An open letter from CaRT’s CEO Campbell Robb.

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Tonka said:

The old boy who was removed from the K & A after a load of years was advised by the NBTA and his waste was all over the towpath. Or am I mistaken

 

You know he was a member? And/or that they advised him to put his waste on the towpath?

[BoatingLifeUpNorth2]

48 minutes ago, Tonka said:

But they wouldn't ĺike to walk along a towpath where the parasitic scum of the NBTA are moored and deposited all of their waste on the towpath

I wouldn’t know which boaters are in which group. Not really interested in being part of a boating group, just like to get on with it and watch them come and go off the water, most are never long term

  But it does hack me off when I moor up, then walk 10 yards to see obvious parts of boating interiors just thrown in the hedge row in the middle of nowhere☹️

[David Mack]

3 hours ago, Ronaldo47 said:

I seem to recall reading that the main reason that the Llangollen canal was kept navigable,  was that the guy in charge pointed out that, due to its many remote parts, access by boat was the only practical option for any repairs that might become necessary for it to continue to supply water to the Midlands. 

That was probably true at the time it was legally abandoned as a navigation under the 1944 LMS Railway Act, but isn't the case now. You only have to look at how BW and CRT have dealt with breaches and other major works in more recent years - rent land off a farmer, create a temporary access route, reinstate the land when the work is done.

According to an article in WW some years ago the Huddersfield Narrow was also retained in navigable condition after the '44 Act for the same reason. It was only after Aickman, Rolt and others forced a passage in 1948 (?), that the instruction went out to find the worst condition gate on the canal and replace it with a concrete stank.

[Stroudwater1]

4 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

Several stand alone canals can be closed without impacting too much on the network, the K&,A, HNC, HBC, extremities of the BCN etc.

 

What is your solution to not enough money to maintain all of the network?

We’ve been through this before though,  the HNC can’t be closed due to conditions involved with the millennium funding. In that case closing the HBC makes no sense, and it’s a short canal anyway. Extremities of the BCN feed the network via Chasewater. 
 

Some of the K&A is canalised river and the effort to maintain that would be significant whether boaters were on it or not. Besides the Caen Hill locks Dundas etc do get interest from the public. It’s also a popular route for hire boats.
 

In any case, closing canals that many  volunteers laboured for years on is just the wrong way of addressing problems. Threatening it to raise the precariousness of things is understandable though.

 

The solution is obviously more resources and what’s available used wisely. One thing CRT do need to do is to chase boaters/ vehicles who damage locks and bridges to claim back on insurance for repairs. This seems not to happen even with video footage. More use of CCTV could help.
 

Some things CRT have to do is nonsensical. Planning permission to repair the Tardebigge top lock, likewise for many lock gate replacements, Braunston for example, each time. What a waste of time resource and effort for councils and CRT.
 

We’ve also been over H&S many times.  The consensus seems that the cost of H&S is worth it. I’m far from convinced but remain in the minority. Audlem locks off their hinges  for example could and used to be fixed with an Tirfor winch and experience. That repair cost far more and took much longer as various lifting equipment and contractors came in as it’s all safer, apparently. It may possibly be but the danger in making this lifting equipment, mining resources, use of fossil fuels to get there plus contract negs all have hidden costs too. 

[cuthound]

23 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

We’ve been through this before though,  the HNC can’t be closed due to conditions involved with the millennium funding. In that case closing the HBC makes no sense, and it’s a short canal anyway. Extremities of the BCN feed the network via Chasewater. 
 

Some of the K&A is canalised river and the effort to maintain that would be significant whether boaters were on it or not. Besides the Caen Hill locks Dundas etc do get interest from the public. It’s also a popular route for hire boats.
 

In any case, closing canals that many  volunteers laboured for years on is just the wrong way of addressing problems. Threatening it to raise the precariousness of things is understandable though.

 

The solution is obviously more resources and what’s available used wisely. One thing CRT do need to do is to chase boaters/ vehicles who damage locks and bridges to claim back on insurance for repairs. This seems not to happen even with video footage. More use of CCTV could help.
 

Some things CRT have to do is nonsensical. Planning permission to repair the Tardebigge top lock, likewise for many lock gate replacements, Braunston for example, each time. What a waste of time resource and effort for councils and CRT.
 

