My Floating Home

[blackrose]

I watched an episode on More4 last night showing a couple who spent £230K on a bright yellow all electric narrowboat, built at Swan Boat Builders in Liverpool.

 

As usual, the presenter and the couple having the boat built were only concerned with superficial things like the colour, a big heart shaped window at the bow and heart shapes cut into the steelwork, plus of course the high-spec interior finish. It's a lot of money so you get what you want. They'd actually chosen electric drive because they thought their dog was disturbed by the diesel engine when they'd previously hired a narrow boat. I guess the auxiliary diesel generator on their new boat was much quieter and vibrated less than a modern diesel engine. It's amazing what people do for their dogs in this country. If it was me I'd just let the dog get used to the noise.

 

I don't know how old the episode was but what surprised me most was the huge lead-carbon battery bank. Perhaps I was watching an old repeat, but having spent so much money I wondered why it wasn't lithium?

Edited July 30 by blackrose

[Rob-M]

24 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

I don't know how old the episode was but what surprised me most was the huge lead-carbon battery bank. Perhaps I was watching an old repeat, but having spent so much money I wondered why it wasn't lithium?

I was also surprised by the battery choice as the boat was built last year.

[MtB]

42 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I don't know how old the episode was but what surprised me most was the huge lead-carbon battery bank.

 

Is lead carbon another term for lead acid batteries? What are otherwise called traction batteries?

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

22 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Is lead carbon another term for lead acid batteries? What are otherwise called traction batteries?

 

 

 

Yes, remember Elecsols!

 

It seems carbon fibre is mixed into the lead oxide that is then pushed onto the plate grids. This is supposed to help reduce the effect of surface charge on the charge rate because the fibres conduct the electrons deep into the plate, and also helps provide higher discharge currents.

 

The makers claim that it reduces sulphation, but apart from allegedly getting more charge deeper into the plates sooner I can so no reason why it would or can - very happy for a battery chemist to tell me that I am wrong.

 

If the higher discharge current theory holds up in practice then I can see that lead carbon batteries, as opposed to lead antinomy or lead calcium, might be a better choice for propulsion, but I fear someone may have been taken in by the marketeers. As long as the BMS can cope with traction discharges then I don't see why LFP batteries would not have been an even better choice, because I am not sure that there is that much difference in price between LFP and quality lead carbon batteries. Ian has found the BMS's are perfectly happy with traction loads.

 

The other interpretation could be that boat builder/fitters understand lead acid battery systems and not LFPs, so did not want to pay outside advisors/contractors for the installation.

[Lady M]

The purchasers were keen to stick to their budget.  

[Mike Griffin]

Yes was an interesting programe,  Personally I do not trust a lithium Batteries and a battery bank that size treat with the utmost caution. Once on fire it would burn for weeks.

[BoatingLifeUpNorth2]

1 hour ago, Rob-M said:

I was also surprised by the battery choice as the boat was built last year.

Maybe their budget never stretched to the extra cost of a full Lithium install, they set their budget for £230K and the builder gave them/his best boat for the price. That’s what sensible new buyers do. Why spend an extra £100K on an electric/lithium/solar boat when you can have a good boat that gets you from A-B for a £100K less? 
No point, especially now when canals are closing due to breakages and lack of water, so no matter what boat you’ve got everyone’s in the same boat as they say.😂
 

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, Mike Griffin said:

Yes was an interesting programe,  Personally I do not trust a lithium Batteries and a battery bank that size treat with the utmost caution. Once on fire it would burn for weeks.

Except that's not true for LFP batteries which are used on boats, is it?

 

Yes I know about the ABC dayboat fire, there have been many discussions about it both here and elsewhere -- it was not a "lithium battery fire" as sensationally described online and in the tabloid press, from other chemistries which can't easily be extinguished because they emit their own oxygen.

 

Perhaps you should do some reading up on the subject before making statements like that? 🙂 

 

7 minutes ago, BoatingLifeUpNorth2 said:

Maybe their budget never stretched to the extra cost of a full Lithium install, they set their budget for £230K and the builder gave them/his best boat for the price. That’s what sensible new buyers do. Why spend an extra £100K on an electric/lithium/solar boat when you can have a good boat that gets you from A-B for a £100K less? 
No point, especially now when canals are closing due to breakages and lack of water, so no matter what boat you’ve got everyone’s in the same boat as they say.😂
 

Still seems strange, LFP battery prices have dropped so much that for a given usable capacity they're now cheaper than LA (or "lead-carbon"), so I don't think cost was the reason.

More likely is that the installer was familiar with LA (alternators etc) and wary of the complexities of an LFP installation, and decided to stick with what they knew. Good for the installer, not so good for the customer... 😞 

Edited July 30 by IanD

[Lady M]

Maybe the customer was more familiar with LA.

