Calorifier

[Sid Charles]

Hi Guys

 

Does anyone have an internal drawing of a calorifier? I would like to know what the 2 x hoses from my engine connect to within the vessel, I am aware there is a straight element rod but I really would like to know how what I presume is a sort of coiled tube? which hot engine water passes through, the reason I ask is I keep on topping up my engine expansion tank (the boat is on dry land) and when I return the following day the tank is dry, there are no leaks and the skin tank was vacuumed out as best as it could, then filled with water/anti freeze only then did I connect the skin tank to the cooling system, I appreciate I lost water from the engine jacket when I took the water pump off, but I have more than compensated for that, I suppose I will just keep filling it up, but I did wonder could it be  entering the empty calorifier ( like the coil within is broken) ????

[Jen-in-Wellies]

14 minutes ago, Sid Charles said:

Hi Guys

 

Does anyone have an internal drawing of a calorifier? I would like to know what the 2 x hoses from my engine connect to within the vessel, I am aware there is a straight element rod but I really would like to know how what I presume is a sort of coiled tube? which hot engine water passes through, the reason I ask is I keep on topping up my engine expansion tank (the boat is on dry land) and when I return the following day the tank is dry, there are no leaks and the skin tank was vacuumed out as best as it could, then filled with water/anti freeze only then did I connect the skin tank to the cooling system, I appreciate I lost water from the engine jacket when I took the water pump off, but I have more than compensated for that, I suppose I will just keep filling it up, but I did wonder could it be  entering the empty calorifier ( like the coil within is broken) ????

It is a coil within the cauliflower. If the calorifier is empty of water, then it is possible that vibration of the unsupported coil may have fractured it, if the boat had been run like this for a while. A way to test would be to connect the cauliflower engine coil inlet and outlet hoses directly rogether and bypass the cauliflower. If the coolant loss stops, the coil is leaking. Alternatively, attach hoses to both ends of the coil, with the other ends open. Fill with water, with the other ends of the hoses above cauliflower level and see if the water drains away. 

 

[Tony Brooks]

They are normally connected to a simple coil of copper pipe that has hot engine coolant circulating through the coil. This heats the water in the calorifier via the copper pipe.

 

The two water systems, domestic hot water and engine coolant should never be joined.

 

Some horizontal calorifiers may us a sort of double walled "tube" with coolant between the double walls, but the principle is the same.

 

Now what caused you to wonder about this.

 

There are two common causes on tank cooled boats.

 

On boat hat use the exhaust manifold as header tank they manifold often can not hold sufficient airspace to allow for the volume of water in such systems to expand a sit is heated. This causes coolant to be ejected via the overflow each time the engine is heated, so if you top it up it just gets ejected again. The cure is to fill it once to the brim, go for a good run, let the engine cool right down and check the level. If you can see water in the bottom of the tank, then that is probably the correct topping up level. If you can't then either the problem is as sated below or a leak. Once you rule both those causes out the answer is to fit a remote header tank

 

If your header tank is one remote from the engine, and you are going by the MAX mark, then don't, follow the above procedure to find the correct level. 

If it is a small remote tank (say half a pint or so) to MAX, then fit a larger one.

 

 

A very common cause, especially if an inexperienced boater has been doing cooling system work, is that they have air or gas trapped in the top of the header tank or in a loop of hose. Air/gas expands more than water so, again, it expels excess water when the system is heated. The cure is to manipulate and loops in the main hoses and then vent the skin tank. The majority of boats have vent plugs of some sort in the top of the skin tank.

 

 

One final possibility that you should not think of until you prove none of the above are the cause is a minor head gasket leak that is filling the system with gasses. You can buy liquid to add to a sample of the coolant to check for this.

Edited April 4 by Tony Brooks

[David Mack]

If the coil is leaking engine coolant into the domestic hot water, the latter will become contaminated with antifreeze, which is not a good idea. Antifreeze is poisonous, and you definitely do not want it getting into your cold (drinking) water.

[Tony Brooks]

8 minutes ago, David Mack said:

If the coil is leaking engine coolant into the domestic hot water, the latter will become contaminated with antifreeze, which is not a good idea. Antifreeze is poisonous, and you definitely do not want it getting into your cold (drinking) water.

