An unaswerable question...

[1st ade]

Bear with me, I'm aware that many of you are going to reply "Ask CRT" and I will, but not yet...

 

You'll all know that @magpie patrick passed away two months ago today. Amongst the problems he left his Executors (of who I'm one) was his boat, moored on the K&A. Its BSC is in date, and been confirmed it can be passed on to new owners (it's the boat that was tested, not the owner!). Its insurance is in date, and I'm confirming with the company that it's the boat that's covered, not the owner. His mooring is covered, and they are aware of the situation.

 

What about his CRT boat licence? The boat can't be Magpies (as he's deceased) but it's not mine (as probate has to be sorted). And I believe that you can't transfer unused time from one licence to another? And I don't want to stir up a can of worms with CRT (yet, although I will if I have to)

 

Thoughts?

[Lady M]

I think you will have to ask CRT.   It may be that, as executor, they will allow you to renew the licence.  

 

Presumably a similar problem would exist if he owned a car.

[Chris Lowe]

Is this any help Ade?

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/support-us/leave-a-gift-in-your-will/information-for-executors

[tree monkey]

5 minutes ago, 1st ade said:

Bear with me, I'm aware that many of you are going to reply "Ask CRT" and I will, but not yet...

 

You'll all know that @magpie patrick passed away two months ago today. Amongst the problems he left his Executors (of who I'm one) was his boat, moored on the K&A. Its BSC is in date, and been confirmed it can be passed on to new owners (it's the boat that was tested, not the owner!). Its insurance is in date, and I'm confirming with the company that it's the boat that's covered, not the owner. His mooring is covered, and they are aware of the situation.

 

What about his CRT boat licence? The boat can't be Magpies (as he's deceased) but it's not mine (as probate has to be sorted). And I believe that you can't transfer unused time from one licence to another? And I don't want to stir up a can of worms with CRT (yet, although I will if I have to)

 

Thoughts?

 

It's probably best to phone CRT and explain, it's likely that they will have some procedures in place for the issues with probate, although you might have to be a bit persistent to get to the right person, as its unlikelythe have a dedicated bereavement service.

 

I found most companies understood the issues involved.

 

Its a difficult time and you have my sympathies, there seems to be a never ending stream of stuff to do after a death

Edited April 21 by tree monkey

[1st ade]

8 minutes ago, Lady M said:

a similar problem would exist if he owned a car.

Believe me, I've been through that one (although not with Magpie) - "We are sorry for your loss; by the way is the vehicle on the highway? Well either shift it or tax it then!!!"

12 minutes ago, Chris Lowe said:

Is this any help Ade?

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/support-us/leave-a-gift-in-your-will/information-for-executors

Not a lot I'm afraid - there is nothing about probate and a (floating) boat...

[Chris Lowe]

4 minutes ago, 1st ade said:

Not a lot I'm afraid - there is nothing about probate and a (floating) boat...

The email addresses and phone numbers may be a starting point.

[Momac]

You seem to have insurance in hand.

I suggest you do not necessarily need to inform C&RT about anything until probate is received or until the license needs to be renewed .

 

 

 

 

[Cheese]

43 minutes ago, 1st ade said:

...

What about his CRT boat licence? The boat can't be Magpies (as he's deceased) but it's not mine (as probate has to be sorted). And I believe that you can't transfer unused time from one licence to another? ...

The boat currently "belongs" to his estate, so more Magpie than anyone else.

 

With houses I think councils usually stop collecting council tax when a sole occupant dies.  I would be suprised if C&RT don't have a similar policy.

[Arthur Marshall]

Surely it's the boat that is licenced, not the owner. So the boat remains licenced for its original duration. I would have thought that the executor would then draw on the estate funds to relicence, same as I believe you can do to pay any outstanding bills or taxes. Ownership would remain with the estate.

With our demographic, CRT must be used to this.

[Bacchus]

As above, the boat belongs to the estate of Magpie Patrick. I had to deal with this for my late mother recently - council tax give you twelve months leeway, insurance give you eff-all (actually put the premium up for being an empty house). The boat is still licenced to the owner even though he is deceased until it changes ownership (which is not until the grant of probate), so should be okay on C&RT waters, but you will have to clarify that with them.