We’ve also been over H&S many times.  The consensus seems that the cost of H&S is worth it. I’m far from convinced but remain in the minority. Audlem locks off their hinges  for example could and used to be fixed with an Tirfor winch and experience. That repair cost far more and took much longer as various lifting equipment and contractors came in as it’s all safer, apparently. It may possibly be but the danger in making this lifting equipment, mining resources, use of fossil fuels to get there plus contract negs all have hidden costs too. 

 

None of which address the huge gap between CRT's income and be amount needed to address the backlog plus the cost of ongoing maintenance.

 

As Arthur Marshall says, CRT could choose to run down the maintenance on the HNC and let it slowly return to the state it was in before restoration. The same goes for the K&A.

 

H&S is part of modern life. Any company or willfully choosing to ignore it will get the full force of the HSE coming down on them is someone got killed or seriously injured as a result and would find that their public liability insurance premiums increase prohibitively, which is why most companies undertake risk assessments and try to undertake the work in the safest practicable way.

[Arthur Marshall]

27 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

In any case, closing canals that many  volunteers laboured for years on is just the wrong way of addressing problems.

That's just silly. It was a good thing that the volunteers restored them, a shame that they then abandoned them. Either way, how we got to where we are isn't the point. As I've said, canals don't need to be closed, just not maintained. The HNC is virtually unnavigable already by most boaters - what percentage of boat owners would ever miss it? Plenty of others are, I'm afraid, the same. 

Of course the solution is more resources. Trouble is, there aren't any. And it's no good moaning about planning permission. About the only clout the system has is as part of the heritage industry. Scrap that and you can wave goodbye to about the only good argument there is for keeping it open. As a playground for rich people on hundred grand boats, or as a dosshouse for those with nowhere else to go, it's not got much of a future.

[Orwellian]

49 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

the HNC can’t be closed due to conditions involved with the millennium funding.

As far as I know no one has ever produced any evidence to prove this so it's just speculation.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

4 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

Part of the problem with your question (ie what is the funding gap?) is that the level of works is not an entirely objective measure. Also, CaRT have made some good progress in developing less expensive methods and also viable short term repairs (eg balance beams). It also depends on what is considered an acceptable level of maintenance taking into account availability (ie how many days a year out of service), usability (eg how easy should paddles be to operate), standards (eg frequency of water and elsan points - with availability factored in - eg how many days per year is there more than the standard max distance to next point exceeded through non availability) Most of such measures are statistical and less easily understood by many users.

 

The one measure that I would not advocate is that encapsulated in "The canals are not in the same good state that they were back in xxxx". 

CRT inherited a fairly sophisticated model for estimating the spend needed to keep the waterways in 'just acceptable' condition from British Waterways. The 'steady state' model used a bottom up approach with current data to calculate spend needed. The funding gap was generally accepted as the difference between 'steady state' spend and actual spend.

 

I do take the point that a definition of 'just acceptable' might change over time and certainly, working practices and costs do change. However, the 'steady state' model was flexible enough to adapt changes. 

 

[Ian Mac]

20 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Google's AI, says "Around 450,000 people enjoy canal boating holidays on Britain's inland waterways every year. 

Google AI definitely reads the website for information, so it is no surprise that the AI's think this is a number, worthy or reporting.
GIGO

[Orwellian]

How does any AI or indeed any human know they enjoyed it?

[Ian Mac]

26 minutes ago, Orwellian said:

As far as I know no one has ever produced any evidence to prove this so it's just speculation.

The people with the information will be the HCS. There was certainly a twenty-year funding agreement which the HCS managed on behalf of the adjoining local authorities, who as part of the deal , to reopen placed the money in a fund upfront manage by the HCS, on their behalf. That agreement was for 20 years which is why the HCS closed its office a good while ago. 
I am not sure how the LA's are now funding their obligation to manage a remainder waterway, but fund it they must. The question is by how much.

[Arthur Marshall]

6 minutes ago, Orwellian said:

How does any AI or indeed any human know they enjoyed it?

The last three or four years, leisure boating has been 50% enjoyable and 50% interesting.

[Orwellian]

1 minute ago, Arthur Marshall said:

The last three or four years, leisure boating has been 50% enjoyable and 50% interesting.

So that's you. What about the other 449,999?

