Hello, when buying a boat privately, what documentation do you need to see?

[katynorthan more]

hello everyone,

(this question I am sure has been asked before).

when going to view a private boat sell, what documentation do you need to see as proof ?

that they own the boat or are selling it on someone's behalf.

 many thanks.

Katie

 

[mrsmelly]

Non whatsoever. 

[Tony Brooks]

There is none whatsoever. The best you can do is look for a paper trail of invoices for insurance, licence, mooring, repairs over a number of years, hopefully with name and address. The last and previous bills of sale. Then ask to see things like a driving licence that matches the vendor's image so you can check the name and address. If it is a post 1997 it should have hull identification number plus the boats technical manual and certificate showing it complies with the Recreational Craft Directive (RCD) or post Brexit the Recreational Craft Regulation (RCR).

 

The more paper history you can see the more likely the sale will be genuine.

[katynorthan more]

thank you

[Arthur Marshall]

All I've got to prove I own my boat is a thirty year old undated receipt. I do have licence records and BSS records.

[MtB]

41 minutes ago, katynorthan more said:

hello everyone,

(this question I am sure has been asked before).

when going to view a private boat sell, what documentation do you need to see as proof ?

that they own the boat or are selling it on someone's behalf.

 many thanks.

Katie

 

 

There is no definitive proof of ownership. But the best evidence to look for pointing in the right directions is firstly, as Tony says, a file full of paperwork (e.g. old CRT licenses, mooring fees, old BSS certificates etc) all bearing the name and address of the person purporting to the the owner selling it. No file of paperwork, be deeply suspicious.

 

The second thing to look for that points towards a genuine sale is the owner themselves showing you the boat. Not their brother, best mate or a broker. Then you get to ask them questions only the owner is likely to know e.g. "where is the water pump?" The owner will know instantly where it is but a broker or non-owner will have to think about it for a minute and maybe have a little search! Also ask where the water tank filler is, the diesel filler is, how they check the water tank level, diesel tank level, what sort of battery monitor there is and all manner of similar detail questions. The genuine owner will have instant answers to all of them. 

 

Finally, see how they cope with the boat on a trial cruise. Someone who knows the boat will be confident and cope admirably. A non-owner will probably have to think twice about starting the engine and what lines to untie...

[mrsmelly]

3 hours ago, MtB said:

 

There is no definitive proof of ownership. But the best evidence to look for pointing in the right directions is firstly, as Tony says, a file full of paperwork (e.g. old CRT licenses, mooring fees, old BSS certificates etc) all bearing the name and address of the person purporting to the the owner selling it. No file of paperwork, be deeply suspicious.

 

The second thing to look for that points towards a genuine sale is the owner themselves showing you the boat. Not their brother, best mate or a broker. Then you get to ask them questions only the owner is likely to know e.g. "where is the water pump?" The owner will know instantly where it is but a broker or non-owner will have to think about it for a minute and maybe have a little search! Also ask where the water tank filler is, the diesel filler is, how they check the water tank level, diesel tank level, what sort of battery monitor there is and all manner of similar detail questions. The genuine owner will have instant answers to all of them. 

 

Finally, see how they cope with the boat on a trial cruise. Someone who knows the boat will be confident and cope admirably. A non-owner will probably have to think twice about starting the engine and what lines to untie...

Nicked a few boats have you Mike 😜 

[LadyG]

I had a long way to travel and i found out that one of my potential boats was on a mooring. by chance, I phoned the mooring owner and he indicated he was owed money, i swerved that one. Probably a project, someone elses problem.

Before travelling, i researched, i knew i wanted something that looked good and was built by a good builder, and still in good condition. 

I did find one,  and bought it on the day, it was out of the water, so i could see the hull was in excellent condition.

Before travelling I asked for photo of some bills this included the original invoice, same owner!

 

Edited Thursday at 09:46 by LadyG

[MtB]

23 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Nicked a few boats have you Mike 😜 

 

Yeah, loads!! 

 

 

 

 

[MtB]

(You PROMISED you wouldn't tell anyone!) 

 

[Lady M]

And make sure you get a receipt for your money to help you prove ownership when the time comes to sell the boat.  

