Lithium batteries

luggsy · July 13

With so many different LiFePO4 batteries now available what is the best one to buy now with a smart programmable BMS not the cheapest

thanks in advance

Edited July 13 by luggsy

Rob-M · July 13

There are rumours that the BSS and/or insurance companies will require an integrated vendor solution such as all Victron.

Alan de Enfield · July 13

Rumours abound - my personal recommendation would be to do nothing until the specification / requiremenst are finalised and issued.

Why spend £1000s only to (potentially) have to rip them and start again because what you chose to do, was not what the insurance industry wanted to do.

Your boat

Your money

Your choice.

blackrose · July 13

Rumours, gossip, inuendo... much of it on this forum...

There's no evidence that there will ever be a standard, universal set of insurance requirements for LiFePo4 batteries on boats, so if you are waiting for clear advice you might be waiting a very long time.

I bought Fogstar Drift and they are very good. I'm not sure about smart, programmable BMS? I just leave that bit alone.

I know you don't want cheap, but this is a good deal. I paid £1,060 for 2 x 280ah 18 months ago.

12V 460Ah Lithium Leisure Battery | Fogstar UK

The ECO models seem cheap but I think they are limited in terms of power output, so probably best avoided..

Edited July 13 by blackrose

IanD · July 13

42 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

There are rumours that the BSS and/or insurance companies will require an integrated vendor solution such as all Victron.

As someone involved in the discussions, I think I can say that's definitely not true.

A safe LFP installation can be either single-vendor (like Victron) or mix-and-match, but the second one relies more on the installer to get it right.

Fogstar Drift Pro are a good choice for the batteries, and are supposed to integrate easily with a Victron system.

Edited July 13 by IanD

Alan de Enfield · July 13

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

As someone involved in the discussions, I think I can say that's not true.

A safe LFP installation can be either single-vendor (like Victron) or mix-and-match, but the second one relies more on the installer to get it right.

It appears that @luggsy may be looking to DIY the components purchase and their install.

Is the existing guidance available likely to be sufficient for him to "get it right" ?

David Mack · July 13

34 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

There are rumours that the BSS and/or insurance companies will require an integrated vendor solution such as all Victron.

Very unlikely that a single manufacturer's products will be mandated, either by a standards body or an insurer. Not only would that likely be in breach of competition law, but it could make the standards body or insurer liable if that single manufacturer's product turns out to be unsafe.

28 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Why spend £1000s only to (potentially) have to rip them and start again because what you chose to do, was not what the insurance industry wanted to do.

You would only have to rip out an installation if the new standards are retrospective. Usually existing installations are allowed to remain, at least for a number of years. Only new installations have to meet new requirements.

blackrose · July 13

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It appears that @luggsy may be looking to DIY the components purchase and their install.

Is the existing guidance available likely to be sufficient for him to "get it right" ?

Ah, that's a different kettle of johnnies. Isn't building your own LiFePo4 batteries bound to attract more scrutiny than installing off-the-shelf from a reputable manufacturer?

Alan de Enfield · July 13

2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

You would only have to rip out an installation if the new standards are retrospective. Usually existing installations are allowed to remain, at least for a number of years. Only new installations have to meet new requirements.

The BSS apply equirements retrospectively.

IanD · July 13

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

It appears that @luggsy may be looking to DIY the components purchase and their install.

Is the existing guidance available likely to be sufficient for him to "get it right" ?

That depends how knowledgeable he is about electrics in general and LFP batteries and their charging requirements more specifically.

The problem with DIY installs is that there are people who know what they're doing like @nicknorman but they're greatly outnumbered by those who don't -- but often think they do (Dunning-Kreuger).

I will just quote this from the (soon-to-be-issued) IWA/CA Guidance Note:

"This document could also be used by competent individuals as a starting point for self-installation but the IWA and the CA would not recommend self-installation for the vast majority of members."

David Mack · July 13

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Is the existing guidance available likely to be sufficient for him to "get it right" ?

The latest guidance recommends a professional install, which would seem to rule out DIY. And rather flies in the face of experience of hundreds of DIY installations in boats, RVs and off-grid systems which are working just fine, whereas the one serious incident (at least in the UK) was a professional installation.

1 minute ago, IanD said:

I will just quote this from the (soon-to-be-issued) IWA/CA Guidance Note:

"This document could also be used by competent individuals as a starting point for self-installation but the IWA and the CA would not recommend self-installation for the vast majority of members."

CA?

IanD · July 13

5 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Very unlikely that a single manufacturer's products will be mandated, either by a standards body or an insurer. Not only would that likely be in breach of competition law, but it could make the standards body or insurer liable if that single manufacturer's product turns out to be unsafe.