[MtB]

11 minutes ago, Mike Griffin said:

Yes was an interesting programe,  Personally I do not trust a lithium Batteries and a battery bank that size treat with the utmost caution. Once on fire it would burn for weeks.

 

Hardly. 

 

Even the ABC fire, the worst ever LFP fire on a boat, only burned for a few hours. 

 

 

[IanD]

51 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Hardly. 

 

Even the ABC fire, the worst ever LFP fire on a boat, only burned for a few hours. 

 

And going by the photos of the damage, most of the fire and the fuel for it was the wooden linings and fittings inside the boat -- only one of the three LFP batteries (the one that started the fire) was burned out internally, the other two were just scorched/burned from the outside and the LFP cells didn't look like they caught fire at all.

[Chris John]

2 hours ago, Mike Griffin said:

Yes was an interesting programe,  Personally I do not trust a lithium Batteries and a battery bank that size treat with the utmost caution. Once on fire it would burn for weeks.

Oh here we go again 🥱 

3 hours ago, blackrose said:

I watched an episode on More4 last night showing a couple who spent £230K on a bright yellow all electric narrowboat, built at Swan Boat Builders in Liverpool.

 

As usual, the presenter and the couple having the boat built were only concerned with superficial things like the colour, a big heart shaped window at the bow and heart shapes cut into the steelwork, plus of course the high-spec interior finish. It's a lot of money so you get what you want. They'd actually chosen electric drive because they thought their dog was disturbed by the diesel engine when they'd previously hired a narrow boat. I guess the auxiliary diesel generator on their new boat was much quieter and vibrated less than a modern diesel engine. It's amazing what people do for their dogs in this country. If it was me I'd just let the dog get used to the noise.

 

I don't know how old the episode was but what surprised me most was the huge lead-carbon battery bank. Perhaps I was watching an old repeat, but having spent so much money I wondered why it wasn't lithium?

It was filmed last year. 

[blackrose]

2 hours ago, Lady M said:

The purchasers were keen to stick to their budget.  

 

Which was massive and surely could have accommodated LFP batteries? As Tony said, there's probably not much difference in price between lead-carbon and LFP.

2 hours ago, BoatingLifeUpNorth2 said:

Maybe their budget never stretched to the extra cost of a full Lithium install, they set their budget for £230K and the builder gave them/his best boat for the price. That’s what sensible new buyers do. Why spend an extra £100K on an electric/lithium/solar boat when you can have a good boat that gets you from A-B for a £100K less? 
 

 

Where did the extra £100K come from? There's really not that much difference in price between lithium batteries and top of the range varieties of lead-acid anymore.

 

Also using your rationale, why spend an extra £100K on a fully electric boat in the first place when a diesel engine would get you from A-B?

[IanD]

18 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Which was massive and surely could have accommodated LFP batteries? As Tony said, there's probably not much difference in price between lead-carbon and LFP.

 

Where did the extra £100K come from? There's really not that much difference in price between lithium batteries and top of the range varieties of lead-acid anymore.

 

Also using your rationale, why spend an extra £100K on a fully electric boat in the first place when a diesel engine would get you from A-B?

The extra cost of an electric boat over a diesel is not £100k, actual premium (from boatbuilders) is at most £50k nowadays, maybe less depending on things like battery/motor/drive/inverter cost/size/quality. The cost difference between LFP and LA/LC batteries is now negligible, maybe LFP is actually cheaper for the same usable capacity.

 

So the cost of a new boat is largely down to the builder and the quality/cost of the build/fitout -- a well-fitted-out boat from someone like Braidbar or Finesse on a "quality" hull (e.g. Tyler/Wilson) will certainly cost considerably more than a superficially similar (on paper) boat from someone like Colecraft or Swan, regardless of whether it's diesel or electric.

Edited July 30 by IanD

[BoatingLifeUpNorth2]

40 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Which was massive and surely could have accommodated LFP batteries? As Tony said, there's probably not much difference in price between lead-carbon and LFP.

 

Where did the extra £100K come from? There's really not that much difference in price between lithium batteries and top of the range varieties of lead-acid anymore.

 

Also using your rationale, why spend an extra £100K on a fully electric boat in the first place when a diesel engine would get you from A-B?

I was talking about their budget. They’ve got a perfectly adequate electric boat for £230K so would buying a £300K-£350K be any better for getting from A-B and if you walked through their boat and a one excess of £300K would it look like there’s a £100K difference to you’re average person?

 I haven’t seen the programme but have seen new boats over £300K and new boats costing less than £200K I often wonder which one makes the owner happier, especially when the shells are built by the same shell builder.