[LadyG]

55 minutes ago, Lady M said:

And make sure you get a receipt for your money to help you prove ownership when the time comes to sell the boat.  

Use a Bill of Sale, see RYA website. I have mine, signed by the owners agent, with addrresses of all signaturees. The Bill of Sale transfers the boat without encumbrances. No debts. Anyway, most finance due is normally a personal loan, not linked to the boat.

Edited Thursday at 09:52 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

30 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Use a Bill of Sale, see RYA website. I have mine, signed by the owners agent, with addrresses of all signaturees. The Bill of Sale transfers the boat without encumbrances. No debts. Anyway, most finance due is normally a personal loan, not linked to the boat.

 

In no any way you can trust just a bill of sale. A bill of sale can be as fraudulent as any other document. If it turned out that the boat had a debt against it the bill of sale would not have any validity apart from providing you with the means to prove the sale was fraudulent and thereby providing proof to satisfy the courts. By seeking confirmation of the vendor's identity and address before agreeing the sale also helps in the case of fraud. You have a better chance of knowing who to sue and where to send the paperwork.  However, even winning in court is likely to be of little value because a fraudster is unlikely to pay up without even more expense on your part.

 

I rather wish that you would stop implying that a bill of sale from the RYA or anywhere else gives much in the way of protection against a fraudulent sale.

Edited Thursday at 10:22 by Tony Brooks

[Lady M]

Any sort of paperwork that shows you paid for/bought the boat must be a good idea.

[Tony Brooks]

8 minutes ago, Lady M said:

Any sort of paperwork that shows you paid for/bought the boat must be a good idea.

 

Yes, but it is not the panacea LadyG seems to imply it is. The info it contains like the names and addresses need verifying in other ways. If push comes to shove I would suggest a Bill of Sale will not protect the new "owner" from losing the boat.

[Lady M]

Fair enough

[Alan de Enfield]

38 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Yes, but it is not the panacea LadyG seems to imply it is. The info it contains like the names and addresses need verifying in other ways. If push comes to shove I would suggest a Bill of Sale will not protect the new "owner" from losing the boat.

 

It is fairly remote, but you are correct - if the boat had a mortgage, or was stolen , then the seller is not the legal owner and he cannot sell the boat, the buyer would then be out of pocket as the boat was repossesed by the 'proper' owner (Bank, etc)

[LadyG]

16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

It is fairly remote, but you are correct - if the boat had a mortgage, or was stolen , then the seller is not the legal owner and he cannot sell the boat, the buyer would then be out of pocket as the boat was repossesed by the 'proper' owner (Bank, etc)

Even more remote is that the boat is linked to finance. This is not likely unless you also happen to be the commander in chief of the navy or a minor country.

If the seller backs out at your request of paperwork,  move on ...

I bought from people who proclaimed they were genuine and experienced in boat sales. They obviously had not been asked for proof, but they wanted my money and I wanted their boat. So they signed, names, addresses and phone numbers. If they refused I would have walked away. They did not refuse, they were genuine people 

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Even more remote is that the boat is linked to finance.

 

Isn't that what a mortgage is ?

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

In no any way you can trust just a bill of sale. A bill of sale can be as fraudulent as any other document. If it turned out that the boat had a debt against it the bill of sale would not have any validity apart from providing you with the means to prove the sale was fraudulent and thereby providing proof to satisfy the courts. By seeking confirmation of the vendor's identity and address before agreeing the sale also helps in the case of fraud. You have a better chance of knowing who to sue and where to send the paperwork.  However, even winning in court is likely to be of little value because a fraudster is unlikely to pay up without even more expense on your part.

 

I rather wish that you would stop implying that a bill of sale from the RYA or anywhere else gives much in the way of protection against a fraudulent sale.

I can assure you that the Bill of Sale can be used to present as evidence in a court of law if your vendor tries to say you never bought the boat but took it without his permission.

OP has already has his original question answered.

If he wishes to purchase a boat he now knows there is a risk.

I have explained that if you  appear to be a gullable idiot handing over cash and never seeing him or the boat again then you are foolish.