 

If such a leak occurs then usually the pressure difference causes the domestic water to overflow the coolant system all the time the water pump is turned on. Zero to15 psi cooling system pressure only when hot, and 30 to 45 psi domestic water system when the pump is turned on. The pump is also likely to run very frequently with all the taps closed.

Edited April 4 by Tony Brooks

[Jen-in-Wellies]

6 minutes ago, David Mack said:

If the coil is leaking engine coolant into the domestic hot water, the latter will become contaminated with antifreeze, which is not a good idea. Antifreeze is poisonous, and you definitely do not want it getting into your cold (drinking) water.

I've used Propylene Glycol based antifreeze in my stove backboiler and solar thermal system to negate this risk. Propylene glycol is relatively safe for consumption, compared with Ethylene Glycol based antifreezes. Still wouldn't want to be drinking it though! 

Are there any engine antifreezes based on Propylene Glycol? 

[system 4-50]

Wiki:

For certain uses as a food additive, propylene glycol is considered as GRAS by the US Food and Drug Administration, and is approved for food manufacturing.^[8] In the European Union, it has E-number E1520 for food applications. For cosmetics and pharmacology, the number is E490. Propylene glycol is also present in propylene glycol alginate, which is known as E405.

Propylene glycol is approved and used as a vehicle for topical, oral, and some intravenous pharmaceutical preparations in the US and Europe.

Edited April 4 by system 4-50

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, Sid Charles said:

Hi Guys

 

Does anyone have an internal drawing of a calorifier? I would like to know what the 2 x hoses from my engine connect to within the vessel, I am aware there is a straight element rod but I really would like to know how what I presume is a sort of coiled tube? which hot engine water passes through, the reason I ask is I keep on topping up my engine expansion tank (the boat is on dry land) and when I return the following day the tank is dry, there are no leaks and the skin tank was vacuumed out as best as it could, then filled with water/anti freeze only then did I connect the skin tank to the cooling system, I appreciate I lost water from the engine jacket when I took the water pump off, but I have more than compensated for that, I suppose I will just keep filling it up, but I did wonder could it be  entering the empty calorifier ( like the coil within is broken) ????

I think this is from TB Training 

 

[Sid Charles]

Looking at all your valid replies today I ran the engine and topped up the expansion tank which is mounted just above the engine, so is actually higher than any water level either in the skin tank or the engine itself, I stopped adding water when the vessel was showing water half way up, when I stopped the engine the water stayed at that level, I'll look again tomorrow, I have more worrying stuff on my mind because only today have I tested my gas piping for the first time since the install using my bubble tester, and there are bubbles! there has been a lot of effing going on, I am dead sure of all my joints, when I say all I mean the copper piping goes all the way from the gas locker to the kitchen where there is a TEE (all nuts very tight) it tee's off to a Bullfinch valve which isolates the gas hob, the other side of the tee goes to the brand new Thetford oven but to a gas valve first. I wonder if I am doing it right? I turned the gas on (there is a change over valve) so I had that set to the relevant bottle, I then tested to see if gas was arriving at the 2 appliances and it was, then I shut both isolators off, went to the bubble tester and depressed it and there are bubbles. The instructions say hold it for 10 seconds so I did but the bubbles continued meaning I have a leak, I spoke to my friendly gas safe fella and he says it must be one of my joints F**K me, brilliant I'll have to eliminate them one by one, all the joints are tight but not stupid tight as to damage something, tomorrow is another day I suppose.

Edited April 4 by Sid Charles

[Alan de Enfield]

39 minutes ago, Sid Charles said:

tomorrow is another day I suppose.

 

When you purchased this boat (was it about 2 years ago) did you have a survey ? were you aware of the condition and that it was a major project ?

 

You seem to have had problems / faults with everything from internal fit-out to curtain rails, to chimney roof 'rings' to electric and water.

 

Has any part if the boat actually been 'trouble free' ?

 

I'm sure you will have real satisfaction when it is actually finished and you can go cruising.