[1st ade]

3 minutes ago, Bacchus said:

insurance give you eff-all (actually put the premium up for being an empty house)

Been there - got the T Shirt...

 

4 minutes ago, Bacchus said:

but you will have to clarify that with them.

The consensus seems to be "ring them" - thanks all.

[wakey_wake]

Many questions, but hopefully some of them will help you even if you're not giving us the answers. 😉

 

1 hour ago, 1st ade said:

moored on the K&A.

Offline? Then I think the currency of licence is irrelevant until it goes online.

 

Licence paid annually? CaRT may know nothing about it, until you are in a position to tell them.

 

Licence paid by direct debit? The bank may continue to pay if, if there are funds and you have not yet told them what's going on; which is sometimes advised, at least by non-lawyers IME, in the interim before proving probate.

 

Or are you trying to reclaim unused time? That would seem to come after a sale?

 

1 hour ago, 1st ade said:

Its insurance is in date, and I'm confirming with the company that it's the boat that's covered, not the owner. His mooring is covered, and they are aware of the situation.

I've seen house insurance cancel itself (possibly a coincidence of timing) and then be prohibitively expensive to insure in the name of the estate. Is it possible and economical to insure it personally, without owning it?

 

Until you have probate, things can be difficult. 😞

[David Mack]

I don't think Executors take any personal liability for obligations of the deceased, although they are custodians of the deceased's assets until those have been distributed (in accordance with the will or the rules of intestacy). So if the CRT licence expires before the boat is sold or transferred to a beneficiary, it should be fine for a executor, as representative of the deceased's estate, to renew the licence. And for practical reasons change the licence holder's contact details.

29 minutes ago, Bacchus said:

I had to deal with this for my late mother recently - council tax give you twelve months leeway,

In the case of my mother, no Council Tax from the date of death until 6 months after the date of probate, then full CT (without single person discount) for another six months. Then double the full CT rate for unoccupied property!

[Bacchus]

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

full CT (without single person discount) for another six months. Then double the full CT rate for unoccupied property

 

Ouch. Bastards. 

I suppose they need to get their money from somewhere. Huge pension-funds don't just create themselves.

[jonathanA]

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

In the case of my mother, no Council Tax from the date of death until 6 months after the date of probate, then full CT (without single person discount) for another six months. Then double the full CT rate for unoccupied property!

I don't know if it would work with residential property but for some commerical property that i had some dealings with a year or two ago, we 'let' a vacant shop to a charity for storage and didn't have to pay business rates on it, whilst we found a new tenant. if we'd left it empty we would have had to cough up after 6 months ( i think it was 6 months).  i know it did take a while to get a new tenant in complicated by needing to apply for a change of use to takeaway food for the new tenant.

[Gybe Ho]

4 hours ago, 1st ade said:

 

Thoughts?

 

 

When I had to deal with a complex probate I was surprised to discover that the deceased person continues to exist as a party to legal contracts, for example a shorthold tenancy needs to be paid monthly and consumer credit obligations remain as liabilities against the estate. I guess this means you have the authority as executor but not the personal obligation to renew the CRT annual license when needed.

 

3 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Surely it's the boat that is licenced, not the owner.

 

 

Nope the licence agreement is between the owner and the CRT, the agreement just happens to mention operation of a named boat. A narrowboat cannot be in breach of minimum CC movement requirements, in the eyes of the CRT that is the fault of the owner for failing to move the boat.

Edited April 21 by Gybe Ho

[Ken X]

12 hours ago, wakey_wake said:

I've seen house insurance cancel itself (possibly a coincidence of timing) and then be prohibitively expensive to insure in the name of the estate. Is it possible and economical to insure it personally, without owning it?

 

Until you have probate, things can be difficult. 😞

We had similar, when my parents died the car insurance and house insurance expired when they did.  The car was quickly removed to private ground and the house was already insured by us as part of a Power of Attorney so easily sorted.  AIUI most, if not all, insurances die when the insurance policy holder dies and need reinsuring. 

