Bulkhead gas fitting

[Sid Charles]

Hi

Please convince me that I am not losing the plot, you see when I stripped this old boat of all it's previous wiring and gas piping, I found the fitting where the copper pipe passes through the bulkhead into the gas locker was a straight-through type, it did have olives to clamp the tube, but the 3/8 copper was not cut. I went to Midland Chandlers and I was looking at the fittings, I decided to go with the one that has a compression fitting at either side, so the copper pipe comes into it from both sides and is fitted with an olive, I remember at the time the salesman questioned me if I had the correct one? anyway that was 18 months ago.

Only recently, I tested the gas and by using the Alde bubble test I found there was a leak, and of all places in the most difficult place to reach, and so I have had to strip woodwork and all sorts to get to it ( I had previously shown the Gas safe guy and asked if its limited accessibility was OK and he was happy with it) but then I found it was leaking very slightly, so I went onto the Midland Chandlers website to find the straight through one, there are quite a number of them but they all say compression, so I picked the one that sounded right, when it arrived it is the same as the one which was leaking, so I rang Midland Chandlers and was passed around to various staff, non of them really knew what I was explaining, they promised to call me back, but I am still waiting. So my question is does anyone know if the straight through type are available, I am sure I wasn't dreaming, I kept the old one but I cannot find it now.

[Batavia]

To convert a normal bulkhead fitting to allow for the pipe to be passed through you just need to drill out the "stop" in the middle of the fitting.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

16 minutes ago, Batavia said:

To convert a normal bulkhead fitting to allow for the pipe to be passed through you just need to drill out the "stop" in the middle of the fitting.

It is normal practice on boats to do this. Anything that minimises the number of gas joints is a good thing. The guy who installed the gas on my boat did it this way and he was gas safe registered, with LPG and boat qualifications on his ticket, as well as being a BSS examiner.

You can even leave off the olives and back nuts if you want and use a dab of silicone to waterproof. The fitting's job is to protect the pipe from abrasion, as it passes through the bulkhead.

[Sid Charles]

31 minutes ago, Batavia said:

To convert a normal bulkhead fitting to allow for the pipe to be passed through you just need to drill out the "stop" in the middle of the fitting.

Glad you said that because that was my plan 10mm drill in my lathe straight through.

[BEngo]

Before you put the drill in check that the pipe entries are actually concentric with the hexagon you may be chucking  it by.  Stuff like genuine Wade fittings will be, but cheaper stuff is often not.

[MarineHeatingSolutions]

Your question has already been answered, but I would like to add that a bubble tester is not a reliable tool for testing gas pressures. I would recommend installing a proper gas test point for a manometer. You can then test your lock-up, standing and working pressures as well. This is, of course, for leisure boats only. If you are a liveaboard, you'd need to hire a GasSafe-registered engineer to commission the system.

Edited April 8 by MarineHeatingSolutions

[Tonka]

7 minutes ago, MarineHeatingSolutions said:

Your question has already been answered, but I would like to add that a bubble tester is not a reliable tool for testing gas pressures. I would recommend installing a proper gas test point for a manometer. You can then test your lock-up, standing and working pressures as well. This is, of course, for leisure boats only. If you are a liveaboard, you'd need to hire a GasSafe-registered engineer to commission the system.

Interestingly I thought the BSS were outlawing test points in favour of bubble test points.

[nicknorman]

25 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Interestingly I thought the BSS were outlawing test points in favour of bubble test points.

Surely not! Do you have a source for that? As previously mentioned a test point has more uses than just tightness testing, and even for that job it is more sensitive than a bubble tester.

 

I think the point is that for a liveaboard boat, the BSS requirements for gas tight can be satisfied with a bubble tester and hence gas safe bod with boat lpg ticket is not required, whereas for a test point it is. For a leisure boat there isn’t any advantage in having a bubble tester IMO.

 

The logic of this distinction between liveaboard and leisure is of course ludicrous, but is the industry’s prevailing interpretation of the GSIUR (law).

Edited April 8 by nicknorman

[MarineHeatingSolutions]

1 hour ago, Tonka said:

Interestingly I thought the BSS were outlawing test points in favour of bubble test points.

No, test points are not being "outlawed" by the BSS. The BSS has no powers to "outlaw" anything. They are actually a requirement for all gas installations. I have written a blog post on the subject if you are interested in learning more. https://marineheating.co.uk/bubble-testers-on-boats/

Edited April 8 by MarineHeatingSolutions

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, MarineHeatingSolutions said:

No, bubble testers are not being "outlawed" by the BSS. The BSS has no powers to "outlaw" anything. They are actually a requirement for new installations, and have been for some time. I have written a blog post on the subject if you are interested in learning more. https://marineheating.co.uk/bubble-testers-on-boats/

 

I think that you may have got that back to front, Tonka said he thought TEST POINTS were being outlawed. However I suspect, like Nick, it is towpath confusion between the BSS and GSIUR demands. One live-aboard gets told that a BSS inspector with no gas ticket can't test the gas in his home without a bubble tester and it suddenly becomes "test points are banned".

[MarineHeatingSolutions]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I think that you may have got that back to front, Tonka said he thought TEST POINTS were being outlawed. However I suspect, like Nick, it is towpath confusion between the BSS and GSIUR demands. One live-aboard gets told that a BSS inspector with no gas ticket can't test the gas in his home without a bubble tester and it suddenly becomes "test points are banned".

I did have it back to the front, but the content of the post was still technically correct. And I had edited it about 30 seconds after I posted it. So if you look at my post now, you will see the corrected version. It's best to let technical posts from me "settle" for a minute or two in case I want to correct any errors. 

