Who’s the idiot.

[pete23]

Are C&RT becoming more lenient towards constant cruisers that don’t really cruise??
There are five of the typical CCs that used to do local bridge hoping that haven’t moved from the same spot for about six weeks.
The only time they move of “their” mooring is to fill up with water that’s about five hundred yards away.
I just wondered if I’m the idiot for paying for my mooring and thinking do I really need a mooring anymore.
Discuss. 

[Arthur Marshall]

It's always been hit and miss. Whether you join them or not rather depends on whether you want the constant niggle that you might be the unlucky one that loses their boat. And, of course, being thought of as a pillock by everyone else.

Tricky one....

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Arthur Marshall said:

It's always been hit and miss. Whether you join them or not rather depends on whether you want the constant niggle that you might be the unlucky one that loses their boat. And, of course, being thought of as a pillock by everyone else.

Tricky one....

 

 

To lose your boat is quite difficult I suspect. 

 

Unless you fail to notice about 7 tickets attached to your tiller, 100 or so emails and ten or so snail-mail letters sent to your registration address. 

 

All spread over about five years.

 

 

[dogless]

I've always rejoiced that I can afford to moor my boat where I choose , and try not to concern myself with other's choices which may be dictated by ill-health or poor finances.

 

But if the situation is bugging you (and I can see why it might) why not contact CRT local licensing/enforcement (or whatever title they currently boast) and have a chat ... they may help you better understand what's happening.

 

Rog

[Arthur Marshall]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

 

To lose your boat is quite difficult I suspect. 

 

Unless you fail to notice about 7 tickets attached to your tiller, 100 or so emails and ten or so snail-mail letters sent to your registration address. 

 

All spread over about five years.

 

 

True, but you still have to have the right attitude not to give a toss. I suspect if you're used to having a legal mooring you'd have to acquire it. Personally, I've always found it easier, simpler and less hassle generally to keep within the law or rules as far as possible. If you can't, obviously, fair enough - usually due to financial reasons beyond one's control or, on rare occasions, principle, but I doubt the latter explains many of those not working to CRTs T&Cs.

[Stroudwater1]

I’ve seen a few boats continuously crawling recently with yellow “CRT aware” bits next to their licences. Same size as the license and appears to be CRT issue. Wonder if this means they are so disabled they can’t move far?

 

[alias]

7 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

I’ve seen a few boats continuously crawling recently with yellow “CRT aware” bits next to their licences. Same size as the license and appears to be CRT issue. Wonder if this means they are so disabled they can’t move far?

 

 

"A ‘Canal & River Trust Aware’ window disability badge (pictured) will be sent to all boaters with an ‘agreed equality adjustment’ – which usually means an agreement with CRT that the requirements to move (to conform with CRT’s interpretation of the legal requirement for boats without a home mooring to cruise) have been relaxed to a certain extent on grounds of disability. It is entirely up to the boater whether they wish to display the badge, but if they do it can reduce the likelihood of being wrongly thought to be overstaying."

 

https://www.iims.org.uk/disability-badge-scheme-for-boaters-developed-by-crt/

[blackrose]

55 minutes ago, pete23 said:

Are C&RT becoming more lenient towards constant cruisers that don’t really cruise??
There are five of the typical CCs that used to do local bridge hoping that haven’t moved from the same spot for about six weeks.
The only time they move of “their” mooring is to fill up with water that’s about five hundred yards away.
I just wondered if I’m the idiot for paying for my mooring and thinking do I really need a mooring anymore.
Discuss. 

 

Why worry about what others are doing unless they're obstructing you, being a nuisance or stealing, etc.

 

You have a mooring and they don't and can be moved on at any time. If you want to save some money and that's the sort of lifestyle you want then go for it.

[Rob-M]

18 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

I’ve seen a few boats continuously crawling recently with yellow “CRT aware” bits next to their licences. Same size as the license and appears to be CRT issue. Wonder if this means they are so disabled they can’t move far?

 

One that has been at Kings Bromley for about 5 years in the same spot has his yellow badge, must check the expiry date next time I'm passing.

[wakey_wake]

(saw the topic in VNC and had to check it wasn't me yet)

 

48 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

And, of course, being thought of as a pillock by everyone else.

Tricky one....

There are so many ways to be a pillock though!

 

How about recruiting some like-minded mates from the marina, and next time these boats wander off to top up the water... you grab their space and hog it. 🐷
All in a long line, so they have to go somewhere else. Satisfaction!

 

Hmm well I wouldn't do that myself and I wouldn't think it funny if it moved past the gedankenexperiment. Sometimes one only needs to imagine what it would be like if the pendulum did swing over the other way, to adjust perspective of the middle ground.

[gatekrash]

23 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

I’ve seen a few boats continuously crawling recently with yellow “CRT aware” bits next to their licences. Same size as the license and appears to be CRT issue. Wonder if this means they are so disabled they can’t move far?

