Moorings question - please help update my knowledge...

[Cheese]

Welcome to the forum. Congratulations on going about things the right way, by doing some research and asking questions first!

[BoatingLifeUpNorth2]

10 hours ago, WulfNut said:

As far as getting a marina goes. A lot of it depends on area.  I'm guessing from talking to people around me that getting a marina in the north should be easier.  The midlands is slowly becoming busier with boats moving from the north and choosing to travel to their boat rather than keep it north without water.  The south has been very difficult for years.  

 

In regards to living on the marina,  its best if you spend a lot of time off your mooring.   The more you disappear the easier it is.  

 

Moorings are easier to find the smaller your boat is,  but marinas sometimes have a minimum charge.  

I would say getting a mooring in a Marina up North is the same as getting in a Marina in most parts of the country. You have to wait just as long and residential are few and far between. The Marinas up North tend to be a lot smaller than the Midlands/South. There are few if any like Mercia with hundreds of boats, Cafe, garden centre. So there’s often a waiting list and they can pick and choose. Maybe boats are moving South as the Midlands/Southern Marinas are bigger with more facilities, more things to do and more routes to go once you go out.

 It all obviously depends where you need to be and how you use your boat, 

[Crewcut]

Hi, by the sounds of it you'd be fine actually living on a boat having done it before and from the questions you're asking but if you're in your 50s what's the plan for when you retire? I ask because if you're going to reach retirement age or the age at which you think you'd like to, unless you own a property you're going to have to carry on living on your boat (or in a van or whatever) or else privately rent somewhere to live. People of retirement age having to privately rent and not being able to afford it is becoming an increasing problem - I believe the number of retirement age people privately renting is forecast to be over a million by 2030. In the expensive south east where I used to live I know people in their 40s & 50s who have moved back in with their parents, are living in vans (which as you say is becoming increasingly difficult in the UK) or living in houseshares like they did when they were students because they have no choice so avoiding ending up in such a position should really (unfortunately) be a priority.

 

For what it's worth I sold my boat after living afloat for 16 years and bought a flat in the Scottish Borders because I wanted to "retire" at 60. The flat is significantly cheaper to run than the boat but then I was paying £500/month for a residential mooring of sorts in a coastal marina very close to where I worked. Pre-Brexit and before my Mum went into a nursing home I had plans to sail away to the Mediterranean and live aboard there but that's another story.

 

Best of luck with your plans!

[Bod]

2 hours ago, Tentface said:

This is why I'm picking the brains of boaters, as opposed to just reading websites or going by memory. It's really tough on vanlife friends, and some have moved to Portugal to escape harassment and restrictions on overnight stays. I'm testing the waters about how feasible it would be to actually have a floating home next year, if my partner rents a room in a houseshare nearby.

I am doing months of research and viewing as many boats as possible to see what's out there and where my sweet spot is. Spent an hour yesterday reading about overplating. Keen not to make an expensive mistake, as I am in my 50s.

"Rents a room in a houseshare nearby" does this mean you would be looking to boat in one small area, close to your partner?

Before going any further you need to go to the C&RT website to read and fully understand the requirements for "Continuous Cruising" or as it is properly named "Boats without a Home mooring"  This is what you will be signing up to, if you do not have a recognised mooring arrangement either with C&RT or a mooring provider.

There are many different interpretations of the CCing idea, only the C&RT information can be taken as correct.

 

Bod. 

[Tentface]

51 minutes ago, Crewcut said:

Hi, by the sounds of it you'd be fine actually living on a boat having done it before and from the questions you're asking but if you're in your 50s what's the plan for when you retire?

 

Without wanting to go off topic too much... We pay over £1K per month plus CT for a mortgage on a 3 bed Victorian house in a cheap town in Merseyside and feel wage trapped. Houses fill up with stuff! I used to move house with a rucksac on a train 20 years ago, and up until a few years ago, could fit everything I own in a Fiat Panda. When I lived in a 12 foot caravan during the lockdown, I was so much happier, even in winter when I had to walk across icy grass to the nearest toilet. My partner wants to quit his job and earn less, but we can't afford to with this mortgage. He can afford to if he moves into a housing co-op or lodges with a friend. Owning property hasn't given us any financial stability - quite the opposite. We are also trapped indoors every year from mid October to early January, because we never know when fireworks are going to go off in the street. We hate living on a street!

