Starter issues

[nealeST]

After winter storage on a shoreline my JP2 started up first go. A week cruising along the Ashby from the North Oxford and back and no issues although I thought maybe the starter seemed to be slower. Another weekend out 2 weeks ago and things seemed fine. To date a whole month without shoreline and just using the 200w of solar to trickle charge the batteries. Today the engine was sluggish to turn and wouldn’t go. I had the compression levers up to enable it to spin with ease. I couldn’t start it with the handle either 🥴. I borrowed a jump lead and connected the domestic supply over to the starter. What a difference, now full of beans and fired up immediately. So my starter battery is failing. I’ve left the boat deliberately without shoreline power now to see if the solar really is doing nothing for it in my absence and then I’ll know. Can I be sure the solar charges the starter? How can I tell? What sort of wiring should I look for? If it’s unserviceable I guess I should expect it to no longer accept any charge.  I used less than £7 of electricity via the shoreline November to April, so I’m thinking that even with a ready supply of power it wasn’t allowing itself to be conditioned? I don’t think the fault is entirely with the solar as my domestics are fine. I’ll check the state of the battery charge in three weeks when I return. In the meantime I’ve really no idea how to figure out if it is connected to the solar? I don’t want a replacement starter battery to go the same way…

Edited May 2 by nealeST
With

[David Mack]

Starter battery is not necessarily failing, it may just be flat. 

How did you charge the start battery and the domestic bank when on the shoreline?

Is the solar controller connected to the start battery or the domestic bank?

Ditto the alternator?

Assuming a single alternator, what device do you have to have so it charges both batteries when the engine is running, but not otherwise (may be a charge relay, a 1-2-both-off switch or a VSR (voltage sensitive relay)?

[nealeST]

How did you charge the start battery and the domestic bank when on the shoreline?
 I have a battery charger ( a German one, can’t recall the name)  it’s fitted to the wall of the engine room works automatically when connected up to the shoreline.

 

Is the solar controller connected to the start battery or the domestic bank?
 

Now that I don’t know in terms of the starter but definitely to the domestic. I’m trying to figure out if the starter is connected to the solar but not sure what to look for.

 

I think I’ve got a VSR. I only have a single alternator. The VSR (I think) sits in the domestic bank where the majority of wiring is. I have an adverc unit also which I think regulates the alternator?

 

So I’m uncertain as to how exactly the starter battery is charging. It turns the engine but it’s lacking and yes as good as flat. The idea to leave it off the shoreline was to test to see if the solar is an input to it. 

 

 

Edited May 2 by nealeST

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, nealeST said:

Is the solar controller connected to the start battery or the domestic bank?

 

Typically, it is connected to the domestic bank because that should always be very well charged, it only takes a very few Amp hours to start the engine and that is soon replaced once the engine is running. That is unless you have a VSR, which will allow any charge source to charge both banks.

 

4 minutes ago, nealeST said:

How did you charge the start battery and the domestic bank when on the shoreline?

 

It is easy if the charger has two outputs, but if it is only one, then typically only the domestic bank is charged.

 

5 minutes ago, nealeST said:

So I’m uncertain as to how exactly the starter battery is charging. It turns the engine but it’s lacking and yes as good as flat. The idea to leave it of. The shoreline was to test to see if the solar is an input to it. 

 

Remember that lead acid batteries will, in time, develop internal shorts as well as losing their capacity. They will also lose up to about 8% of charge a month if left uncharged - far more when they start internal shorting.

 

Your VSR MIGHT be a simple split charge relay unless it is marked as a VSR, maybe post a photo.

 

[nealeST]

From memory I think there’s only one output from the charger.

 

seems likely there is no solar going into the starter and only to the domestic as you point out Tony.

 

it seems on the face of it my starter was left without a float charge all winter and I was just lucky a month ago. The weeks cruise might have just been sufficient at 7 hours a day with an ailing battery. After a few short trips out…really just so I could service the engine and change engine and gearbox oil I’ve not had sufficient charge from the alternator going back in.
 

I’ll search for a photo, I’ve missed my chance to take one now but I might have one already! 
 

thanks!

as ever as steep learning curve of finding out the hard way how my boat actually works.

