by Tony Brooks

[blackrose]

10 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I understand that Advercs can be wired to totally control the alternator with the inbuilt regulator disconnected, but have never done it and as Advercs boosts parts of the absorption charging to above 14.2V then unless your Adverc is adjustable I am not sure if that would work. WE have a member who knows how to do this, but can't remember who to tag.

 

 

I thought all external alternator regulators had to be installed to bypass the alternator's inbuilt regulator, or is that not the case with Advercs?

[nicknorman]

5 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

I thought all external alternator regulators had to be installed to bypass the alternator's inbuilt regulator, or is that not the case with Advercs?

“Proper” regulators such as the Wakespeed, Zeus or Mastervolt Alpha are replacement regulators, ie the original regulator is removed or at least isolated, But “supplemental” regulators (boosters) such as the Adverc or Sterling act in parallel with the existing regulator such that they can only increase field current and hence output, they can’t decrease it below what the original regulator is doing.

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

I thought all external alternator regulators had to be installed to bypass the alternator's inbuilt regulator, or is that not the case with Advercs?

 

The Adverc and Kestrel normally sit in parallel with the inbuilt regulator. I think the Sterling and others do the same.

 

Remember during the bulk charge phase the voltage is controlled by the design of the rotor and stator plus the magnetic interaction because as the current rises the maximum voltage the alternator can produce falls. Hence, a charging voltage of a bit over 13 volts at revs when the battery is flat, which gradually rises as the battery charges and the current drops off. During this phase the inbuilt regulator and any external regulator is totally unable to exert any control over the charging voltage.

 

Only once the charging current has dropped enough for the charging voltage to rise to close to the regulated voltage can the regulator, internal or external exert any control (words chosen to try to reflect what Nick calls the soft voltage control).

 

Only at that point, which is the start of the acceptance phase, can an external regulator boost the changing voltage to a higher value than the internal regulator is set to. I suspect that you may have been taken in by the graphs and fine words the external regulator marketeers like to use. Bototm line is that during bulk no regulator can affect the charging volatge.

4 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

they can’t decrease it below what the original regulator is doing.

 

which is basically providing maximum current to the rotor and that can only produce the maximum voltage the alternate design allows under that circumstance.

[blackrose]

4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I suspect that you may have been taken in by the graphs and fine words the external regulator marketeers like to use. Bototm line is that during bulk no regulator can affect the charging volatge.

 

 

No, I haven't been taken in by anything, nor seen the graphs you refer to. My lack of knowledge on how a regulator works doesn't equate to being in some way duped or deceived. It's nothing more exciting than standard ignorance I'm afraid, based on how I thought external regulators worked after installing one many years ago

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, blackrose said:

 

No, I haven't been taken in by anything, nor seen the graphs you refer to. My lack of knowledge on how a regulator works doesn't equate to being in some way duped or deceived. It's nothing more exciting than standard ignorance I'm afraid, based on how I thought external regulators worked after installing one many years ago

 

I know lots of people think the same as you did and the only reason I can see is that the marketing material often, if not always, implies the external regulator has an effect on the bulk phase voltage, because they always seem to include it in their graphs and don't make it clear that voltage has nothing to do with their external regulator. Thus, the belief that it does get passed on.

[Peanut]

With a slight swerve, I read on a recent post that fitting a battery to battery charger to the start battery to charge the house bank, would ensure that once the start battery was full, then the alternator would be kept busy until the house bank was satisfied. Would this be a better approach than fiddling with the alternator, and at a lower cost than a new smart regulator? (I know the OP already has one.)

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, Peanut said:

With a slight swerve, I read on a recent post that fitting a battery to battery charger to the start battery to charge the house bank, would ensure that once the start battery was full, then the alternator would be kept busy until the house bank was satisfied. Would this be a better approach than fiddling with the alternator, and at a lower cost than a new smart regulator? (I know the OP already has one.)

 

I think that misunderstands how B2Bs work, and also that their main useful application is in charging LFP (lithium) house banks with standard alternators.

 

Baring faults or long periods of lay, the start battery will ALWAYS be all but fully charged, so there is no need to worry about priority charging of the start battery. B2Bs also waste a bit ff the potential charge to heat. They have a place but not in my view on simple LA charging systems.

 

Advercs and any other external additional alternator controllers came about years ago when alternator regulators were set to 13.8 to 14.2 V and also to try to "hide" losses in passive diode charge splitters and straight forward faulty/inadequate charging circuits.