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

H&S is part of modern life. Any company or willfully choosing to ignore it will get the full force of the HSE coming down on them is someone got killed or seriously injured as a result and would find that their public liability insurance premiums increase prohibitively,

And may also find directors imprisoned...

[Arthur Marshall]

1 minute ago, Orwellian said:

So that's you. What about the other 449,999?

Dunno, I haven't got Artificial Intelligence, only the real stuff, and probably not as much of that as I used to have.

Edited Tuesday at 16:28 by Arthur Marshall

[Orwellian]

12 minutes ago, Ian Mac said:

The people with the information will be the HCS. There was certainly a twenty-year funding agreement which the HCS managed on behalf of the adjoining local authorities, who as part of the deal , to reopen placed the money in a fund upfront manage by the HCS, on their behalf. That agreement was for 20 years which is why the HCS closed its office a good while ago. 
I am not sure how the LA's are now funding their obligation to manage a remainder waterway, but fund it they must. The question is by how much.

Evidence please.

[Ian Mac]

Having recently been volunteer in the west side of the HVNC it is my view is that it is not in bad shape. Several things have not helped recently. The dry weather for one, a boat force a passage through a very low pound and wreaking a box trunk causing what water there was, to just run away. IT has always been a shallow canal that is how it was built, modern expectations do not match what is actually there. You cannot just moor anywhere you need a gang plank in a lot of places, including lock landings! The number of times we have followed a boat through the HVNC and discovered empty pounds caused by paddle not being shut properly is amazing. On a heavy used canal this would be discovered within hours on the HVNC it can be days. I know we all cock it up on occasions, but it seems to be every other boat now making a mess of the cut.

In my experience the biggest problem now with canals is that vast majority of boaters no long know or care about the canal, it is purely a transport mechanism, which they don't understand, and is someone else's problem, just like their car on a road!  They cannot work locks properly, they do not check that they have shut paddles and gates, they wreak gates by forcing them open. They complain the water is running away, but do not rake up the leaks. 
Those of us who have been around know how to do these things, and care enough to do them, we are now a very small minority. 
The trust needs a huge education push, especially as it is now a charity, and it needs boaters to help, rather than just cry we pay for our licence and we demand the cut works. 

12 minutes ago, Orwellian said:

Evidence please.

Read the back copies of Pennine Link!

 

[Ian Mac]

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

I seem to recall reading that the main reason that the Llangollen canal was kept navigable,  was that the guy in charge pointed out that, due to its many remote parts, access by boat was the only practical option for any repairs that might become necessary for it to continue to supply water to the Midlands. 

Nearly right - Mr Marsh, Engineer North, for the BTC, based in offices on Lime St, Liverpool, came up with the idea of selling water to Chester Water board, from water extracted from the River Dee. It did indeed mean that the canal had to be navigable by maintenance boats however he made sure that only small boats could get up there by not rebuilding the narrow lock at Hurlston, thus creating the 6ft 10" gauge. Only recently fixed and there are still problems with at least two other locks on the Welsh cut for gauge.

[Orwellian]

9 minutes ago, Ian Mac said:

Having recently been volunteer in the west side of the HVNC it is my view is that it is not in bad shape. Several things have not helped recently. The dry weather for one, a boat force a passage through a very low pound and wreaking a box trunk causing what water there was, to just run away. IT has always been a shallow canal that is how it was built, modern expectations do not match what is actually there. You cannot just moor anywhere you need a gang plank in a lot of places, including lock landings! The number of times we have followed a boat through the HVNC and discovered empty pounds caused by paddle not being shut properly is amazing. On a heavy used canal this would be discovered within hours on the HVNC it can be days. I know we all cock it up on occasions, but it seems to be every other boat now making a mess of the cut.

In my experience the biggest problem now with canals is that vast majority of boaters no long know or care about the canal, it is purely a transport mechanism, which they don't understand, and is someone else's problem, just like their car on a road!  They cannot work locks properly, they do not check that they have shut paddles and gates, they wreak gates by forcing them open. They complain the water is running away, but do not rake up the leaks. 
Those of us who have been around know how to do these things, and care enough to do them, we are now a very small minority. 
The trust needs a huge education push, especially as it is now a charity, and it needs boaters to help, rather than just cry we pay for our licence and we demand the cut works. 

Read the back copies of Pennine Link!

 

Cop out! You don't know do you?