You would only have to rip out an installation if the new standards are retrospective. Usually existing installations are allowed to remain, at least for a number of years. Only new installations have to meet new requirements.

That's true for regulations, but it's not true for insurers -- if they specify what is and isn't acceptable to them to provide cover, it's going to apply regardless of when the install was done... 😞

Alan de Enfield · July 13

2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

The latest guidance recommends a professional install, which would seem to rule out DIY. And rather flies in the face of experience of hundreds of DIY installations in boats, RVs and off-grid systems which are working just fine, whereas the one serious incident (at least in the UK) was a professional installation.

Which is why I'd wait until the way forward is agreed and standardised.

No point doing a DIY if a surveyor comes alogg and says you need to pay £4000 for a PCA .

Russ T · July 13

It might be worth asking on the 12v boating group if you do Facebook.

luggsy · July 13

Hi I already have a lithium hybrid I was just looking for another one , my current one was purchased of mark but seeing he is no longer in business I was just looking for another for one that I can just add to my existing one

IanD · July 13

33 minutes ago, David Mack said:

The latest guidance recommends a professional install, which would seem to rule out DIY. And rather flies in the face of experience of hundreds of DIY installations in boats, RVs and off-grid systems which are working just fine, whereas the one serious incident (at least in the UK) was a professional installation.

CA?

CA=Cruising Association.

No it does not rule out DIY (and neither do any of the standards) if that DIYer is sufficiently competent -- and yes, how that is defined is a problem, given that how a professional installer is defined as competent isn't exactly clear -- and some probably aren't...

That's why the advice says what it does. I think it's likely that in future DIY LFP installations will have to pass some kind of inspection, like LPG today (see below).

The ABC dayboat fire was indeed a professional installation, and it seems likely that they cocked it up. So just think how much riskier allowing naive DIY YouTube-level installers would be... 😉

Before you say "but this was a one-off event", take a look at the numbers.

An LFP battery (and system) is similar in many ways to an LPG gas cylinder (and system) -- there's a lot of energy stored in there and if it escapes things can go boom. This risk is well understood for gas which is why there are all the regulations (gas locker with gas drain overboard, pipes, connectors, taps, who is allowed to install them) and nobody thinks there's anything strange about that.

And that works -- out of maybe 30000 boats with gas on the inland waterways there are about 3 explosions per year on average, which is 0.01%.

Now consider electric drive boats -- my guess is there are maybe 100 on the canals, and last year one of them blew up. That's 1%, 100x bigger... 😞 And it's the only data point anyone has -- maybe it won't happen again for 10 years or 100 years, maybe it'll happen again this year. What you can say is that if LFP (electric drive, as installed today) was as safe as gas (as installed today) the odds against that accident happening were 100:1 -- but it happened, which suggests that LFP as installed today is not as safe as people think/hope.

So why would anyone think that LFP batteries shouldn't have similar restrictions to LPG gas bottles? (not in living space, vented overboard)

And why wouldn't LFP charging systems -- because overcharging is what makes them go boom, see ABC dayboat -- not have similar regulations to gas fittings? (where leakages make them go boom) And restrictions on who can/can't install them -- or that a DIY install has to be inspected/passed by a "professional" before use, like gas?

P.S. Those numbers above apply to electric drive installations, not domestic power -- and the IWA/CA note is specifically for domestic power. But the principles remain the same... 😉

P.P.S. On insurance, the Guidance Note says this (my bold):

"Owners must inform their insurer before installing lithium batteries and not assume that a lithium domestic battery installation is automatically covered under an existing policy. Most insurers apply conditions on the type of battery, professional installation, charging arrangements, storage, fire protection, unattended charging or the carriage of specific extinguishers."

Edited July 13 by IanD

Russ T · July 13

19 minutes ago, luggsy said:

Hi I already have a lithium hybrid I was just looking for another one , my current one was purchased of mark but seeing he is no longer in business I was just looking for another for one that I can just add to my existing one

I believe Mark now works for Fogstar,But I believe fogstar no longer support hybrid installations.

However,it might still be worth asking him for a recommendation,or there are loads of other recommendations on 12v boating group

Alan de Enfield · July 13

40 minutes ago, IanD said:

CA=Cruising Association.

No it does not rule out DIY (and neither do any of the standards) if that DIYer is sufficiently competent -- and yes, how that is defined is a problem, given that how a professional installer is defined as competent isn't exactly clear -- and some probably aren't...

That's why the advice says what it does. I think it's likely that in future DIY LFP installations will have to pass some kind of inspection, like LPG today (see below).