 

We've seen absolutely loads of these on our recent cruise, I hadn't really noticed them before now but we were crawling through one of the (rammed) VMs up the Macc and saw quite a few which made us Google it.  Doesn't massively affect us as we tend to stop in less popular places and don't mind walking to shops anyways.

[wakey_wake]

1 hour ago, blackrose said:

Why worry about what others are doing unless they're obstructing you, being a nuisance or stealing, etc.

 

A literal answer to your rhetorical question: what worries me is what society is doing to people.

 

1 hour ago, alias said:

"A ‘Canal & River Trust Aware’ window disability badge [..for..] an ‘agreed equality adjustment’ – which usually means [...] relaxed to a certain extent on grounds of disability. It is entirely up to the boater whether they wish to display the badge, but if they do it can reduce the likelihood of being wrongly thought to be overstaying."

 

So it is growing into a yellow "blue badge"? Maybe we can start calling them that, to assist with confusion.

 

Making adjustments for people who "want to but are struggling" is a wonderful thing that I see as an improvement across the last ~80 years.

Giving people an incentive to fraudulently claim to be disabled, claim to be more slightly disabled than they are even on a bad day, think of themselves as disabled, or actually become disabled is the ugly other side of that coin.

Making life progressively harder for those who are fully able, by sucking out resources at every turn, so that it starts to look quite a lot easier to not be able.

I'm afraid it can be a progression.

 

I've seen the inspiring TEDx-like vids of people with real serious 'disabilities' doing amazing things. They choose 'upwards'.

Conversely, and what bothers me about handing out medals to those apparently in need, is that society makes an incentive for those who 'could if they wanted to' to aim 'downwards'.

 

(There is no evidence in the thread so far that these effects are relevant on these particular boats, but I have seen enough in wider society.)

[jonathanA]

1 hour ago, dogless said:

But if the situation is bugging you (and I can see why it might) why not contact CRT local licensing/enforcement (or whatever title they currently boast) and have a chat ... they may help you better understand what's happening.

Yes agree. Had reason to contact my local mooring manager last year as I was 'concerned' that some over stayers may be seen as being on my mooring.  I'd tried looking up "enforcement" but the local enforcement officer details were out of date and his line manager cba to respond. 

 

Fortunately the mooring manager was interested and and asked me for boat details. I was assured of confidentiality and whilst they wouldn't tell me what action they took I was assured they were 'monitoring the situation' and sure enough wasn't long before the over stayers moved. 

 

So long way of saying it is worth engaging with crt although they don't make it easy....

[cuthound]

3 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

To lose your boat is quite difficult I suspect. 

 

Unless you fail to notice about 7 tickets attached to your tiller, 100 or so emails and ten or so snail-mail letters sent to your registration address. 

 

All spread over about five years.

 

 

 

Welcome back Mike!

[plato]

There’s more and more boats with these stickers. 
They’re called window lickers licences round here. 
I know of boats who are gaming the system. 
Playing the mental health card is a winner. 
I believe they’re reviewed annually. 
The dispensation you get varies according to personal circumstances.

My belief is they’re giving them enough rope to hang themselves. 
When they implement the recommendations of the commission report. Past sitings may give Crt ammunition to crack down on persistent over staying. 
I full appreciate that there are genuine cases that need support. 
But there are those definitely using it to stay to their heart’s content. 

[agg221]

My understanding is that there is a NBTA connection to this.

 

Stage 1, work with CRT to define 'adjustments' (which apparently go as far as not requiring some boats to move at all).

Stage 2, get as many people as possible to be categorized as needing adjustments.

 

This comes on pretty good authority.

 

Friends of ours are partially sighted. He can see well enough to steer a boat but not pass a driving test for specific reasons of the particular nature of his sight condition; she cannot see the ground clearly from the boat. This means they absolutely need to use lock landings with the boat stopped to safely get on and off. The occupation of lock landings is therefore actively discriminating against partially sighted boaters - a potential issue to be addressed at some point.

 

Alec

[Mike Todd]

5 hours ago, Stroudwater1 said:

I’ve seen a few boats continuously crawling recently with yellow “CRT aware” bits next to their licences. Same size as the license and appears to be CRT issue. Wonder if this means they are so disabled they can’t move far?

 

It will mean that they have an equality adjustment plan agreed with CRT. This is not a matter of choice for CRT it is the law for every service provider

2 minutes ago, agg221 said:

My understanding is that there is a NBTA connection to this.

 

Stage 1, work with CRT to define 'adjustments' (which apparently go as far as not requiring some boats to move at all).

Stage 2, get as many people as possible to be categorized as needing adjustments.

 

This comes on pretty good authority.

 

Friends of ours are partially sighted. He can see well enough to steer a boat but not pass a driving test for specific reasons of the particular nature of his sight condition; she cannot see the ground clearly from the boat. This means they absolutely need to use lock landings with the boat stopped to safely get on and off. The occupation of lock landings is therefore actively discriminating against partially sighted boaters - a potential issue to be addressed at some point.