[Ex Brummie]

8 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

All they are interested in is getting the towpaths sorted and a handy fence to hang their bag of dog excrement on. Navigation is not their interest. I walked by the Chichester canal every day when I was a kid, and never knew they actually could still have boats on, nor had any idea that boating was a possibility for ordinary people until I got bullied onto a friend's boat in my 30s.

 

I grew up around the Grand Union in Small Heath, Birmingham, and can never recall seeing a boat there. Likewise, a 6d train ride took us t o Lapworth for fishing and the only boats I recall were abandoned hulks in the big pound by the junction. A haven for perch and chub.

My interest was kindled when I lived for a while in Nechells, and the quickest route into the city for an evening was up Ashted and Farmer's Bridge. This was in the 70's, and saw a few boats then, and also found Gas Street. First trip was on the camping boat Anson with Graham Wigley. I saw him many years later on the Stourbridge 16 and tod him he had cost me a lot of money! He looked quite perturbed until I explained it was for buying boats.

In those earlier days of my boating, especially around the BCN, we took many of the problems of today in our stride. Boating has changed so much today and so have peoples' expectations. Nowadays a boat must have all the comforts of home with the attendant equipment to service it and this excludes many people from enjoying it, whether owning or hiring.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

And may also find directors imprisoned...

The position of Director of Health & Safety in CRT disappeared recently but I don't see anyone behind bars ...

 

Anyone know what happen to Anne Gardner-Aston?

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Ian Mac said:

Only recently fixed and there are still problems with at least two other locks on the Welsh cut for gauge.

Having taken a Big Woolwich, built to a beam of 7ft 1/2", up to beyond Trevor last year, I can confirm there are no unreasonably narrow locks on the Llangollen. Depth, on the other hand, is an issue and the reason we only got to just beyond the aqueduct before we could go no further.

The boat has been to Llangollen in the past, long before the latest rebuilding at Hurleston

[Alan de Enfield]

12 hours ago, BoatingLifeUpNorth2 said:

Maybe there’s lots of these cameras in Cherry picked locations, getting these high numbers?

 

 

No. they have engaged a marketing company who call/meet with 1000 people and ask them questions (I have the questionnair somewhere - I'll try and find it)

 

Typical questions include such as 

Have you used a pub or restaurant near the canal in the last to weeks, if so how many times ?

Have you walked along the tow path of any canal or river in the last 2 weeks, if so how many times ?

 

Etc, etc

 

This gives some interesting results -

Someone who walks along the canal to work, pops out at lunchtime to the pub, walks back to work, walks home from work it 'using' the canal 4 times per day (56 times per fortnight)

 

A mother walks along the tow path taking the kids to school (1 usage), back on the canal to the canal side Supermarket (1 usage), walks back home along the tow path (1 usage) goes along the towpath to pick the kids up from school (1 usage) and walks back along the tow path to 'feed the ducks' on the way home (1 usage) total 5 visits in one day.

 

The total number of visist/usage from the 1000 people for the 2 week period is added together.

 

 

The total population of GB is around 69 million (AI figure)

1000 people is 0.00204081633% of the population.

 

The figure obtained by marketing is extrapolated by taking the number as 0.00204081633% of the actual total of canal and towpath users in 2 weeks and multiplied to give the annual visits to the canals and towpaths.

 

C&RT went out to tender for a new telemarketig company a couple or three years ago - but, the above is certainly the system previously used, and if the current figures are still aligning with the previous figures, one assumes the process is very similar.

 

Edit to add - found it .......................

 

 

Visitor Numbers Questionnaire

 

Q1 Firstly, I am going to read out some activities that you may have taken part in recently. For each one, can you tell me whether you personally have taken part in this activity in Britain within the past two weeks? So firstly, have you……[rotate activity list]…. on a stretch of inland water which is used by boats, for example a canal, river or lake.
1. Been on a boat with an engine
2. Been on a boat without an engine? Please
3. include activities such as canoeing, rowing boats and sailing boats
4. Been fishing
5. Been cycling
6. Walked a dog
7. Visited a specific attraction, heritage attraction or museum
8. Taken a walk or a ramble for leisure
9. Taken a run or jog for leisure
10. Used or walked along only in order to get somewhere else? For example, to get to work or to go shopping
11. Bought food or drink in a pub
12. Just sat or stood by the water as a break in the day to relax (always penultimate activity)
13. Used or visited for some other purpose? (SPECIFY)

Q2. [For each activity at Q1] On how many days in the past two weeks have you personally……[read out activity]….on a stretch of inland water used by boats, for example, a river, canal or lake in Britain?
WRITE IN NUMBER OF DAYS BETWEEN 1 AND 14.