[Tony Brooks]

20 minutes ago, nealeST said:

as steep learning curve of finding out the hard way how my boat actually works.

 

Especially as no two boats ever seem to be the same.

[wakey_wake]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

1 hour ago, nealeST said:

How did you charge the start battery and the domestic bank when on the shoreline?

It is easy if the charger has two outputs, but if it is only one, then typically only the domestic bank is charged.

When I had a shoreline, I also had one domestic LA bank charge and a VSR. When the voltage either side reached about 13V then it joined the banks.

 

Below I'm talking about voltages and being aware of currents; but I see no mention of this in your posts, so I have to ask whether you have a DMM or a current clamp meter? Without at least one, you're flying blind.

 

Now I have LFP domestic and new-ish LA starter (Yuasa brand). I've seen the starter hold its voltage steady at 12.8V for months while removed from the system so I haven't provided it with charging yet, but my plan is this -

 

The domestics need all the solar I can find, at least when I'm there.

The starter only needs a tiny float now and then to keep it healthy. If it needs more I have a battery join switch but these should be used with care - extreme opposites of charge may cause unwise currents.

 

Therefore I will use one small MPPT off whichever PV is convenient to maintain the starter, the same as I do sometimes with the car, but the remaining output of that PV will go into the domestics.

I like this one https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0CWR5JR99 check other vendors for a sensible price and be aware that it needs a reverse blocking diode to be added. Two choices, trade-offs to be made, and possibly some soldering.

 

ETA: let me know if a scribbly diagram would help clarify

 

I also have a small (1A output) mains charger kicking around, which I might press into service. Be aware that some of these will slowly but steadily discharge the battery if connected without external power.

 

49 minutes ago, nealeST said:

seems likely there is no solar going into the starter and only to the domestic as you point out Tony.

 

Degrading the starter is a hard way to find that out. 😞

Edited May 2 by wakey_wake
ETA

[nealeST]

I found my photo of the split charger. 
 

 

ETA: let me know if a scribbly diagram would help clarify

 

thanks for the reply. I’m out my depth but interesting, it’s possible I’d already figured out the starter wasn’t connected to the solar and then managed to completely forget that figuring out. I need to write every down …

 

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, nealeST said:

eems likely there is no solar going into the starter and only to the domestic as you point out Tony.

 

Actually I have a VSR on our boat, so both banks charged from solar. It all worked well until one day when I tried to start it would hardy turn over. I left it a couple of hours, and it started, seemingly as normal. Repeat the next day, so check on the voltmeter showed a virtually flat battery and only the solar voltage allowed it to start. The battery had developed an internal short so overnight it discharged. The start battery was 10 years old plus.

 

It just shows how little total battery capacity starting takes.

1 minute ago, nealeST said:

I found my photo of the split charger. 
 

 

 

ETA: let me know if a scribbly diagram would help clarify

 

thanks for the reply. I’m out my depth but interesting, it’s possible I’d already figured out the starter wasn’t connected to the solar and then managed to completely forget that figuring out. I need to write every down …

 

 

 

One alternator plus that VSR tells me that the starter battery will be connected to the charger and solar while hey are charging, so I suspect a worn out start battery, shorting internally and not holding much charge.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, wakey_wake said:

Below I'm talking about voltages and being aware of currents; but I see no mention of this in your posts, so I have to ask whether you have a DMM or a current clamp meter? Without at least one, you're flying blind.

 

At last! Someone suggesting a clamp meter. Even with a DMM the OP will still be flying half blind. But a  clamp meter to measure current AND voltage will pin down the problem immediately. 

 

 

[nealeST]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

so I suspect a worn out start battery, shorting internally and not holding much charge.

Thanks Tony! 
 

clamp meter…I’m googling that now!

 

[BEngo]

Make sure you get a DC clamp meter.  Many are AC only, and, on a boat, best kept with the chocolate teapots.

[wakey_wake]

2 hours ago, MtB said:

At last! Someone suggesting a clamp meter. Even with a DMM the OP will still be flying half blind. But a  clamp meter to measure current AND voltage will pin down the problem immediately. 