[Mike Todd]

15 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Surely it's the boat that is licenced, not the owner. So the boat remains licenced for its original duration. I would have thought that the executor would then draw on the estate funds to relicence, same as I believe you can do to pay any outstanding bills or taxes. Ownership would remain with the estate.

With our demographic, CRT must be used to this.

It may be that it is the boat that is licenced but the T&Cs now, sadly, make it clear that the ownership of that licence is personal to the individual named in the application. Specifically, it does not outlast a change of ownership. Clearly at some point a new licence will be needed. 

 

However, I would be remarkably surprised if CaRT do not have a sensible approach in such circumstances. From a probate POV it would the same as for any other costs arising from any other asset in the estate. But note that probate granting is now much lengthier than it used to be for simple and uncontested cases. It may well be sensible to keep CaRT posted on progress, assuming that do have a transition process, otherwise they may get a bit concerned when they do not hear from you for over 6 months.

 

Also, until probate is granted, there may well be a problem in the estate paying for the licence and you cannot apply in a new name until grant is given and ownership can change. Since the licence was not due at the time of death it may well not be considered and existing debt. (A good lawyer needed?!) I would have anticipated that it was considered a cost of disposing of the assets in accordance with the will and will not arise until that change of ownership occurs.

[1st ade]

29 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Specifically, it does not outlast a change of ownership.

But when, (I'll ring them later) does the change of ownership occur? For DVLA it's when they are notified of the death.

31 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

But note that probate granting is now much lengthier than it used to be for simple and uncontested cases.

Tell me about it!!

 

33 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

However, I would be remarkably surprised if CaRT do not have a sensible approach in such circumstances.

As above, I'll ring them. And risk being told that a boat 130 miles away has no licence with immediate effect...

[Alan de Enfield]

59 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

But note that probate granting is now much lengthier than it used to be for simple and uncontested cases.

 

As an example, it is almost 3 years since my Father died, I was his executor, and, it has been a long drawn out process, with the last of his assets (transfer of land ownership) only finally being concluded this week.

[Ken X]

Probate challenges can go on for many years.

 

The present Mrs X was an Executor for her mum back in 2013.  She sorted Probate with her sister, paid all IHT due and the file was closed within a year, job done.

 

Or so we thought.  Late last year, thirteen years after the death, she received three letters from NatWest stating that in 2010-2012 they had given poor financial advice to the late mum.  In compensation they had now agreed payment of three lump sums to the estate.  The monies duly arrived this spring and we contacted HMRC re. IHT.  They sent us a tax bill and, amusingly, added on thirteen years interest for late payment.

 

Mrs X has invited NatWest to settle the interest bill as it was caused by their late payment of the funds.  The fun just never ends. 😀

[Cheese]

7 hours ago, 1st ade said:

 

 

7 hours ago, 1st ade said:

...And risk being told that a boat 130 miles away has no licence with immediate effect...

I think that extremely unlikely. They can't issue a licence to anyone else at the moment.  So that would be tantamount to admitting that there are boats on the system which are unlicencable, possibly for significant periods. And I really can't see them wanting to go down that route!

[TunnelTiger]

7 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

....Also, until probate is granted, there may well be a problem in the estate paying for the licence and you cannot apply in a new name until grant is given and ownership can change....

 

I don't think there's a problem. Executors can pay expenses out of the estate. The licence is a requirement, so it must be a legitimate expense. 

[1st ade]

1 hour ago, Cheese said:

I think that extremely unlikely. They can't issue a licence to anyone else at the moment.

It's what happened with DVLA - and, no, you can't pretend they misheard the index number, it's untaxed from the moment you notify them "Now either tax it or get it off the highway"

[David Mack]

12 minutes ago, 1st ade said:

It's what happened with DVLA - and, no, you can't pretend they misheard the index number, it's untaxed from the moment you notify them "Now either tax it or get it off the highway"

But is there any issue with you, as executor, taxing the car in your name? Or SORNing it if it is off road?