Advice on this narrowboat & extent of work needed

[Sheff]

Sorry it's a long one- I was hoping for some advice on a boat I viewed. I'm now looking at getting my first narrowboat after researching and dreaming for far too long. I was initially looking into GRP as a starter boat, but after spending the last few months viewing some potentials I've decided to up my budget and go straight for a little steel narrowboat. It seems like the inflated covid pricing might be normalising a bit. I'm ideally after a smaller cruiser stern around 35-40ft. Budget 30k.

 

I went to see a 2000 37ft Piper boat at a brokers. Interior was sound but exterior looked more neglected than the ad and seemed overpriced at 30k. I'm wondering if my expectations are too high.

Firstly, is my budget ok for a half decent little narrowboat/non project nowadays?

 

And secondly, how worrying are the things below in the photos that seemed neglect to me? Or is it fairly standard stuff to expect/easier DIY fixes than I'm worrying about? I'm not interested in this one but for when viewing others.

 

The bodge paint job on this boat, especially on the stern was peeling away in chunks like in the first photo and clearly just painted over old paint with no prep. I know this is a major job sanding back and doing properly. Can you do this sort of work DIY whilst in the water? (I'm thinking about the dust/debri pollution/or rules in a marina).

 

How worrying are the areas of rust like in the photos? Or just a case of sanding, treating and repainting?

 

The ad said the engine had been overhauled this year. There was some water in the engine bay..The deck board was pretty worn and drainage channels full of crap so I expected some rainwater but it looked and smelt like it was mixed with oil/diesel, but I know very little about it. The engine started fine with a bit of white smoke.

 

I found an old receipt for blacking last year which had welding work done with it: "spot weld deep pits and welded bottom seam full width of hull". Broker didn't know the original steel thickness but said it wouldn't have been 10mm. The deep pits worried me with a thinner baseplate but broker played it down. How concerning is this? Or will this sort of welding be standard on a 26 year old boat?

 

Neither me or the broker could find an inspection hatch to check the bilge. Is this normal? With the neglected exterior it didn't fill me with confidence.

 

After looking into grp boats for so long this felt a bit overwhelming. I know there's going to be work needed at any price point and especially my budget but I don't want a big rusty project and expected something much tidier for this sort of money. Am I being realistic?

 

Thanks in advance. And also for all the general info on this forum. I'm doing this alone as a total boat novice and it's been invaluable 🙏

 

Engine bay:

[Tony Brooks]

FWIW the images around the engine area look as expected on an older boat and far better than many.

 

What does give me concerns is that black strip along the top of the cabin side, bridging the area where the cabin side joins the roof/handrail. It looks as if it is a separate piece of material (not necessary cloth, just something unidentified), and it looks as if rust is creeping down from below it. I wonder what it is hiding and why it was fitted. I wonder if it is hiding rust holes or something.

[David Mack]

8 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

What does give me concerns is that black strip along the top of the cabin side, bridging the area where the cabin side joins the roof/handrail. It looks as if it is a separate piece of material (not necessary cloth, just something unidentified), and it looks as if rust is creeping down from below it. I wonder what it is hiding and why it was fitted. I wonder if it is hiding rust holes or something.

Looks to me like a black painted steel handrail and cream cabin side, both in reasonable condition.  But someone has overpainted the red coach line in green without doing the preparation first, hence the green is peeling off.

8 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

FWIW the images around the engine area look as expected on an older boat and far better than many.

I agree. Better than most, although rusty on the side where the bilge water gathers - very common.

[Tony Brooks]

13 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Looks to me like a black painted steel handrail and cream cabin side, both in reasonable condition.  But someone has overpainted the red coach line in green without doing the preparation first, hence the green is peeling off.

 

If you are correct, and you may well be, the marks/distortion along the top suggest that it has been tack welded along its length rather than continuousely and that would seem to be an ideal invitation for rusting.

[BEngo]

I would be equally interested in what is going on under the "gritty green" patches on the roof.  I would  want to do a  good check that they are adhering all over and that there is not water trapped beneath them.

 

An in water repaint is feasible.  The big job will be removing all the old paint for which a scabbler, Tercoo rotary blaster or a needle gun are the tool of  choice.  Forget main removal with sanding discs/belts unless you have a lot of time.  You will still need them for corners etc.  Modern tools come  with dust extraction -you must use it.  Scabblers stc produce chips rather than dust and this can be captured with a vacuum cleaner hose.

 

Working outside,  plan to do small sections and get a non-porous primer on as soon as possible after paint removal, cleaning up and treating any rust.  Same for top coats, but organise good, windless, weather🤞. Insects will be a fact of life.  Brush off the ones that stick, touch up after any that crawl.