27 minutes ago, Bod said:

"Rents a room in a houseshare nearby" does this mean you would be looking to boat in one small area, close to your partner?

No. Except winter, perhaps? I understand that boats don't move in winter for practical reasons, and for closures. Largely depends on what job I do next. Currently work in retail part time over multiple sites and am a writer part time.

27 minutes ago, Bod said:

Before going any further you need to go to the C&RT website to read and fully understand the requirements for "Continuous Cruising" or as it is properly named "Boats without a Home mooring"  This is what you will be signing up to, if you do not have a recognised mooring arrangement either with C&RT or a mooring provider.

There are many different interpretations of the CCing idea, only the C&RT information can be taken as correct.

Looking into all options at the moment. Preference would be to buy a boat, CC for a while, while looking for a home mooring, then pounce. But this may not be the most sensible option, and that's why I'm researching it.

[IanD]

28 minutes ago, Bod said:

"Rents a room in a houseshare nearby" does this mean you would be looking to boat in one small area, close to your partner?

Before going any further you need to go to the C&RT website to read and fully understand the requirements for "Continuous Cruising" or as it is properly named "Boats without a Home mooring"  This is what you will be signing up to, if you do not have a recognised mooring arrangement either with C&RT or a mooring provider.

There are many different interpretations of the CCing idea, only the C&RT information can be taken as correct.

 

Bod. 

CRT document: https://share.google/tI3GkUXztHf5xQUcX

CRT advice: https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/boating/license-your-boat/continuous-cruising

 

https://www.canaljunction.com/boat/liveaboard1.htm

 

"The Canal and River Trust explains to boaters who don’t have a home mooring ‘.. you don’t have a home mooring for your boat, so you’re registered as a ‘continuous cruiser’. This means that throughout the period of your licence you must ‘bona fide’ navigate and not stay in the same place for more than 14 days. The definition of navigating implies a journey of some length, so you can’t shuffle to and fro in a small area, just because that’s where your work or other commitments are.‘This definition of continuous cruising meaning ‘real movement’ has been upheld in the courts." 

 

[LadyG]

10 hours ago, Tentface said:

This is why I'm picking the brains of boaters, as opposed to just reading websites or going by memory. It's really tough on vanlife friends, and some have moved to Portugal to escape harassment and restrictions on overnight stays. I'm testing the waters about how feasible it would be to actually have a floating home next year, if my partner rents a room in a houseshare nearby.

I am doing months of research and viewing as many boats as possible to see what's out there and where my sweet spot is. Spent an hour yesterday reading about overplating. Keen not to make an expensive mistake, as I am in my 50s.

Be aware that you are buying a deprecating asset, aka a liability, so you will be spending on maintenance if you want to keep things up to scratch. 

 A  two pack epoxy coating on a properly prepared surface could last six to ten years.  The standard bitumen type blacking is more common and needs the boat to be hauled out, then coated every two/three years.

I would not buy a boat that might need overplating, nor would I buy a boat that has been overplated. 

I budget £1600pa on a licence and £1000 a year on maintenance. There are other essential costs, insurance, diesel. I pay ~£1500 heating and laundry. You can of course pay less, but its not as cheap as it may appear initially.

PS you need to move in winter and in summer if you have no home mooring, essentially there is no difference.

There will be winter stoppages, but these are published in advance and you are expected to work around them, not get stuck in them!

 

Edited July 31 by LadyG

[Tentface]

7 minutes ago, IanD said:

CRT document: https://share.google/tI3GkUXztHf5xQUcX

CRT advice: https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/boating/license-your-boat/continuous-cruising

 

https://www.canaljunction.com/boat/liveaboard1.htm

 

"The Canal and River Trust explains to boaters who don’t have a home mooring ‘.. you don’t have a home mooring for your boat, so you’re registered as a ‘continuous cruiser’. This means that throughout the period of your licence you must ‘bona fide’ navigate and not stay in the same place for more than 14 days. The definition of navigating implies a journey of some length, so you can’t shuffle to and fro in a small area, just because that’s where your work or other commitments are.‘This definition of continuous cruising meaning ‘real movement’ has been upheld in the courts." 

