Ruston Hornsby 2VSHM help needed

[kevgermany]

Hi, I'm trying to help a friend get this engine to run. Pumps and injectors have been serviced. Bled through to injector pipes. So much compression that as soon as the decompression is released, it stops turning. On the electric start it keeps turning, but doesn't fire. 

I wanted to check the pump/injector timing, but can't find the timing pointer. Plus the flywheel has 2 lines, one plain and one with a 2 label. 

Any ideas please?

[MtB]

1 minute ago, kevgermany said:

Hi, I'm trying to help a friend get this engine to run. Pumps and injectors have been serviced. Bled through to injector pipes. So much compression that as soon as the decompression is released, it stops turning. On the electric start it keeps turning, but doesn't fire. 

I wanted to check the pump/injector timing, but can't find the timing pointer. Plus the flywheel has 2 lines, one plain and one with a 2 label. 

Any ideas please?

 

A lovely engine. 

 

Some history would be helpful. Have you ever seen it run? Was it running ok before the pump and injector service (other than being smokey)?

 

Structurally it sounds fine given your comments about it stopping dead on release of decompressors, so it muat be a fuel problem. How old is the diesel in the tank? Are you sure its good diesel and not an emulsion of diesel and condensation? 

 

When you say bled through to injector pipes, this is at the injector unions I imagine? 

 

Can't help with the timing lines. I have an idea Longboat Engineering are Ruston specialists. Also the narrow gauge railway enthusiasts. 

 

 

[kevgermany]

Thanks.

Running... a video was sent of it running, roughly IMHO. But was never demonstrated and the seller said it was hard to start.

Diesel is v fresh/clean and red. Other boat running well on the same batch.

Bled through injector pipes which were loosened on the injectors.

[MtB]

4 hours ago, kevgermany said:

Running... a video was sent of it running, roughly IMHO. But was never demonstrated and the seller said it was hard to start.

 

This whole situation sounds dead fishy to me. In fact I'm floundering about. 

 

Your friend bought a boat on the basis of seeing a video of the engine running, but has never seen it run in real life? 

 

Being described hard to start seems like code for "doesn't run" to me, being a cynical type of chap. Hopefully the boat was cheap. I'm inclined to suspect the boat was sold because the seller has tried their best to get it running right and given up. I'm also inclined to agree the fault is probably the injection timing, if you trust the quality of workmanship refurbishing the injector pump and injectors. There are a lot of things that could be wrong now though and I'm out of my depth. I'm posting really to see if any of the more knowledgeable people here might be tempted to comment. 

 

 

 

 

[Mike Griffin]

 Which boat is this off.........sounds like the engine off a friends boat, was a 'bugger' to start unless you had the 'knack'..........

[Tony Brooks]

Does it have a cold start device/button on the injector pump, and if so was it activated? I don't know the engine so perhaps someone who does can advise. Otherwise, I tend to agree with "if it has fuel and good compression then think timing".

 

Does it emit clouds of whitish "smoke" from the exhaust while cranking? If it is only a few wisps then that suggests a fuel problem. Pull and injector, invert it on its pipe, stand well clear and crank it. That should allow you see the spray pattern and if it really is injecting. KEEP WELL AWAY FROM THE SPRAY and no naked flames or sparks.

[kevgermany]

5 hours ago, MtB said:

 

This whole situation sounds dead fishy to me. In fact I'm floundering about. 

 

Your friend bought a boat on the basis of seeing a video of the engine running, but has never seen it run in real life? 

 

Being described hard to start seems like code for "doesn't run" to me, being a cynical type of chap. Hopefully the boat was cheap. I'm inclined to suspect the boat was sold because the seller has tried their best to get it running right and given up. I'm also inclined to agree the fault is probably the injection timing, if you trust the quality of workmanship refurbishing the injector pump and injectors. There are a lot of things that could be wrong now though and I'm out of my depth. I'm posting really to see if any of the more knowledgeable people here might be tempted to comment. 

 

 

 

 

No, it's genuine. Engine is on a pallette, not in a boat. Yes, he should have insisted on seeing it run. But thanks.

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

Does it have a cold start device/button on the injector pump, and if so was it activated? I don't know the engine so perhaps someone who does can advise. Otherwise, I tend to agree with "if it has fuel and good compression then think timing".

 

Does it emit clouds of whitish "smoke" from the exhaust while cranking? If it is only a few wisps then that suggests a fuel problem. Pull and injector, invert it on its pipe, stand well clear and crank it. That should allow you see the spray pattern and if it really is injecting. KEEP WELL AWAY FROM THE SPRAY and no naked flames or sparks.

Just wisps. Hard to judge if it's enough fuel. Good idea to pull the injectors.