 

If possible, rent a wet dock for the job- allow 4-6 weeks overall or 1-2 weeks for just the finish coats.  After the big paint clean-off at the start you will spend much time waiting for paint to dry

 

Edited April 7 by BEngo

[LadyG]

Move on.

 

Edited April 7 by LadyG

[system 4-50]

1 hour ago, Sheff said:

I'm thinking about the dust/debri pollution/or rules in a marina).

My understanding, not based on experience, is that most marinas will not let you do significant work whilst in the marina.  Can somebody else confirm?

[LadyG]

If the OP were to buy this boat he would need to find a boatshed with power or have it out on the hard  A DIY on a pontoon would get justified complaints from neighbours. Not to mention the whole summer is lost. 

Edited April 7 by LadyG

[Sheff]

24 minutes ago, LadyG said:

If the OP were to buy this boat he would need to find a boatshed with power or have it out on the hard  A DIY on a pontoon would get justified complaints from neighbours. Not to mention the whole summer is lost. 

Thanks, definitely not where I wanted to spend the summer with my first boat. Will keep looking. Thanks all. 

[Tony Brooks]

8 hours ago, Sheff said:

Thanks, definitely not where I wanted to spend the summer with my first boat. Will keep looking. Thanks all. 

 

As BEngo told you, it is feasible to prep and paint your boat outside and along the cut, but it takes a long time because once you put paint on an area it needs to dry before you prep another area. and you have to wait for suitable weather. When I did mine (whole cabin sides at a time), I dried off and painted fairy early - after the dew had gone, and then went out for most of the day while the point dried.

 

You do not need a boat shed for the heavy-duty prep work this one will need, but you will need power for tools, so that probably means a generator, but remember BEngo's advice about applying non-porous primer. A paint shed or covered dock will make paining faster, but it would not take a whole summer, BEngo said 4 to 6 weeks for the whole job or 1 to 2 for just the painting.

 

I am not saying this boat is worth pursuing. but you need to look back through the forum to get a feel for who seems to have a good idea about the advice they give and who can be a bit "dramatic". It will be a lot of work, but you will know it has been done well, which you won't know if it had been painted up for sale.

 

Note that more than one person gave you advice about the job and possible problem areas, only one was negative.

[BEngo]

Your effort is effectively a budget multiplier.   You can no doubt find a well-looked after boat in excellent nick.  It certainly will have a higher asking price (possibly more than your budget)  than a sound but scruffy boat ( as the one you posted about appears to be) which can be brought up to a good standard with your time, tools and materiel.

 

The art is to spot the sound but scruffy and distinguish it from the knackered and scruffy!

[Yank on the Cut]

But.... Pipers are excellent boats in my experience. I've had two - one under the father and one the son. The interior fitout is first class. I'm unsure who manufactured the hulls or if made in house, but both boats behaved very well in the water and the systems installations were really good. A repaint of this boat would cost at least £10,000 I suspect. But the level of neglect means more problems could be found with the engine, etc. I think you would need to make a very low offer.

[Tony Brooks]

5 minutes ago, Yank on the Cut said:

A repaint of this boat would cost at least £10,000 I suspect.

 

Professional, yes, DIY, nowhere near that amount, I doubt it would cost a DIYer £1000 in materials, and the OP seemed interested in the DIY option. 

[blackrose]

The problem with most boats at or under the OP's budget is that you're basically buying someone else's problems. Keep looking and hopefully you might find something that's been properly cared for and maintained.

[Gybe Ho]

4 minutes ago, blackrose said:

The problem with most boats at or under the OP's budget is that you're basically buying someone else's problems. Keep looking and hopefully you might find something that's been properly cared for and maintained.

 

Agreed, the OP can do better with a £30k budget.

 

It would be helpful if the OP would state the usage intension e.g. long distance continuous cruiser, minimal local continuous cruiser, off grid London crash-pad, on-grid marina leisure boat?

 

The problem with a 37 footer is that after a major renovation project it is still a 37ft narrowboat where market reality places a cap on value. A 3k invertor/charger, lithium batteries, water pump, 2 solar panels, new cooker, bilge pump, a 1/2 day visit by a boat electrician

 or a new calorifier all cost the same whether fitted in a 37ft or 60ft hull.

[cheesegas]

11 hours ago, LadyG said:

If the OP were to buy this boat he would need to find a boatshed with power or have it out on the hard  A DIY on a pontoon would get justified complaints from neighbours. Not to mention the whole summer is lost. 

If you're after a functional and smart rather than mirror-polished finish, there's no need to do any of that. Painted half of my boat two summers ago over a couple of weeks - moored up on the Slough Arm away from any houses/boats, used a Tercoo in a drill and a sander to remove the rust spots and then rollered on the primer and topcoat. The weather is difficult though, there was a burst of rain that wasn't forecast which landed on the paint whilst it was still sticky but it hasn't affected the finish.