 

What if stretches of canal get closed due to ice or draught? How is having to move enforced if it becomes unsafe?

[Crewcut]

6 minutes ago, Tentface said:

 

Without wanting to go off topic too much... We pay over £1K per month plus CT for a mortgage on a 3 bed Victorian house in a cheap town in Merseyside and feel wage trapped. Houses fill up with stuff! I used to move house with a rucksac on a train 20 years ago, and up until a few years ago, could fit everything I own in a Fiat Panda. When I lived in a 12 foot caravan during the lockdown, I was so much happier, even in winter when I had to walk across icy grass to the nearest toilet. My partner wants to quit his job and earn less, but we can't afford to with this mortgage. He can afford to if he moves into a housing co-op or lodges with a friend. Owning property hasn't given us any financial stability - quite the opposite. We are also trapped indoors every year from mid October to early January, because we never know when fireworks are going to go off in the street. We hate living on a street!

 

Yeah I hear you, I really liked living on the boat & would have been much happier if it wasn't in a big expensive marina but even so I'd never have been able to save enough money to buy a flat and "retire" at 60 if I hadn't lived aboard all those years. I've just finished converting a van into a camper so that'll be my escape now, I envisage spending a few months somewhere warmer in the depths of winter and have the flat as an insurance policy against ever having to pay private rent for somewhere to live. You have to do what's right for you at the time don't you...

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, Tentface said:

What if stretches of canal get closed due to ice or draught? How is having to move enforced if it becomes unsafe?

Not at all, you could get iced in, but unlikely. Stoppages are notified by email  (sign up for these), so you need to keep on top of these things. The weather will also affect travel, so it's best not to wait  the fourteen days, but move when things are in your favour. If you have good reason you will be granted an extension, maybe a week. If you need professional maintenance in a marina, that counts as a home mooring, in my opinion, but not in the opinion of the CRT, I have discovered, lol!

Edited July 31 by LadyG

[Tentface]

15 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Be aware that you are buying a deprecating asset, aka a liability, so you will be spending on maintenance if you want to keep things up to scratch. 

 

I would not buy a boat that might need overplating, nor would I buy a boat that has been overplated. 

That's one of the things I'm looking into. I recall my old pal telling me he bought his 1990 45 foot boat for £10K originally. He sold it a couple of years back for £30K. I can't see how a 1990 camper van would go up in value three times, no matter how well it was conserved.

Re. overplating... Yeah, that's the conclusion I'm coming to.

[LadyG]

7 minutes ago, Tentface said:

That's one of the things I'm looking into. I recall my old pal telling me he bought his 1990 45 foot boat for £10K originally. He sold it a couple of years back for £30K. I can't see how a 1990 camper van would go up in value three times, no matter how well it was conserved.

Re. overplating... Yeah, that's the conclusion I'm coming to.

There is a boat abandoned close to me, presumably unsaleable. Looking at it, the owner probably paid eg £10K, but he's lost his money, and walked away, leaving the CRT to pick up the bill. It won't have been a great experience.

Edited July 31 by LadyG

[Tentface]

My budget is more like £40K, (based on recent estate agent house valuations) and I'll be getting a survey done when I'm ready to buy. I'm reading about boats with secret damage, like twisted props from being grounded. I'm really wary.

Edited July 31 by Tentface

[IanD]

49 minutes ago, Tentface said:

What if stretches of canal get closed due to ice or draught? How is having to move enforced if it becomes unsafe?

If there are water shortages in an area causing lock closures or low water levels so boats can't move, the rules in that area are suspended.

 

Getting iced in is very rare, certainly for long enough for this to be a problem with the CC rules -- but if it happens I expect the rules would be suspended.

 

The problem is not in these exceptional cases, the problem is that wanting to stay in a small area for personal reasons like job/school is specifically stated by CRT as not being allowed with a "license without home mooring", or CC (Continuous Cruising) as it is often called.