Q3. [For each activity at Q1] And thinking about the last day you have……[read out activity]….which river, canal or lake did you do this on?
RECORD ALL OF THE FOLLOWING:
a) Name of Waterway (if known):
b) Nearest Town / Village:
c) Name of County:

Edited Tuesday at 19:32 by Alan de Enfield

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

No. they have engaged a marketing company who call/meet with 1000 people and ask them questions (I have the questionnair somewhere - I'll try and find it)

 

Typical questions include such as 

Have you used a pub or restaurant near the canal in the last to weeks, if so how many times ?

Have you walked along the tow path of any canal or river in the last 2 weeks, if so how many times ?

 

Etc, etc

 

This gives some interesting results -

Someone who walks along the canal to work, pops out at lunchtime to the pub, walks back to work, walks home from work it 'using' the canal 4 times per day (56 times per fortnight)

 

A mother walks along the tow path taking the kids to school (1 usage), back on the canal to the canal side Supermarket (1 usage), walks back home along the tow path (1 usage) goes along the towpath to pick the kids up from school (1 usage) and walks back along the tow path to 'feed the ducks' on the way home (1 usage) total 5 visits in one day.

 

The total number of visist/usage from the 1000 people for the 2 week period is added together.

 

 

The total population of GB is around 69 million (AI figure)

1000 people is 0.00204081633% of the population.

 

The figure obtained by marketing is extrapolated by taking the number as 0.00204081633% of the actual total of canal and towpath users in 2 weeks and multiplied to give the annual visits to the canals and towpaths.

 

C&RT went out to tender for a new telemarketig company a couple or three years ago - but, the above is certainly the system previously used, and if the current figures are still aligning with the previous figures, one assumes the process is very similar.

 

Edit to add - found it .......................

 

 

Visitor Numbers Questionnaire

 

Q1 Firstly, I am going to read out some activities that you may have taken part in recently. For each one, can you tell me whether you personally have taken part in this activity in Britain within the past two weeks? So firstly, have you……[rotate activity list]…. on a stretch of inland water which is used by boats, for example a canal, river or lake.
1. Been on a boat with an engine
2. Been on a boat without an engine? Please
3. include activities such as canoeing, rowing boats and sailing boats
4. Been fishing
5. Been cycling
6. Walked a dog
7. Visited a specific attraction, heritage attraction or museum
8. Taken a walk or a ramble for leisure
9. Taken a run or jog for leisure
10. Used or walked along only in order to get somewhere else? For example, to get to work or to go shopping
11. Bought food or drink in a pub
12. Just sat or stood by the water as a break in the day to relax (always penultimate activity)
13. Used or visited for some other purpose? (SPECIFY)

Q2. [For each activity at Q1] On how many days in the past two weeks have you personally……[read out activity]….on a stretch of inland water used by boats, for example, a river, canal or lake in Britain?
WRITE IN NUMBER OF DAYS BETWEEN 1 AND 14.

Q3. [For each activity at Q1] And thinking about the last day you have……[read out activity]….which river, canal or lake did you do this on?
RECORD ALL OF THE FOLLOWING:
a) Name of Waterway (if known):
b) Nearest Town / Village:
c) Name of County:

All that really doesn't matter. Nobody believes these figures, or wants to challenge them. They're irrelevant. No business ever reports genuine numbers, they just fiddle them to support their argument for what they want, bit like doing your tax returns. As long as they are vaguely believable, and they serve everybody's purposes, they'll be accepted. You pay accountants or consultants to massage them into credibility.

There's usually another book somewhere with more genuine figures that the managers can use for planning, but it'll be locked away very securely and it certainly will never appear in a public announcement.

[agg221]

9 hours ago, MtB said:

 

You know he was a member? And/or that they advised him to put his waste on the towpath?

Although Tonka hasn’t replied yet, I can confirm that George Ward was supported by NBTA. His case worker at the time is a member on here who popped up in April/May.

 

Alec