 

As the OP says his Adverc worked beautifully I am forced to wonder if it was covering up other charging faults or his original alternator had a low voltage regulator. If his new alternator has a higher current output his charging circuit may well need attention, or he MIGHT be able to rely on it to reduce the maximum charging voltage to closer to what he feels he needs.

[Peanut]

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I think that misunderstands how B2Bs work, and also that their main useful application is in charging LFP (lithium) house banks with standard alternators.

 

Baring faults or long periods of lay, the start battery will ALWAYS be all but fully charged, so there is no need to worry about priority charging of the start battery. B2Bs also waste a bit ff the potential charge to heat. They have a place but not in my view on simple LA charging systems.

 

Advercs and any other external additional alternator controllers came about years ago when alternator regulators were set to 13.8 to 14.2 V and also to try to "hide" losses in passive diode charge splitters and straight forward faulty/inadequate charging circuits.

 

As the OP says his Adverc worked beautifully I am forced to wonder if it was covering up other charging faults or his original alternator had a low voltage regulator. If his new alternator has a higher current output his charging circuit may well need attention, or he MIGHT be able to rely on it to reduce the maximum charging voltage to closer to what he feels he needs.

 

I think the poster in that thread was using a split charge relay, which also had an insertion loss.

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Peanut said:

 

I think the poster in that thread was using a split charge relay, which also had an insertion loss.

 

Yes, but nowhere near what a passive diode splitter causes, as long as it is adequately sized for the charging current.

[David Mack]

35 minutes ago, Peanut said:

With a slight swerve, I read on a recent post that fitting a battery to battery charger to the start battery to charge the house bank, would ensure that once the start battery was full, then the alternator would be kept busy until the house bank was satisfied. Would this be a better approach than fiddling with the alternator, and at a lower cost than a new smart regulator? (I know the OP already has one.)

A B2B will do that when you have different battery chemistries ( e.g LA start battery and LFP domestic), which shouldn't be connected directly. But if both batteries are LA then a voltage controlled relay will do the job just as well.

[Tony Brooks]

44 minutes ago, Peanut said:

With a slight swerve, I read on a recent post that fitting a battery to battery charger to the start battery to charge the house bank, would ensure that once the start battery was full, then the alternator would be kept busy until the house bank was satisfied. Would this be a better approach than fiddling with the alternator, and at a lower cost than a new smart regulator? (I know the OP already has one.)

 

The other thing to consider that if an external alternator controller fails it will either have no effect on the basic operation of the alternator or it will send it uncontrolled, in the later case disconnecting just one low current cable make it inoperative. 

 

If a B2B fails then either it makes the two banks one big bank, risking flattening the start battery, or you get no domestic bank charging. In that case to restore some kind of charging you will need to either use a heavy jump lead or transfer larger cables that connect direct to batteries form one side of the device to the other, with the attendant risk of short circuit and fire. Whichever way you do it, it would have to be undone when you stop charging to preserve the start battery charge.

[Peanut]

Just now, Tony Brooks said:

 

The other thing to consider that if an external alternator controller fails it will either have no effect on the basic operation of the alternator or it will send it uncontrolled, in the later case disconnecting just one low current cable make it inoperative. 

 

If a B2B fails then either it makes the two banks one big bank, risking flattening the start battery, or you get no domestic bank charging. In that case to restore some kind of charging you will need to either use a heavy jump lead or transfer larger cables that connect direct to batteries form one side of the device to the other, with the attendant risk of short circuit and fire. Whichever way you do it, it would have to be undone when you stop charging to preserve the start battery charge.

Thank you.

 

[nicknorman]

3 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

No, I haven't been taken in by anything, nor seen the graphs you refer to. My lack of knowledge on how a regulator works doesn't equate to being in some way duped or deceived. It's nothing more exciting than standard ignorance I'm afraid, based on how I thought external regulators worked after installing one many years ago

However it would be easy to be taken in  by Sterling's words, which talk about "going to float" or somesuch, but when you read the very small print it says that this is assuming the alternator has a very low basic regulating voltage such as 13.8v, which no vaguely modern alternator does have.

[Theo]

23 hours ago, nicknorman said:

No the adverc can't decrease the voltage, only increase it. What makes you think that your batteries want/need 14.2v? It seems quite low. Unless they are Li?

I have attached the datasheet for my batteries.  The reason that I am using these particular ones is that I got them dirt cheap as they were being replaced by new ones having done very little work during their previous employment.

Red batteries.pdf

Here are the installation instructions for the Adverc.  They provide the rationale for the design.