😉

It is possible to measure the flow of a few amps by looking at the millivolts dropped across a fat cable, but it's a desperate trick and hard to calibrate. Not recommended for anyone.

 

1 hour ago, nealeST said:

clamp meter…I’m googling that now!

I recommend the Uni-T UT201E (~£44 2023). It only goes up to 100A but beyond that, well you know something is pretty busy.

What I like is that it can see a few milliamps. Maybe not with great accuracy, but often enough to diagnose things which otherwise would require breaking into the circuit.

Also it has an electric field sensor, so you can detect presence of mains voltage in a cable through the insulation. Not to be relied on for safety! but handy for the game of "which bollard still has power?" which some marinas have you play.

 

It doesn't do everything else a DMM can - it has no current shunt - and it does other stuff you don't need so there may be cheaper ones. If you post links we could triage them.

 

What may not be obvious: these things are measuring the magnetic field generated by the current.

 

Perhaps more detail than you need -

In AC mode it is self-centering because the field is always changing, so the meter measures right away. It's a bit like a transformer. The only inaccuracies to anticipate are if the current is not a pure sine wave, or is not in phase with the voltage - then you're back in the dark until you get an oscilloscope.

For DC current the field is static, and therefore measured with a Hall effect sensor , and you need to tell it what component of magnetic field is from the current and what was just "around", so there's a button to "zero" the current. Hold the meter near the wire but not around it; zero the display; then place the jaws around the wire.

 

You can also put two wires in the jaws, assuming they fit. Then you're looking at the difference in current; or the sum, if you flip one over.

 

3 hours ago, nealeST said:

thanks for the reply. I’m out my depth but interesting, it’s possible I’d already figured out the starter wasn’t connected to the solar and then managed to completely forget that figuring out. I need to write every down …

For me the first question is whether you want to get out or start learning to swim. 😁

 

A theory: the VSR actually works fine, but you had insufficient sunshine (over domestic usage) to ever trigger it to close. This led to the starter getting insufficient charge; then whether it has been damaged as a result is something you'll discover by trying to keep it charged.

 

6 hours ago, nealeST said:

a whole month without shoreline and just using the 200w of solar to trickle charge the batteries.

As in one 200W panel? Does not mean you're getting 200W of power off it. Does the PV controller tell you what you're getting? And do you trust it?

 

Are you aware of the VSR stout "clonk" and probably a red LED coming on, when it engages? Often they're placed down where a head does not visit.

 

A way to test the theory: apply sufficient charging power from somewhere to get the domestics up to 13.8V (check with the DMM you'll have) and see if you get the clonk, the LED and a rise in the voltage on the starter. Total voltage may go down (due to the starter taking charge) but hopefully not enough for the VSR to drop out.

 

3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

so I suspect a worn out start battery, shorting internally and not holding much charge.

 

Considering the WP: Five whys then yes that seems a likely step, but you also want to figure out how it happened.

How much of the history of the battery do you know?

 

6 hours ago, nealeST said:

A week cruising along the Ashby from the North Oxford and back and no issues although I thought maybe the starter seemed to be slower.

 

This suggests also an alternator problem. If the starter droops over a week of cruising, it's either giving its last or it isn't getting any charge.

 

Again, a current clamp will tell you what current the alternator is putting out. A DMM might tell you it had raised the starter to 13.8V.

The two together are best: if the starter was at 12.2V and you start the engine with it, and then it jumps to 13.8V without at least... say at least 10A for at least 30seconds, then the battery has lost capacity. This is a clear symptom of a dead starter - it appears to go from discharged to charged rather quickly, without putting much energy back in.

 

 

3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

It just shows how little total battery capacity starting takes.

Anecdatum from a dying car battery: it was a ~60Ah starter on a small petrol engine, which had several calls for jump starting on short journeys. I left it on that 1A auto-charger overnight, which claimed it had finished - green LED, no further info.

Then in the time it took me to disconnect it and replace with the DMM (two shrouded 4mm banana plugs ~ 3 seconds) it had dropped to 11V.