Get names, addresses. Photo driving licences, etc etc, then you are very unlikely to get a stolen boat. Use Google.

They will find someone who is a gullable idiot.

 

If you ask them to sign the Bill of Sale, a document designed for purchase of boats, it should cover the needs of the purchaser.

If they refuse to sign, refuse to provide their names and their addresses then you are setting yourself up for fraud.

You can use the back of an envelope, but if all it says is, "boat" £50, then say goodbye to your money.

 

 

Edited Thursday at 12:18 by LadyG

[LadyG]

The people who post on here castigated my suggestions rarely post anything positive, unless its "cut and paste".

I suggest they respond to OP instead.

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

In no any way you can trust just a bill of sale. A bill of sale can be as fraudulent as any other document. If it turned out that the boat had a debt against it the bill of sale would not have any validity apart from providing you with the means to prove the sale was fraudulent and thereby providing proof to satisfy the courts. By seeking confirmation of the vendor's identity and address before agreeing the sale also helps in the case of fraud. You have a better chance of knowing who to sue and where to send the paperwork.  However, even winning in court is likely to be of little value because a fraudster is unlikely to pay up without even more expense on your part.

 

I rather wish that you would stop implying that a bill of sale from the RYA or anywhere else gives much in the way of protection against a fraudulent sale.

I do not think that a small boat will ever have a finance on the boat.

The finance for small boats is on the purchaser. The finance company, or the bank does not want to buy a boat, they want their money back, with interest.

No way will a finance company re possess a boat!

[Tony Brooks]

10 minutes ago, LadyG said:

The people who post on here castigated my suggestions rarely post anything positive, unless its "cut and paste".

I suggest they respond to OP instead.

I do not think that a small boat will ever have a finance on the boat.

The finance for small boats is on the purchaser. The finance company, or the bank does not want to buy a boat, they want their money back, with interest.

No way will a finance company re possess a boat!

 

Please, how do you know a finance company will never re-posses a boat? Source(s) please.

 

How does your view that a bank or finance company does not want to buy a boat but will want their money back prevent the purchaser either not having the boat re-posted or being asked for payment. Source(s) please.

 

I did answer the OP's question. I then pointed out that your advice does not possess the security you imply it does, unless aspects of it is verified. Others have confirmed this view.

 

[alias]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

I do not think that a small boat will ever have a finance on the boat.

 

Marine mortgages were certainly available for narrow boats some years ago. I don't know whether they are still available. 

 

A forum search may reveal examples.

 

Edited Thursday at 13:16 by alias

[LadyG]

3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

In no any way you can trust just a bill of sale. A bill of sale can be as fraudulent as any other document. If it turned out that the boat had a debt against it the bill of sale would not have any validity apart from providing you with the means to prove the sale was fraudulent and thereby providing proof to satisfy the courts. By seeking confirmation of the vendor's identity and address before agreeing the sale also helps in the case of fraud. You have a better chance of knowing who to sue and where to send the paperwork.  However, even winning in court is likely to be of little value because a fraudster is unlikely to pay up without even more expense on your part.

 

I rather wish that you would stop implying that a bill of sale from the RYA or anywhere else gives much in the way of protection against a fraudulent 5

 

I made several, indeed numerous suggestions. I have a paper trail for my boat, from commission to today. There is no doubt i  own this boat. The Bill of Sale has nothing to do with the RYA it is downloadable from their site, among other sites

My Bill of sale has my name on it, plus witnesses.

it is one piece of evidence, it is a receipt designed for use by people buying a specific boat on a specific date.

Banks dont lend against boats, they lend to people. The rare exception would being a business asset, but its very unlikely to come across a fraudulent business asset.

If in doubt take the paperwork, the keys and move the boat., even if only out of the marina.

There are very few problems of this nature. 

Edited Thursday at 14:05 by LadyG

[David Mack]

If you are buying a boat advertised on social media, or from a friend of a friend, or the price looks unusually good, do a reverse image search of the photographs used in the ad, and a Google search of some of the key text. It is not unheard of for fraudsters to copy text and images from genuine sales sites. If you pay such a fraudster you are unlikely to ever see the boat, the 'seller' or your money again.