 

Alec

I have not encountered an Equality Adjustment that does not involve some movement. Indeed, if a boater claims to be unable to move long term (as distinct from some short term condition such a fractured leg) I understand that the policy is to engage with various welfare service to facilitate a move off the boat to somewhere suitable. If you know directly of a case to the contrary I'd be interested to know more - privately of appropriate.

 

There are, however, some similarities to the migrant status cases being discussed on BBC today.

 

It is also worth remembering that every case submitted to CRT will cost a non-trivial part of the budget. Also, note that two years ago there was a substantial backlog of applications as the CRT internal system was overwhelmed. Action was taken which means that applications for an Equality Adjustment are processed very quickly. The downside is that the system has been resourced by reducing the number of staff working locally and much more now has to go through Customer Services remotely. (Every plus has a minus - Newton's Laws of Motion)

[cuthound]

Perhaps it is time for CRT to specify health conditions that will result in a licence being refused like the DVLA do.

 

After all they are a navigation authority not a sheltered accommodation provider.

[junior]

Live and let live. 

 

Everyone has to be somewhere.

[Stroudwater1]

7 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Perhaps it is time for CRT to specify health conditions that will result in a licence being refused like the DVLA do.

 

After all they are a navigation authority not a sheltered accommodation provider.

It seems we must rethink. I’ve not heard of CRT being termed a “service provider”. Until now I too had thought of them primarily as a navigation authority. Is it a navigation service then? 
 

1 in 15 adults now hold a vehicle blue badge so CRT need to get a handle on this PDQ. 

2 minutes ago, junior said:

Live and let live. 

 

Everyone has to be somewhere.

 

 

There are responsibilities too though. I was disappointed my planning permission for my yurt in Trafalgar Square was declined, but with your wise advice think I will just put it up anyway 

[haggis]

2 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

1 in 15 adults now hold a vehicle blue badge so CRT need to get a handle on this PDQ. 

 

 

I think the conditions needed to get a blue badge vary considerably, depending on where you live. I used to have one but when i applied for a renewal, I was refused as I could walk up to 10 metres. The neighbouring local authority are not so strict (my more able bodied sister in law was not refused) .

However, as I can walk, I accept the ruling. To me the big advantage of having a badge was because the spaces were wider and it was easier for me to get in and out of the car. Maybe I should get a narrower car 🙂 .

[wakey_wake]

25 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Perhaps it is time for CRT to specify health conditions that will result in a licence being refused like the DVLA do.

 

After all they are a navigation authority not a sheltered accommodation provider.

That's a wedge, the thin end of which I prefer not to see.

The boat has a licence. The if the boat has 'disabilities' it fails the BSS.

 

The skipper and crew don't need a licence.

[cuthound]

10 minutes ago, wakey_wake said:

That's a wedge, the thin end of which I prefer not to see.

The boat has a licence. The if the boat has 'disabilities' it fails the BSS.

 

The skipper and crew don't need a licence.

 

Living adjacent to the canal as well as being a boater I see plenty of examples of near misses, so perhaps a licence for skippers would be a good thing.

 

The point of my original post is that CRT are a navigation authority and if someone has a specific disability that severely restricts or precludes them from boating, then canal life is not for them.

 

Taken to its logical conclusion too many permanently moored boaters will prevent the canals from being used for navigation.

Edited April 16 by cuthound
To remove a full stop masquerading as a space.

[Mike Todd]

57 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Perhaps it is time for CRT to specify health conditions that will result in a licence being refused like the DVLA do.

 

After all they are a navigation authority not a sheltered accommodation provider.

CRT have made your second point. I suspect this is why they distinguish between those whose condition allows them to move but not within the normal CC rules and those that cannot move at all. They have stated clearly that they do not support the latter for whom no 'reasonable adaptation' is available as the adaptation is to assist the boater in meeting the ambition to move.

 

Formulating ever more complex conditions is expensive and, for the relatively small number of cases, not economically sensible. The greater majority of boaters in need of an Equality Adjustment to allow them to maintain restricted movement pattern now find the system (as far as I can tell) reasonably acceptable process.

 

However, any rule-based system that confers benefits is always going to be vulnerable to those pushing the boundaries, as the BBC have now found in respect of certain visa applicants. However, every attempt to plug gaps has to accept (a) greater expenditure to establish and enforce and (b) there will then be an increase in 'hard' cases.

[David Mack]

34 minutes ago, cuthound said:

The point of my original post is that CRT are a navigation authority and if someone has a specific disability that severely restricts or precludes them from boating, then canal life is not for them.

But CRT does not have the legal power to refuse a licence on the inability of the boater to actually boat. So they have to issue the licence (if the other criteria are met), and are then legally obliged to make reasonable adjustments for the boater's disability.