 

There are boaters who bend or break these rules because they don't want to follow them, but sooner or later they're likely to come to the attention of CRT and have their license shortened or withdrawn.

Edited July 31 by IanD

[LadyG]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

There are boaters who bend or break these rules because they don't want to follow them, but sooner or later they're likely to come to the attention of CRT and have their license shortened or withdrawn.

Absolutely,  gaming the system is going to be a restrictive experience for most people. The percieved freedom of the lifestyle is restricted  by the rules of the CRT, currently under review, these changes will have been triggered by the increase in liveaboards, resulting in overcrowding eg in London.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Tentface said:

What if stretches of canal get closed due to ice or draught? How is having to move enforced if it becomes unsafe?

 

As has been said - this is very unlikely as the icing we have had for many years has rarely lasted more than a couple of  days - maybe 1 week.

 

There is currently a licence review being undertaken, and looking at ways C&RT can manage the waterways better and actually enforce breaches of licence conditions.

 

The conclusions are not yet known but NBTA (a militant boaters organisation representing boaters with no home mooring - ie CCers) claims that the following are proposed :

 

Those Licence Review recommendations – the good and the bad.
1. The bad (in no particular order):
·         End to the Rivers Only licence
·         CRT should have the ability to fine people for breach of T&Cs
·         Removal of boat at your cost (£10 000) if you don’t pay a fine within 21 days
·         CRT should be able to use “reasonable force” during enforcement
·         End of bona fide navigation
·         Ad hoc differential pricing by area
·         Trackers on boats
·         Publicly accessible register of boat owners, funded by boat owners.
·         Increased powers to refuse a licence
·         BSS certificates older than 3 months invalid when a boat is sold.

 

I'm sure that much of this is just scaremongering, but there will be some additional enforcement and tightening of the rules, methods as yet unknown.

Edited July 31 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

End of bona fide navigation

 

I'd suggest this would be unreasonable, but only if you used your boat bona fide for navigation throughout the period of the licence'.

 

The current arrangement grew out of the concession to moor occasionally for up to two weeks as part of the bona fide navigation. CMers seized on this and claimed the right to moor serially for two weeks at a time with these repeated two week mooring stops separated by ever shorter cruises, until the cruises became ridiculously short i.e. only a mile or two between consecutive 14 day stops.

 

Restoring or enforcing the concept of bona fide navigation would fix the problem. I'd suggest maybe two or three 14-day stops per year would be more reasonable than 24 x 14 day stops per year currently accepted by CRT. Plus the odd one or two as reasonable under the circumstances, perhaps. Otherwise moving the boat every day would be necessary for CCing. No problem for those genuinely CCing. 

[IanD]

28 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I'd suggest this would be unreasonable, but only if you used your boat bona fide for navigation throughout the period of the licence'.

 

The current arrangement grew out of the concession to moor occasionally for up to two weeks as part of the bona fide navigation. CMers seized on this and claimed the right to moor serially for two weeks at a time with these repeated two week mooring stops separated by ever shorter cruises, until the cruises became ridiculously short i.e. only a mile or two between consecutive 14 day stops.

 

Restoring or enforcing the concept of bona fide navigation would fix the problem. I'd suggest maybe two or three 14-day stops per year would be more reasonable than 24 x 14 day stops per year currently accepted by CRT. Plus the odd one or two as reasonable under the circumstances, perhaps. Otherwise moving the boat every day would be necessary for CCing. No problem for those genuinely CCing. 

I think what the NBTA are worried about is the end of the wooly and much-abused "bona-fide navigation" clause and its replacement with something a lot more hard-edged and certain where it's much harder for CMers to bend the rules -- for example, a minimum reasonable distance to be moved each month (to allow for a 14-day stop) like 20 miles (only one day's cruise!) or more. Maybe 50 miles per month to stop people doing the "London shuffle"... 😉 

The problem is that all the CMers wouldn't be able to find/afford home moorings (even if they wanted to) and also wouldn't be able to (or at least, claim they couldn't...) meet the movement requirements, so what to do with them? Introduce another licence class, maybe with a bigger surcharge than for CCing? Fining them for non-movement and then seizing their boats if/when they don't pay isn't going to work, what are CRT going to do faced with several thousand boats they've lifted out of the water?