The ABC dayboat fire was indeed a professional installation, and it seems likely that they cocked it up. So just think how much riskier allowing naive DIY YouTube-level installers would be... 😉

Before you say "but this was a one-off event", take a look at the numbers.

An LFP battery (and system) is similar in many ways to an LPG gas cylinder (and system) -- there's a lot of energy stored in there and if it escapes things can go boom. This risk is well understood for gas which is why there are all the regulations (gas locker with gas drain overboard, pipes, connectors, taps, who is allowed to install them) and nobody thinks there's anything strange about that.

And that works -- out of maybe 30000 boats with gas on the inland waterways there are about 3 explosions per year on average, which is 0.01%.

Now consider electric drive boats -- my guess is there are maybe 100 on the canals, and last year one of them blew up. That's 1%, 100x bigger... 😞 And it's the only data point anyone has -- maybe it won't happen again for 10 years or 100 years, maybe it'll happen again this year. What you can say is that if LFP (electric drive, as installed today) was as safe as gas (as installed today) the odds against that accident happening were 100:1 -- but it happened, which suggests that LFP as installed today is not as safe as people think/hope.

So why would anyone think that LFP batteries shouldn't have similar restrictions to LPG gas bottles? (not in living space, vented overboard)

And why wouldn't LFP charging systems -- because overcharging is what makes them go boom, see ABC dayboat -- not have similar regulations to gas fittings? (where leakages make them go boom) And restrictions on who can/can't install them -- or that a DIY install has to be inspected/passed by a "professional" before use, like gas?

P.S. Those numbers above apply to electric drive installations, not domestic power -- and the IWA/CA note is specifically for domestic power. But the principles remain the same... 😉

P.P.S. On insurance, the Guidance Note says this (my bold):

"Owners must inform their insurer before installing lithium batteries and not assume that a lithium domestic battery installation is automatically covered under an existing policy. Most insurers apply conditions on the type of battery, professional installation, charging arrangements, storage, fire protection, unattended charging or the carriage of specific extinguishers."

And to date, no one has the correct answer.

jonathanA · July 13

44 minutes ago, IanD said:

Now consider electric drive boats -- my guess is there are maybe 100 on the canals, and last year one of them blew up. That's 1%, 100x bigger... 😞 And it's the only data point anyone has -- maybe it won't happen again for 10 years or 100 years, maybe it'll happen again this year. What you can say is that if LFP (electric drive, as installed today) was as safe as gas (as installed today) the odds against that accident happening were 100:1 -- but it happened, which suggests that LFP as installed today is not as safe as people think/hope.

So why would anyone think that LFP batteries shouldn't have similar restrictions to LPG gas bottles? (not in living space, vented overboard)

I can't help think you are confusing electric drive and domestic systems... so the 1 % argument is fair enough for drive systems and I would suggest the very large amount of stored energy in a full electric drive system warrants more care.

However what's the percentage of boats with LFP domestic batteries? Based on this forum its at least 30% maybe nearer 50% so let's say 10,000 boats have some lfp install ? How many reported cases of fires with boat lfp systems. ? None ? A handful of poor long wire installs maybe?

So accepting that in the one known fault condition for LFP, of over charging causes more gas than for an equivalent LA Isn't that the fairly unlikely situation that needs looking at and isn't your assertion that LFP installs are as dangerous as gas installs typical of the hysteria that is coloring the whole Lithium battery debate ?

MtB · July 13

55 minutes ago, IanD said:

And that works -- out of maybe 30000 boats with gas on the inland waterways there are about 3 explosions per year on average, which is 0.01%.

And just to point out gas explosions are not the only (or even the main) risk where DIY gas work is concerned. Carbon monoxide poisoning is far more common.

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Rumours abound - my personal recommendation would be to do nothing until the specification / requiremenst are finalised and issued.

WHAT????!!!!!

You'd have the OP struggle along with his existing batteries for another decade??!!

Alan de Enfield · July 13

3 minutes ago, MtB said:

And just to point out gas explosions are not the only (or even the main) risk where DIY gas work is concerned. Carbon monoxide poisoning is far more common.

WHAT????!!!!!

You'd have the OP struggle along with his existing batteries for another decade??!!

I reckon there is enough drive behind this that within 2 years it'll all be decided and published - could even be less.

IanD · July 13

24 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

I can't help think you are confusing electric drive and domestic systems... so the 1 % argument is fair enough for drive systems and I would suggest the very large amount of stored energy in a full electric drive system warrants more care.

However what's the percentage of boats with LFP domestic batteries? Based on this forum its at least 30% maybe nearer 50% so let's say 10,000 boats have some lfp install ? How many reported cases of fires with boat lfp systems. ? None ? A handful of poor long wire installs maybe?