 The way the canals are going with breakages/stoppages and closures due to the lack of water, I would be wary  buying a new boat or any expensive secondhand boat at present, as the future is looking a bit unpredictable with last year and this year. A bit dis heartening in all honesty☹️

[LadyG]

4 hours ago, Lady M said:

The purchasers were keen to stick to their budget.  

Irony?

[Lady M]

Not intended by me.

[Tony Brooks]

45 minutes ago, BoatingLifeUpNorth2 said:

I was talking about their budget. They’ve got a perfectly adequate electric boat for £230K

 

Yes, but what about the ongoing cost of new lead carbon batteries, although one hopes they will have a higher cyclic life than typical leisure batteries it will be way, way less than LFPs, and they will still sulphate if not kept virtually fully charged. Even if they fully recharge them every day sulphation or cyclic life will finish them off long before LFPs. If you are correct then it looks to me like opting for a cheaper initial cost at the cost of much greater long term costs.

[IanD]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Yes, but what about the ongoing cost of new lead carbon batteries, although one hopes they will have a higher cyclic life than typical leisure batteries it will be way, way less than LFPs, and they will still sulphate if not kept virtually fully charged. Even if they fully recharge them every day sulphation or cyclic life will finish them off long before LFPs. If you are correct then it looks to me like opting for a cheaper initial cost at the cost of much greater long term costs.

But I don't think even the initial cost is lower any more, at least not for the same usable capacity...

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

But I don't think even the initial cost is lower any more, at least not for the same usable capacity...

 

Which is what I suggested, it was BLUN2 that suggested that it was and that might be the reason for battery choice. I still think it was probably a bum steer from the builder/fitter because they were not familiar with LFP batteries. If so then I suspect that we can look forward to them moaning about the expense of changing to LFP when their lead carbons expire.

 

 

[IanD]

42 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Which is what I suggested, it was BLUN2 that suggested that it was and that might be the reason for battery choice. I still think it was probably a bum steer from the builder/fitter because they were not familiar with LFP batteries. If so then I suspect that we can look forward to them moaning about the expense of changing to LFP when their lead carbons expire.

 

 

4 x Fogstar 24V 334Ah 300A gives 48V 668Ah 600A (32kWh) for £4400 (£138/kWh) -- less than a third of what my Winston/REC-BMS setup cost 3 years ago... 😞 
 

With LC batteries you'd probably use the Leoch 2V cells and connect 24 in series, the 600Ah ones are £155 each from Torqmar so that's £3700 -- but this would be lower usable capacity, 28.8kWh nominal (£132/kWh) but with lower usable SoC too.

 

So no cost saving with LC even using nominal capacity, and more expensive then LFP if you compare usable capacity.

[ditchcrawler]

6 hours ago, Mike Griffin said:

Yes was an interesting programe,  Personally I do not trust a lithium Batteries and a battery bank that size treat with the utmost caution. Once on fire it would burn for weeks.

How about Hydrogen, A faulty charger could make lots of that 

[blackrose]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Which is what I suggested, it was BLUN2 that suggested that it was and that might be the reason for battery choice. I still think it was probably a bum steer from the builder/fitter because they were not familiar with LFP batteries. If so then I suspect that we can look forward to them moaning about the expense of changing to LFP when their lead carbons expire.

 

 

 

I'm sure you're right. I'm not sure how big that battery bank was but it looked huge. Imagine having to replace that lot after a few years! 😮 

Of course with LFP you have more usable capacity so it wouldn't necessarily need to be a like-for-like replacement in terms of Ah capacity, but it would still cost a lot of money.

[IanD]

40 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

How about Hydrogen, A faulty charger could make lots of that 

Also with LA... 😉 

[blackrose]

4 hours ago, BoatingLifeUpNorth2 said:

I was talking about their budget. They’ve got a perfectly adequate electric boat for £230K so would buying a £300K-£350K be any better for getting from A-B and if you walked through their boat and a one excess of £300K would it look like there’s a £100K difference to you’re average person?

 I haven’t seen the programme but have seen new boats over £300K and new boats costing less than £200K I often wonder which one makes the owner happier, especially when the shells are built by the same shell builder.

 

 

No it wouldn't be any better, but I never suggested they should spend any more money so I don't really get your point. They wouldn't have needed to spend any more money for the same boat with an equivalent LFP battery bank. I think they made a mistake with the batteries they ended up with.

 

Even if I had the money, I personally wouldn't want a pristine boat with an immaculate paint job like that especially for CCing - as they said they wanted to do in their retirement. They were solely concerned about the inside & outside finish of the boat but as soon as they end up in some bushes or under an overhanging tree, or scraping against a lock wall it will no longer be pristine, so they'll be afraid to take it anywhere. 

Edited July 30 by blackrose