[Mike Griffin]

OK, so not in a boat at the moment........my pal's Ruston needed a gas blow lamp up the inlet manifold to warm it up well and a good starter battery to achieve a steady turn over, get it turning over for a while and then flick the decompression lever shut.........it generally started.

[kevgermany]

1 minute ago, Mike Griffin said:

OK, so not in a boat at the moment........my pal's Ruston needed a gas blow lamp up the inlet manifold to warm it up well and a good starter battery to achieve a steady turn over, get it turning over for a while and then flick the decompression lever shut.........it generally started.

We've tried the blow lamp trick. Sorry, I should have said. I guess the turning over for a while got quite a bit of diesel in the cylinders. I'm thinking not enough fuel. Strange thing is that we tried it on easy start (no lectures please) before the injectors and pumps were done, no joy.

[Tony Brooks]

I think that I am correct to say that RN advise/sell a special tool to manually work the injector pump elements to inject fuel into the cylinders before cold starting. I just wonder if Ruston-Hornsby require something similar.

 

7 minutes ago, Mike Griffin said:

OK, so not in a boat at the moment........my pal's Ruston needed a gas blow lamp up the inlet manifold to warm it up well and a good starter battery to achieve a steady turn over, get it turning over for a while and then flick the decompression lever shut.........it generally started.

 

That sounds a bit like low compression to me IF Rustons are typically good cold starters.

[David Mack]

6 minutes ago, Mike Griffin said:

OK, so not in a boat at the moment........my pal's Ruston needed a gas blow lamp up the inlet manifold to warm it up well and a good starter battery to achieve a steady turn over, get it turning over for a while and then flick the decompression lever shut.........it generally started.

Maybe in the depths of winter, but an engine with good compression should not need that at this time of year.

[kevgermany]

7 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Maybe in the depths of winter, but an engine with good compression should not need that at this time of year.

We've been talking to a friend who used to have one. His advice was bleed fully before every start and do the blowlamp warm up every time. Doesn't make sense to me, but that's how he got his going. 

I was able to download a manual. Says bleed before starting, but also says easy to start. No mention of pre heat.

Gut feel is something is wrong if it always needs heat.

11 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I think that I am correct to say that RN advise/sell a special tool to manually work the injector pump elements to inject fuel into the cylinders before cold starting. I just wonder if Ruston-Hornsby require something similar.

 

 

That sounds a bit like low compression to me IF Rustons are typically good cold starters.

Nothing in the manual about a tool like that.

[David Mack]

12 hours ago, kevgermany said:

Bled through to injector pipes.

With the nuts at the injector end of the high pressure pipes loose, is there a steady flow of bubble-free diesel leaking out when the engine is cranked?

Is the engine speed control set to at least the middle speed position (and any engine stop control set to 'run')?

5 minutes ago, kevgermany said:

His advice was bleed fully before every start

Once bled it should stay bled. That suggests that either there is an air leak somewhere in the fuel system, or possibly that the injector leak off pipe is connected back to the fuel filter rather than the tank, so any air in the system is constantly recycled.

[kevgermany]

33 minutes ago, David Mack said:

With the nuts at the injector end of the high pressure pipes loose, is there a steady flow of bubble-free diesel leaking out when the engine is cranked?

Is the engine speed control set to at least the middle speed position (and any engine stop control set to 'run')?

Once bled it should stay bled. That suggests that either there is an air leak somewhere in the fuel system, or possibly that the injector leak off pipe is connected back to the fuel filter rather than the tank, so any air in the system is constantly recycled.

I'll have another go, taking all this into account and get back to you.

[Peugeot 106]

Picture please?

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, kevgermany said:

We've been talking to a friend who used to have one. His advice was bleed fully before every start and do the blowlamp warm up every time. Doesn't make sense to me, but that's how he got his going. 

I was able to download a manual. Says bleed before starting, but also says easy to start. No mention of pre heat.

Gut feel is something is wrong if it always needs heat.

Nothing in the manual about a tool like that.

 

Thanks, one more for my brain to try to remember.

 

 

[MtB]

3 hours ago, kevgermany said:

Strange thing is that we tried it on easy start (no lectures please) before the injectors and pumps were done, no joy.

 

This troubles me. Not for the usual knee-jerk objections about engines getting 'addicted' to easy start but because easy start completely bypasses the diesel fuel system and I'd expect a structurally sound engine to fire and run intermittently as you spray meagre squirts of easy start into the inlet.

 

But if even easy start doesn't make it run, then I reckon you have something big wrong, e.g. a broken timing chain. Have to taken the rocker cover off and seen the valves opening and closing as you turn it over? If yes, then perhaps the chain may have jumped a tooth or two and messed up the valve timing. 