[Sid Charles]

13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

When you purchased this boat (was it about 2 years ago) did you have a survey ? were you aware of the condition and that it was a major project ?

 

You seem to have had problems / faults with everything from internal fit-out to curtain rails, to chimney roof 'rings' to electric and water.

 

Has any part if the boat actually been 'trouble free' ?

 

I'm sure you will have real satisfaction when it is actually finished and you can go cruising.

Are you having a go at me?

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Sid Charles said:

Are you having a go at me?

 

Why would you think that ?

 

Not at all - I think you are coping well and I know you'll have a real sense of achievement at the end.

 

It is an excellent example for newbies looking to do a project - no one ever believes that it'll take 4 or 5 years but it does, and you need real "stickability" to suceed.

[Sid Charles]

Oh right, sorry a bit hot headed today after things going tits up for the n'th time, yes I couldn't afford a boat really, so I bought this wreck, well actually I wasn't bothered about the interior, it had a hull survey and for a boat built in 1978 it was good, base plate, the thinnest point found is 8.4 mm which is great, some pitting at the waterline and an engine that ran, that's all I wanted, I knew I was in for a penny in for a pound. I stripped it out virtually alone, learning all the way. I'm an engineer but not a plumber, not a joiner and not an electrician but I have a brain, unlike some I see who buy boats and don't have a clue about anything (oh help, there's water coming in) etc and it's the flippin stern gland leaking, they don't know eff all. I'm not one of that type I am a hands on and sort it out, yes it's more than 2 years since I started, but I have got the charging electrics working, the 12 volt house wiring done all by myself and even the 230 v from the shoreline/Inverter/3 way switch to a consumer unit again I did it all. Having said all that I come on here for a bit of advise because you people have been there and done that, Tony Brooks has helped me a lot and I always listen to what Jen in wellies has to say, and of course, you and others too many to mention. So in the morning I am over to the boat, I'm going to split the gas pipe at the first compression fitting and fit an stop valve, then do a gas bubble test, it hat proves good I will move along until I find the joint that seems to be leaking (which I was 100% sure would not) I have worked with steam and water and I take care my joints are real good, but everyone can F up now and again. Thanks for contributing Alan.

[cuthound]

10 minutes ago, Sid Charles said:

Oh right, sorry a bit hot headed today after things going tits up for the n'th time, yes I couldn't afford a boat really, so I bought this wreck, well actually I wasn't bothered about the interior, it had a hull survey and for a boat built in 1978 it was good, base plate, the thinnest point found is 8.4 mm which is great, some pitting at the waterline and an engine that ran, that's all I wanted, I knew I was in for a penny in for a pound. I stripped it out virtually alone, learning all the way. I'm an engineer but not a plumber, not a joiner and not an electrician but I have a brain, unlike some I see who buy boats and don't have a clue about anything (oh help, there's water coming in) etc and it's the flippin stern gland leaking, they don't know eff all. I'm not one of that type I am a hands on and sort it out, yes it's more than 2 years since I started, but I have got the charging electrics working, the 12 volt house wiring done all by myself and even the 230 v from the shoreline/Inverter/3 way switch to a consumer unit again I did it all. Having said all that I come on here for a bit of advise because you people have been there and done that, Tony Brooks has helped me a lot and I always listen to what Jen in wellies has to say, and of course, you and others too many to mention. So in the morning I am over to the boat, I'm going to split the gas pipe at the first compression fitting and fit an stop valve, then do a gas bubble test, it hat proves good I will move along until I find the joint that seems to be leaking (which I was 100% sure would not) I have worked with steam and water and I take care my joints are real good, but everyone can F up now and again. Thanks for contributing Alan.

 

Before splitting the system. I would get a bottle of gas leak detection fluid from Screwfix, slather it over each joint and repair any that show a leak.