It still managed to turn the engine over once, and this explains how previous trips had succeeded when the engine was already hot.

 

[MtB]

11 hours ago, BEngo said:

Make sure you get a DC clamp meter.  Many are AC only, and, on a boat, best kept with the chocolate teapots.

 

Good point, and listings often try to obfuscate on the point, implying they measure DC when they don't. If weasel words are used and you find yourself not sure if it measures DC or not, it probably doesn't.

 

Also, one can often tell by the price. DC ones are expensive!

[Peanut]

Some clamp meters also have a separate dmm included. They will say ac and dc current, but that only applies to the dmm function not the clamp meter. Another way to bambooze the unwary.

[cuthound]

12 hours ago, wakey_wake said:

😉

It is possible to measure the flow of a few amps by looking at the millivolts dropped across a fat cable, but it's a desperate trick and hard to calibrate. Not recommended for anyone.

 

Most DMM's can measure up to 10 amps when connected in series with the circuit you are measuring, which is a far simpler method than measuring the millivolt drop and trying to calculate the current 

 

Your recommendation of the Uni-T UT201E is good though.

Edited May 3 by cuthound
To remove a full stop masquerading as a space.

[wakey_wake]

TL;DR the UT201E by itself is enough to serve as current clamp + DMM. To start with DMM only, no need to go over a tenner but be careful which one.

 

2 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Most DMM's can measure up to 10 amps when connected in series with the circuit you are measuring, which is a far simpler method than measuring the millivolt drop and trying to calculate the current 

2 hours ago, Peanut said:

Some clamp meters also have a separate dmm included. They will say ac and dc current, but that only applies to the dmm function not the clamp meter. Another way to bambooze the unwary.

 

I suspect we are in one of the many possible confusion zones. Both the current clamp meters I have, have some DMM functionality but no current shunt (in-series measurement of current). Both will measure voltage, but not at the same time as current and with less precision than my similarly priced DMM.

 

This is why I specifically mention DMMs having a current shunt. It's a calibrated thick wire inside, usually good to 10A for a few seconds only, across which the voltage drop is measured. Using a shunt, whether 10A or the milliamp range, requires breaking into the circuit but it's always more accurate than watching magnetic fields.

 

Amazon has a bewildering array of these things, many with shiny features a boater will never use, and I suspect many are overpriced junk.

 

There is something to be said for going to a well known electronics supplier for something like https://www.rapidonline.com/brilliant-tools-bt122900-multimeter-digital-compact-reliable-auto-off-08-6575 which will be perfectly adequate - although I wouldn't look at it twice if I had only seen it on Amazon. It's just unfortunate for Rapid that it's perfectly rational to use their product filtering service and then buy elsewhere without having to pay their P&P. 😞

 

2 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Your recommendation of the Uni-T UT201E is good though.

An excellent birthday present. 😁

and more than adequate in the role of "DMM for a boater".

 

One word of warning about these cheaper brands of meter though: they don't have the protections that a genuine Fluke meter has. If you're going over 50V (AC or DC) then you should get educated about arc hazards, shock hazards, what Cat III means and why the probes have those plastic peephole caps on the ends.

[cuthound]

37 minutes ago, wakey_wake said:

 

I suspect we are in one of the many possible confusion zones. Both the current clamp meters I have, have some DMM functionality but no current shunt (in-series measurement of current). Both will measure voltage, but not at the same time as current and with less precision than my similarly priced DMM.

 

This is why I specifically mention DMMs having a current shunt. It's a calibrated thick wire inside, usually good to 10A for a few seconds only, across which the voltage drop is measured. Using a shunt, whether 10A or the milliamp range, requires breaking into the circuit but it's always more accurate than watching magnetic fields.

 

One word of warning about these cheaper brands of meter though: they don't have the protections that a genuine Fluke meter has. If you're going over 50V (AC or DC) then you should get educated about arc hazards, shock hazards, what Cat III means and why the probes have those plastic peephole caps on the ends.

 

I have yet to see a clamp meter which also has an internal current shunt.

 

You are correct that shunt based current readings are far more accurate than Hall Effect clamp meters, but less versatile. For most fault finding on a narrow boat accuracy is required for voltage readings, but not for current readings.