 

Also, please answer Tony's question about what you see issuing from the exhaust pipe when cranking it over. (Unless you did and I missed it!)

 

 

[David Mack]

7 minutes ago, MtB said:

Also, please answer Tony's question about what you see issuing from the exhaust pipe when cranking it over. (Unless you did and I missed it!)

 

Just wisps according to the OP about 3 hours ago.

 

(Autocorrect wanted to change that to 'wasps')!

[MtB]

32 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Just wisps according to the OP about 3 hours ago.

 

(Autocorrect wanted to change that to 'wasps')!

 

Thanks!

 

Shame it wasn't wasps.  A wasp nest blocking the exhaust could have been an easy fix! 

 

 

 

 

[kevgermany]

3 hours ago, MtB said:

 

This troubles me. Not for the usual knee-jerk objections about engines getting 'addicted' to easy start but because easy start completely bypasses the diesel fuel system and I'd expect a structurally sound engine to fire and run intermittently as you spray meagre squirts of easy start into the inlet.

 

But if even easy start doesn't make it run, then I reckon you have something big wrong, e.g. a broken timing chain. Have to taken the rocker cover off and seen the valves opening and closing as you turn it over? If yes, then perhaps the chain may have jumped a tooth or two and messed up the valve timing. 

 

Also, please answer Tony's question about what you see issuing from the exhaust pipe when cranking it over. (Unless you did and I missed it!)

 

 

Yes, valves open and close, and I set the tappets to .007".

I did answer, small whisps.

Yes I agree. We're at the crux of it. Valve and pump timing. But I do want to check reasonable flow from injectors. 

Owner doesn't want to put time into it at the moment. So close.

 

 

 

[MtB]

1 hour ago, kevgermany said:

I did answer, small whisps.

 

Thanks. 

 

I'd have thought this indicates the fuel is not being properly atomised as it sprays into the cylinder. Same happening on both cylinders or you''d stiull get some white 'smoke'. White 'smoke' would indicate fuel that was atomised but not burned. Small whisps would suggest to me little or no atomisation. You also mentioned the cylinders getting a lot of fuel in them so possibly the injectors are not spraying and atomising correctly. Tony knows more about this stuff than me though.

 

I agree, cranking it over with injectors removed but still connected (with great care to keep away from the spray) might be very revealing. When your friend gets time to do it. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

 

 

33 minutes ago, MtB said:

I'd have thought this indicates the fuel is not being properly atomised as it sprays into the cylinder. Same happening on both cylinders or you''d stiull get some white 'smoke'. White 'smoke' would indicate fuel that was atomised but not burned. Small whisps would suggest to me little or no atomisation. You also mentioned the cylinders getting a lot of fuel in them so possibly the injectors are not spraying and atomising correctly. Tony knows more about this stuff than me though.

 

I agree, cranking it over with injectors removed but still connected (with great care to keep away from the spray) might be very revealing. When your friend gets time to do it. 

 

 

If the chap tries the inverted injector test then what he should see is a finely atomised jet or jets, depending on type of nozzle that might be a hollow cone if the nozzles have pintles. There should also be a residue of very fine fuel droplets floating about in the air, especially in a shaft of light.

 

What he should not see is solid or torn jets of fuel or fuel leaking from the nozzle after the injection, but that is easier to see on an injector tester where you can hold the pressure just below opening pressure.

 

Even if the injectors are jetting, I would have thought he would get more than a few wisps of smoke if there is sufficient compression. I am not sure how he knows the cylinders are getting a lot of fuel in them unless drops are being blown out of the exhaust.

[MtB]

27 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Even if the injectors are jetting, I would have thought he would get more than a few wisps of smoke if there is sufficient compression.

 

I'd have thought so too but that's a big "if" there. 

 

Diesels are not like petrol engines. 130PSI of compression (say) on a diesel 'feels' like plenty of compression when hand-cranking it (which I think the OP mentioned doing) but isn't enough to make it fire. I think the OP would be well advised to buy one of those cheap diesel compression testing kits on ebay and also measure the compression while the injectors are out.

[Tony Brooks]

28 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I'd have thought so too but that's a big "if" there. 

 

Diesels are not like petrol engines. 130PSI of compression (say) on a diesel 'feels' like plenty of compression when hand-cranking it (which I think the OP mentioned doing) but isn't enough to make it fire. I think the OP would be well advised to buy one of those cheap diesel compression testing kits on ebay and also measure the compression while the injectors are out.

 

I agree, I would want to see close to 400 psi.

[stagedamager]

we are assuming the flywheel is on the correct position on the crank...... i know the chances are slim, but could the timing be that far out... could there be chance the engine had work and the flywheel was put on without it going back in the correct position??