So accepting that in the one known fault condition for LFP, of over charging causes more gas than for an equivalent LA Isn't that the fairly unlikely situation that needs looking at and isn't your assertion that LFP installs are as dangerous as gas installs typical of the hysteria that is coloring the whole Lithium battery debate ?

The "big hot dangerous" threshold for LFP batteries is something like 1kWh according to the ISO standards -- this is where it becomes too big to try and put any fire out (just get out!), the risk of emitting large quantities of toxic/flammable gas becomes too high, and precautions like venting/not in living space become necessary.

Yes propulsion batteries (like the ABC dayboat) obviously fall into this, but so do even small domestic LFP batteries -- a single 12V 105Ah for example. The amount of gas emitted from a grossly overcharged LFP battery is something above 100x that emitted from a gassing LA battery the same size, and that's the basic problem.

For this to happen, all that you need is a battery/BMS/charger failure like (it seems) happened on the ABC boat -- and this can happen just as easily on a domestic system as a propulsion one. The fact that it hasn't could be because there have not been many domestic LFP installs other than using drop-in batteries not rack-mount ones like in the ABC boat, but as numbers go up this kind of event is likely to recur.

Believe me, I've tried arguing that there have been lots of LFP batteries out there for years with no such problems, but this comes up against the brick wall which is that they all include similar components, and similar things can go wrong, and the consequences if this happens are similar. The risk might be small but the consequences are severe, and that's exactly what regulators and insurers don't like.

I think you'd have to conclude that as they're done at the moment LFP installs -- even domestic, and certainly electric drive -- probably *are* more dangerous per boat than LPG installs -- not 100x (though you could make a good case for this for electric drive), but they're certainly not as safe as everyone used to think... 😞

17 minutes ago, MtB said:

And just to point out gas explosions are not the only (or even the main) risk where DIY gas work is concerned. Carbon monoxide poisoning is far more common.

WHAT????!!!!!

You'd have the OP struggle along with his existing batteries for another decade??!!

Here are the actual numbers for fire/CO events -- gas escape averages out about 3 per year, electrical about 10, CO isn't separated out.

Edited July 13 by IanD

MtB · July 13

16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I reckon there is enough drive behind this that within 2 years it'll all be decided and published - could even be less.

Why is that then?

Has there really been a string of deaths or serious injuries from inadequate LFP installations?

At least with the CO monitor reg there was a small history of CO fatalities.

blackrose · July 13

I had a battery explosion after installing LiFePo4 batteries on my boat.

But it was a sealed lead/acid buffer battery that exploded as a result of me forgetting to remove the tiny vent plug!

Since I hadn't told my insurance company about the lithium battery installation I wasn't covered for the £80 lead/acid battery and all the old towels & rags and baking soda I used for the cleanup. 😋

36 minutes ago, MtB said:

At least with the CO monitor reg there was a small history of CO fatalities.

You say that like it's a good thing? 😋

David Mack · July 13

1 hour ago, IanD said:

The "big hot dangerous" threshold for LFP batteries is something like 1kWh according to the ISO standards -- this is where it becomes too big to try and put any fire out (just get out!), the risk of emitting large quantities of toxic/flammable gas becomes too high, and precautions like venting/not in living space become necessary.

Yes propulsion batteries (like the ABC dayboat) obviously fall into this, but so do even small domestic LFP batteries -- a single 12V 105Ah for example. The amount of gas emitted from a grossly overcharged LFP battery is something above 100x that emitted from a gassing LA battery the same size, and that's the basic problem.

For this to happen, all that you need is a battery/BMS/charger failure like (it seems) happened on the ABC boat -- and this can happen just as easily on a domestic system as a propulsion one. The fact that it hasn't could be because there have not been many domestic LFP installs other than using drop-in batteries not rack-mount ones like in the ABC boat, but as numbers go up this kind of event is likely to recur.

Believe me, I've tried arguing that there have been lots of LFP batteries out there for years with no such problems, but this comes up against the brick wall which is that they all include similar components, and similar things can go wrong, and the consequences if this happens are similar. The risk might be small but the consequences are severe, and that's exactly what regulators and insurers don't like.

I think you'd have to conclude that as they're done at the moment LFP installs -- even domestic, and certainly electric drive -- probably *are* more dangerous per boat than LPG installs -- not 100x (though you could make a good case for this for electric drive), but they're certainly not as safe as everyone used to think... 😞

Here are the actual numbers for fire/CO events -- gas escape averages out about 3 per year, electrical about 10, CO isn't separated out.

Given how high the "Not Known" category is in relation to the other listed causes, it is difficult to draw reliable conclusions about where the biggest risks lie.

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