 

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

Professional, yes, DIY, nowhere near that amount, I doubt it would cost a DIYer £1000 in materials, and the OP seemed interested in the DIY option. 

I'd agree with this. For the back half of my 45', I spent around £300-400 in paint, brushes, sandpaper...and a new Tercoo.

 

 

 

If you have the time, it's worth painting it yourself to save some money on the buying price but £30k is a bit too much in my opinion. Engine bay is better than expected for something of that age though!

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, Yank on the Cut said:

But.... Pipers are excellent boats in my experience. I've had two - one under the father and one the son. The interior fitout is first class. I'm unsure who manufactured the hulls or if made in house, but both boats behaved very well in the water and the systems installations were really good. A repaint of this boat would cost at least £10,000 I suspect. But the level of neglect means more problems could be found with the engine, etc. I think you would need to make a very low offer.

Yes, the main problem is the neglect,, the unknown. It might be fine, and indeed a professional repaint would be great, it might even repay the cost when one spreads the cost over four or five years, its only 37ft. Should only take a week with professionals tooled up for the job.

There are two aspects, is the hull sound, a survey costs £1000, takes time to arrange

 

[Tony Brooks]

33 minutes ago, cheesegas said:

The weather is difficult though, there was a burst of rain that wasn't forecast which landed on the paint whilst it was still sticky but it hasn't affected the finish.

 

and even if it had, it is not too onerous to flat back with fine wet & dry, used wet, and repaint.

 

 

 

[alan_fincher]

16 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

What does give me concerns is that black strip along the top of the cabin side, bridging the area where the cabin side joins the roof/handrail. It looks as if it is a separate piece of material (not necessary cloth, just something unidentified), and it looks as if rust is creeping down from below it. I wonder what it is hiding and why it was fitted. I wonder if it is hiding rust holes or something.

 

16 hours ago, David Mack said:

Looks to me like a black painted steel handrail and cream cabin side, both in reasonable condition.  But someone has overpainted the red coach line in green without doing the preparation first, hence the green is peeling off.

 

I'm not sure I Agree with David.

 

It looks far more than an added extra layer or two of paint peeling off.

I read it as severe rusting of the underlying steel, quite likely involving some pitting.

 

The complete grab rail structure seems weird to me, as overall it projects out beyond the cabin sides.  I'm happy to be corrected, but I don't think it is standard David Piper construction.  I'm not even convinced it is original to the boat.

I can't place why I think this, but additionally the windows do not look to me typical of those usually found on Piper builds.

[Tony Brooks]

12 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

The complete grab rail structure seems weird to me, as overall it projects out beyond the cabin sides.  I'm happy to be corrected, but I don't think it is standard David Piper construction.  I'm not even convinced it is original to the boat.

I can't place why I think this, but additionally the windows do not look to me typical of those usually found on Piper builds.

 

What it sparked in my mind was the way early Liverpool boats had separate cabin sides and roof, with the roof folded down over the top of the cabin sides.

[WulfNut]

I wonder what that "bottom seam full width of hull"  refers to.  

[David Mack]

The baseplate is unlikely to be a single sheet of steel, so there are transverse welds across the width of the boat joining the individual sheets together. Budget boatbuilders weld these from the top only, which will leave a visible gap on the underside if there is not full weld penetration. I assume this is what the surveyor has spotted.

[LadyG]

14 minutes ago, David Mack said:

The baseplate is unlikely to be a single sheet of steel, so there are transverse welds across the width of the boat joining the individual sheets together. Budget boatbuilders weld these from the top only, which will leave a visible gap on the underside if there is not full weld penetration. I assume this is what the surveyor has spotted.

But presumably this was not a budget build, Piper is well known. Id use apolloduck search to compare current pricing, and check for the details which have been queried , windows, and grab rail....

Can one be 100% sure this is a Piper. Would there be a build number, maybe paperwork, presumably too early for the HIN number? 

Edited April 8 by LadyG

[Lady M]

I believe that Piper are still building boats and suggest that they may be able to help.  

[Bee]

You would have a lot of work (and expense) to return this boat to reasonable condition and you would still end up with a boat needing more work and with unknown issues below the waterline. The transverse weld bit is not great, it suggests the bottom was welded from one side only, even if that has been remedied it is not great. Deep pits sounds to me as though the boat has hardly been docked in its life. Chances are that it has a lot of pitting and only ever had a coat or two of bitumastic slapped on. If you can't lift the floor it may/may not have damp bilges with corrosion and scale chewing away from the inside. I don't get a good feeling about this boat. If a boat has a really good interior well maintained topsides or is unusually interesting then hull work could well be acceptable but this just looks tired all over.