 

https://www.screwfix.com/p/flomasta-gas-leak-detector-spray-250ml/4520V?tc=VC2&gclsrc=aw.ds&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=19822796606&gbraid=0AAAAAD8IdPwsiCgbYv68ZOcsDs09-zSH1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw7cLOBhDmARIsAGsuA0lNAdfaROwEtKotdixoH5diohCIsEgoyrmm71-l1UT1LDBtrn7LQg8aArcBEALw_wcB

[Sid Charles]

That's a good idea, I think I will

6 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Before splitting the system. I would get a bottle of gas leak detection fluid from Screwfix, slather it over each joint and repair any that show a leak.

 

https://www.screwfix.com/p/flomasta-gas-leak-detector-spray-250ml/4520V?tc=VC2&gclsrc=aw.ds&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=19822796606&gbraid=0AAAAAD8IdPwsiCgbYv68ZOcsDs09-zSH1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw7cLOBhDmARIsAGsuA0lNAdfaROwEtKotdixoH5diohCIsEgoyrmm71-l1UT1LDBtrn7LQg8aArcBEALw_wcB

Can't get any until next week, what about washing up liquid?

[springy]

18 minutes ago, Sid Charles said:

<snip>

Can't get any until next week, what about washing up liquid?

not generally recommended - it usually contains salt as a thickening agent which can cause corrosion,

if you must, wash the joint well afterwards 

 

springy

[cuthound]

22 minutes ago, Sid Charles said:

That's a good idea, I think I will

Can't get any until next week, what about washing up liquid?

 

Soapy water made from hand soap is less corrosive, but must still be thoroughly washed off afterwards.

[Sid Charles]

20 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

Soapy water made from hand soap is less corrosive, but must still be thoroughly washed off afterwards.

Well I used some M&S washing up liquid and I tried a squirt of WD40 and all my joints are 100% however my worst fears were about to come about, when I went inside the boat and walked right through to the engine I could actually smell gas even though it was now turned off, it could only be one thing, the bloody bulkhead fitting, then I suddenly had a flash back to when I fitted it, I had purchased the compression type to replace the old decaying one which went straight through, I thought I was being smart rather than having to fiddle a long length of 3/8 copper through, I could lock it off on the inside and then the other end inside the gas locker ( my locker is gunnel height with access from the canal bank) so on the day of fitting I had a young guy helping, he wasn't much use and he didn't last long, but on the day I said to him " hold this spanner on and I will go in the locker and tighten from the other side", I didn't trust him but it looked as if all was OK, well it wasn't was it, he had trapped the copper olive, how I don't know, but he had, I put a spanner on and it seemed tight, yes it was but not gas tight, problem is I then built my shower which partly shrouds the fitting, so I have bitten the bullet and drilled a brand new hole a few inches away, and I will fit a bulkhead fitting like it used to have, I managed to fish out the copper tubing as it passes through the bathroom area ( and I had done such a good job of clipping it up under the gunnels) I'm gutted! but I am going to make a straight compression joint at that point so as to not disturb my piping any further, then hopefully we will have a gas tight system...bugger.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Sid Charles said:

I suddenly had a flash back to when I fitted it, I had purchased the compression type to replace the old decaying one which went straight through, I thought I was being smart rather than having to fiddle a long length of 3/8 copper through, I could lock it off on the inside and then the other end inside the gas locker ( my locker is gunnel height

 

 

The BSS does allow for 'straight thru' piping but it must be protected where it goes thru the bulkhead to prevent chafing.

 

LPG pipes passing through metallic bulkheads or decks
must be protected by the use of sleeves, grommets,
cable glands, bulkhead fittings, or equivalent.

 

If the pipe is not protected (or installed via a bulkhead fitting) it will be a BSS fail.

 

[Sid Charles]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

The BSS does allow for 'straight thru' piping but it must be protected where it goes thru the bulkhead to prevent chafing.

 

LPG pipes passing through metallic bulkheads or decks
must be protected by the use of sleeves, grommets,
cable glands, bulkhead fittings, or equivalent.

 

If the pipe is not protected (or installed via a bulkhead fitting) it will be a BSS fail.

 

No Alan it goes through a fitting and the copper pipe is clamped, but the one I chose is a compression fitting either side of the bulkhead, so an olive which has to be a good seal on both sides, the lad at Midland Chandlers did say at the time that he would choose the hollow type, but I always know best and end up paying for it.