 

When we bought Theodora just 20 years ago now, she was fitted with a Kestrel.  Now that was a battery boiler, delivering over 15V as the batteries approached full charge.

 

Thanks for all the info chaps.  I will read it with more attention later.  Up until now we have been pressed for time getting Theodora back to her home mooring at Tardebigge Old Wharf from Long Itchington.  Just made it though Hatton before it closed.  Now we are at Hockley Heath we can relax a bit.

 

 

Ah...

 

Forgot to add the Adverc doc.  Here it is.

043119_Adverc_installation.pdf

[Tony Brooks]

40 minutes ago, Theo said:

I have attached the datasheet for my batteries.  The reason that I am using these particular ones is that I got them dirt cheap as they were being replaced by new ones having done very little work during their previous employment.

 

Thanks for that, I have been studying it but can only find a recommended float voltage, not a maximum charging voltage, maybe I missed it, but I don't think so.

 

They seem to be AGMs, and with pure lead plates would expect them to have a gassing voltage similar to lead antinomy, rather than the higher value for lead calcium, so being sealed it is probably a good idea to look for a regulator with a lower regulated voltage. Although we have been told it is possible to make the Adverc work without the alternator regulator, i could not see anything about it in the manual you posted, hence suggesting looking for a different regulator for the alternator, that is as long as you are totally sure that 14.2V maximum voltage is actually true.

[Theo]

I fitted the old Bosch with a variable regulator on the advice of a kind member of CWF.  I fitted it in 2008 but haven't found another one one on the interweb yet.  I'll have a look in a bit..

 

In the meantime, thanks as always for all the helpful comments.

 

Nearly back to Tardebigge.  Wast Hill Tunnel done, Shortwood to go.  Sunshine and beautiful countryside.  What more could we want?  Rain and lots of it but not too heavy and overnight only please. 🙏

[Eeyore]

Is this a single alternator setup with either a split charge relay or split charge diodes?

[Theo]

4 hours ago, Eeyore said:

Is this a single alternator setup with either a split charge relay or split charge diodes?

A single alternator (Bosch 70A or, possibly 90A)  Looking at the output when the batteries have been discharged to 80% I reckon it's likely to be a 70A jobbie.

 

Smartgauge coupled with Smartbank advanced split charge so split charge relay.

[Eeyore]

Was just thinking that one side of a split charge diode in the domestic charging line  would sort the voltage. No idea how that would affect the smart gauge advanced setup. Perhaps I’ll try reading the instructions for the one I have in the drawer!

[Wanderer Vagabond]

Have to say that I've kind of lost faith in Advercs. Back in 2013 when, I got the boat, I was advised to have one installed as the batteries were dead. I'd left a cratch light on overnight and the following morning the domestic batteries were dead. The 'marine engineer' at the boatyard I went to (bear in mind I was totally green about the working of a narrowboat then) told me that the alternator had failed and I needed a new one along with this Adverc rubbish. Six months later the alternator he installed failed and since then I've fitted something like 4 more domestic alternators (about 1 every couple of years, I'm getting quite good at it now) I'd always put it down to poor ventilation in the engine hole causing the alternator to overheat and fail. On the last occasion (about 3 years ago now) I disconnected the Adverc and didn't bother to reconnect it, alternator still currently working fine (tempting fate, I suppose I'll head out when I get back to the boat and it'll fail). 

 

I kind of get the feeling that the Adverc did me no good whatsoever.....or it could just be coincidence 

[Lady M]

I have heard that the Adverc can be a bit hard on the alternator but we are only on our third alternator in as many decades.

[Tony Brooks]

8 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I kind of get the feeling that the Adverc did me no good whatsoever.....or it could just be coincidence

 

With modern alternators and a properly specified and installed charging system I think your feeling is correct, the modern alternators will provide a higher voltage than the standard Adverc can. They were excellent in the days of 13.8 to 14.3V alternators, and still are good if you are using a passive diode splitter (unless you have managed to get a battery sensed alternator), or have undersized/resistive charge wiring causing voltage drop. In my view the same goes for the other makes of "digital" controllers as well. 

 

I did the same as you when I needed a new alternator that was regulated at 14.6V.

7 minutes ago, Lady M said:

I have heard that the Adverc can be a bit hard on the alternator but we are only on our third alternator in as many decades.

 

Any external controller will make it work harder so the alternator gets the opportunity to work harder and this hotter, but at least the Adverc only boosts the voltage (and thus current) in 15-minute cycles, so the alternator gets a chance to cool down.