 

Like it or not there's no winding the clock back to the "good old days" when there were maybe a few hundred CCers *genuinely* cruising round the system -- today there are thousands and thousands of CMers on the canals who have taken advantage of low costs and lax (or non-existent) rule enforcement to find a cheap way to live where they want to (moving very little), and they're not going to magically disappear. But CRT need to find a way to bring them under control, and probably make more money out of them.

 

However the NBTA approach of just giving in and say "you never need to move again, or pay for this" is equally untenable -- at least, to everyone who isn't a CMer... 😞 

Edited July 31 by IanD

[Lady M]

And it can cause more problems for CRT when they do move due to wear and tear on the system, loss of water due to poor paddle/gate management, etc.

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, Lady M said:

And it can cause more problems for CRT when they do move due to wear and tear on the system, loss of water due to poor paddle/gate management, etc.

 

So you agree that the CC licence should have a premium attached to it to cover all this 'extra wear and tear'

The question is, "how much" ?

The additional amount at the moment has been suggested as nowhere near enough.

[Lady M]

I didn't say that

[IanD]

39 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

So you agree that the CC licence should have a premium attached to it to cover all this 'extra wear and tear'

The question is, "how much" ?

The additional amount at the moment has been suggested as nowhere near enough.

Given that it seems that only a few CCers actually move round the system and make much use of locks etc -- the majority of CMers move hardly at all -- then this isn't really a valid reason for the "CC surcharge", at least not when most CCers are CMers like seems to be the case today since the number of CC licenses vastly increased in the last few years.

 

A valid reason for a "no home mooring" surcharge (to be accurate) is to make CCers/CMers pay more via the license fee to balance out the amount that HMers pay to CRT via the 9% precept or EOG/farm fees or CRT mooring fees, so that all types of boater make similar contributions to the cost of keeping the canals open and maintaining them.

 

Some quick calculations suggest that the existing "25% CC surcharge" is too small for this purpose...

Edited July 31 by IanD

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

So you agree that the CC licence should have a premium attached to it to cover all this 'extra wear and tear'

The question is, "how much" ?

The additional amount at the moment has been suggested as nowhere near enough.

I'd just dump the whole CC concept and have a separate class for a "liveaboard licence", as it's nonsensical to pretend anyone can continually cruise without living on board. Even the "legal" dumpers are living on the thing when they get round to shifting it every occasional weekend. Same rules as current apply re movement or permanent mooring, with a surcharge equivalent to the average EOG fee for those without a home mooring, plus a geographical surcharge for those spotted in specific regions -  similar to the London congestion charge - for longer than a recreational limit.

Sorted.

Haven't we been round this dance three hundred times already?

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I'd just dump the whole CC concept and have a separate class for a "liveaboard licence", as it's nonsensical to pretend anyone can continually cruise without living on board. Even the "legal" dumpers are living on the thing when they get round to shifting it every occasional weekend. Same rules as current apply re movement or permanent mooring, with a surcharge equivalent to the average EOG fee for those without a home mooring, plus a geographical surcharge for those spotted in specific regions -  similar to the London congestion charge - for longer than a recreational limit.

Sorted.

Haven't we been round this dance three hundred times already?

Yes of course -- and I suspect almost everyone except the NBTA and their supporters agrees.

 

But not of course anyone else who would have to pay it, because what most boaters seem to think is that either somebody else should pay more not them, or that everyone should pay the same increase even though they're the ones getting the benefit... 😉 

Edited July 31 by IanD

[Arthur Marshall]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

Yes of course -- and I suspect almost everyone except the NBTA and their supporters agrees.

 

And or course anyone else who would have to pay it, because what most boaters seem to think is that either somebody else should pay more not them, or that everyone should pay the same increase even though they're the ones getting the benefit... 😉 

It's still tough on the genuine CCers , who aren't as rare as all that and some if whome have been pottering about for years. But that's the curse of those who try to game the system and bollocks it up for everyone else.