 

You are right that quality meter leads are better, but Cat III leads are rated to 1000 volts (Cat II are rated to 600 volts) and both are adequate for working on both AC and DC systems found on a conventional narrow boat.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

Most DMM's can measure up to 10 amps when connected in series with the circuit you are measuring, which is a far simpler method than measuring the millivolt drop and trying to calculate the current 

 

Your recommendation of the Uni-T UT201E is good though.

 

I'm inclined to disagree. I've bought perhaps ten Uni-T clamp meters over the years and two of them were the Uni-T UT201E. Of the ten only two have failed. Guess which two! 

 

 

 

[cuthound]

3 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I'm inclined to disagree. I've bought perhaps ten Uni-T clamp meters over the years and two of them were the Uni-T UT201E. Of the ten only two have failed. Guess which two! 

 

 

 

 

Perhaps they have been "value engineered" in recent times?

 

I bought my Uni-T DC  clamp meter 10 years ago and it still performs perfectly.

[MtB]

Just now, cuthound said:

 

Perhaps they have been "value engineered" in recent times?

 

I bought my Uni-T DC  clamp meter 10 years ago and it still performs perfectly.

 

I have a nasty habit of leaving them hanging on the supply cable inside electric boilers. Then when the boiler packs up again five years later and the old customer calls me back to fix it again, I find it still there with flat batteries! New batteries and it still works, except if its the UT201E. 

 

The more durable one I'd recommend is the Uni-T UT203. 

 

[cuthound]

51 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I have a nasty habit of leaving them hanging on the supply cable inside electric boilers. Then when the boiler packs up again five years later and the old customer calls me back to fix it again, I find it still there with flat batteries! New batteries and it still works, except if its the UT201E. 

 

The more durable one I'd recommend is the Uni-T UT203. 

 

 

I'll have to check what model mine is. I can't remember, but I bought it about 10 years ago. I haven't used it for about a year, but I know where it is on my boat.

Edited May 3 by cuthound
To remove a full stop masquerading as a space.

[wakey_wake]

4 hours ago, cuthound said:

You are right that quality meter leads are better, but Cat III leads are rated to 1000 volts (Cat II are rated to 600 volts) and both are adequate for working on both AC and DC systems found on a conventional narrow boat.

On the one hand I don't want pointless digressions from "what does a boater need?" but on the other hand it is dangerous to have a meter that says it will measure up to 600V or 1000V, and not be aware that for certain purposes there are more expensive devices which have invisible safety advantages. Simplest is to say don't use these cheaper meters on the big stuff, and that can include long strings of PV.

 

Two lines of evidence here are

my younger self, who while diagnosing some weird house light switch behaviour managed to short live & neutral with the meter probes. Fuse blown in the consumer unit, trousers remained clean, some loss of respect from the friend I was helping out. 😅

the gruesome photo on p.28 of a safety presentation by Fluke, caused by circumstances no DIYer should ever be poking into.

 

 

4 hours ago, MtB said:

The more durable one I'd recommend is the Uni-T UT203. 

I'll bow to your greater experience here, and kindly request that you don't retrain as a surgeon.

 

What's confusing is the UT203 now seems to come in flavours of UT203+ and UT203R, between which I can find no difference except price.

 

My UT-201E was bought 2023 and has led a nice quiet life.

[nealeST]

Astonishing detail. It’s another world. I’m picking through these posts and will return many times. If I can pick up a small percentage of this info I’ll be considerably better informed! When I get back to the boat in late May I’ll try to come back with answers to the questions raised here. In the meantime I’m at least happy I managed to borrow a jump lead and get the thing going!

[1st ade]

8 hours ago, nealeST said:

Astonishing detail. It’s another world. I’m picking through these posts and will return many times. If I can pick up a small percentage of this info I’ll be considerably better informed! When I get back to the boat in late May I’ll try to come back with answers to the questions raised here. In the meantime I’m at least happy I managed to borrow a jump lead and get the thing going!

Agreed - and thanks for the link by @wakey_wake to Fluke - Fascinating (and slightly scary...)