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, MarineHeatingSolutions said:

I did have it back to the front, but the content of the post was still technically correct. And I had edited it about 30 seconds after I posted it. So if you look at my post now, you will see the corrected version. It's best to let technical posts from me "settle" for a minute or two in case I want to correct any errors. 

 

Same for me, and I am grateful when people point them out to me, so I can edit the post.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, MarineHeatingSolutions said:

It's best to let technical posts from me "settle" for a minute or two in case I want to correct any errors. 

 

Or, maybe read them thru a couple of times yourself before pressing 'post'.

[nicknorman]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Or, maybe read them thru a couple of times yourself before pressing 'post'.

No I’m with the other guy! I often post something having read it through, then immediately notice an obvious error and have to edit to correct it, especially if it is a long technical post.

[alan_fincher]

Even if you don't put a test point on your system you will often have at least one on any one of the following :- hob, oven, instantaneous water heater, gas boiler (and even maybe gas fridge, if you still have such a thing).

Our current boat has neither a bubble tester, (although I will eventually fit one), nor a standalone test point.  Our BSS examiner is happy to use one of thise on an appliance, e.g. the Morco.

[nicknorman]

5 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Even if you don't put a test point on your system you will often have at least one on any one of the following :- hob, oven, instantaneous water heater, gas boiler (and even maybe gas fridge, if you still have such a thing).

Our current boat has neither a bubble tester, (although I will eventually fit one), nor a standalone test point.  Our BSS examiner is happy to use one of thise on an appliance, e.g. the Morco.

The downside of that is that if there is a leak, it becomes very difficult to locate the source. With a central test point and shut off valves for the appliances you can shut them off in turn to find out which appliance is leaking or at least which section of pipe is leaking. I suggest that most leaks arise from appliances or the fittings in close proximity to them, rather than a long length of piping deciding to spring a leak.

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Or, maybe read them thru a couple of times yourself before pressing 'post'.

I still don't see them when I do that

[MarineHeatingSolutions]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Or, maybe read them thru a couple of times yourself before pressing 'post'.

Yes, I am aware of that. Even so, during a busy day while doing 3 things at once, mistakes can happen. I'm surprised the conversation hasn't moved on yet. I didn't think it was an unforgivable error, or indeed an unreasonable way to justify it. 

[Tonka]

7 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Surely not! Do you have a source for that? As previously mentioned a test point has more uses than just tightness testing, and even for that job it is more sensitive than a bubble tester.

 

I think the point is that for a liveaboard boat, the BSS requirements for gas tight can be satisfied with a bubble tester and hence gas safe bod with boat lpg ticket is not required, whereas for a test point it is. For a leisure boat there isn’t any advantage in having a bubble tester IMO.

 

The logic of this distinction between liveaboard and leisure is of course ludicrous, but is the industry’s prevailing interpretation of the GSIUR (law).

I stated that as you pointed out not every BSS Examiner can touch the test point. Only those that are deemed lpg  qualified. Which as you pointed out is ludicrous 

[Lady M]

No it depends on whether the boater is a liveaboard.

[ditchcrawler]

44 minutes ago, Lady M said:

No it depends on whether the boater is a liveaboard.

I would say it depends on both

[Lady M]

My BSS man is not gas safe registered and he checks my leisure boat via a test point.  He would not be allowed by gas safety regulations relating to houses to do this if it were used as a liveaboard.

[GUMPY]

I once had an examiner say to me " you don't live on the boat do you?"  whilst he was moving towards the test point.

"No of course not" was my reply.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I lied 😱

 

 

[blackrose]

19 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

Even if you don't put a test point on your system you will often have at least one on any one of the following :- hob, oven, instantaneous water heater, gas boiler (and even maybe gas fridge, if you still have such a thing).

Our current boat has neither a bubble tester, (although I will eventually fit one), nor a standalone test point.  Our BSS examiner is happy to use one of thise on an appliance, e.g. the Morco.

 

Yes, a test nipple is a test nipple isn't it? I can't see the point of installing one separately and introducing unnecessary joints in the system if at least one of the connected appliances already has one.

 

I don't have a dedicated test nipple apart from the one in the locker on the low pressure side of the gas regulator. I think many/most regulators have them fitted?

 

Edited Thursday at 07:28 by blackrose

[MarineHeatingSolutions]

8 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Yes, a test nipple is a test nipple isn't it? I can't see the point of installing one separately and introducing unnecessary joints in the system if at least one of the connected appliances already has one.

 

I don't have a dedicated test nipple apart from the one in the locker on the low pressure side of the gas regulator. I think many/most regulators have them fitted?

 

Yes, most modern wall-mounted regulator assemblies now have them built in. As mentioned by someone earlier, the reason why a test point directly on one of the appliances only is not ideal is that if you want to turn the appliance shut off valve off, to test the rest of the rest of system, you then don't have a test point. Ideally, you would have a test point at the regulator and one at each appliance, so you can measure the pressure drop across the pipework. The system needs to be designed for proper testing by a gas engineer, not only for the tightness test carried out during a BSS exam. While I agree that unnecessary joints in a gas line are to be avoided, this isn't really an issue if joints are competently made. It certainly isn't a reason not to install the necessary fittings for proper testing.

15 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

I would say it depends on both

The issue is that, to test with a manometer at a test point, the BSS examiner will have to open the gas line at the test point. This constitutes "work" under the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998, and anyone carrying out "work" on a gas installation must be certified to be competent to do so.

 

In my opinion, this is overkill for a simple tightness test. But because the wording of the regulations is what it is, the BSS can not get around instructing their non-GasSafe registered examiners not to open up test points on liveaboard boats and only carry out tightness tests with bubble testers, if available, or hire a GasSafe registered engineer to do the tightness test while the BSS examiner observes them.