Taking a boat to Europe

[rogher]

I'm looking at a Cat C boat for use in Europe (currently on the Thames) and wondering about the practicalities of getting it onto the European waterways.

I could take it across the channel with a pilot or have someone do that for me (I suffer from sea-sickness) or have it transported.

I assume that most on this forum are narrow boaters but there may be some with knowledge (even experience) of the consequences of taking a boat abroad.

Beside the physical transfer there may be other things to consider, such as VAT and 90 day rules...

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, rogher said:

Beside the physical transfer there may be other things to consider, such as VAT and 90 day rules...

 

Your qualifications to use the European waterways.Beside the physical transfer there may be other things to consider, such as VAT and 90 day rules...

 

I suggest that you join The Barge Association who know about these things

 

 

Edited April 2 by Tony Brooks

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, rogher said:

I'm looking at a Cat C boat for use in Europe (currently on the Thames)

 

Are you looking at a 'trip' over to Europe and then bringing it back, or, taking it over and leaving it there whilst you 'commute', or will you be living permanently aboard ?

 

What sort of boat is it (make / model) ?

 

What age is the boat ?

Europe is extremely 'hot' on RCD paperwork has it got a certificate of compliance ?

Does it have the certificate of location dated/timed Dec 31st 2020 at 11:00 pm which is when we finally left the EU

You will almost certainly need a certificate of payment of VAT

Depending on which country(s) you plan on cruising there may well be Radio (Marine VHF) licence requirements for the boat and the operator.

Black water holding tank ?

Your qualifications ?

 

It is bad enough having the correct 'paperwork' for just a short couple of days visit.

 

Join the RYA or DBA for up to date specific country information

[rogher]

The DBA looks like a good start!

I'm not sure that 'nipping across' is particularly practical, although I might change my view on that with experience. And the 90 day rule may enforce that...

The boat is a Piper 55 with paperwork but no VAT as it's rated as a 'qualifying ship'

I have no nautical qualifications of significance (yet)

[LadyG]

Suffering from seasickness, like Nelson?

Rare.

We used to pick up a crew of mostly 12 lads on a Friday night, every week. This would be repeated several times every summer.

They would be excited.

They would be given some tea and a loaf of bread, butter in a tub and two packs of cheese slices!

They were shown all the kit, all the safety drills, things that should interest them, these were lads who had had a tough upbringing. Used to taking orders from adults, and they had volunteered, for most it was a skive, for some an adventure. Responsibility was not something they had ever had!

The mate (aged 58) briefed them, told them the Skipper was planning the course and would be coming to give them a pep talk. They knew the score, expecting some father figure.

When the skipper arrived he made his presence felt. He was about aged 21!, wore fairly drab clothes , in fact he looked like their older brotner, and now he was going to take them out to sea, at midnight! Christ!

They were put to work,  they did not sit watching the horizon going up ... down,,,, up,,, down ... up... down...

Edited April 2 by LadyG

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, rogher said:

he boat is a Piper 55 with paperwork but no VAT as it's rated as a 'qualifying ship'

 

I believe that only exists in the UK you may need to check that out.

It should still have a VAT certificate showing the rate of VAT charged is Zero

 

Ie - it is zero rated boat (in the UK) as opposed to a standard rated boat. It is not VAT exempt.

 

Correct terminology is very important.

 

Hmmm- why not buy one over there it will be cheaper and have all of the proper documentation - the only problem is that if you bring it back to the UK you will probably have to pay 20% VAT on it.

 

[Tony Brooks]

8 minutes ago, rogher said:

The boat is a Piper 55 with paperwork but no VAT as it's rated as a 'qualifying ship'

 

My personal view is that if any jurisdiction looked into whether it actually does qualify they may well come up with a different decision. It is a known practice in the UK for some builders to claim their boat are a qualifying ship but stick a clause in the sames contract to the effect that if HMRC comes after them for VAT the purchaser is contracted to pay it.

 

If it is the one located at Windsor I would not trust the vendor's or Brokers statement. The hull freeboard does not look particularly high and as the tonnage in the requirements is a measurement volume for cargo volume I fear it might not qualify if looked into. I would want to see something from HMRC or get a surveyor the measure it and confirm it is what it claims.

 

I think another member had a similar sized boat that did qualify, but from memory t had a much higher freeboard.

[LadyG]

Seasickess: when we wentr offshore racing we insisted any new crew took a pill 6-8 hours before boarding. No operating machinery. No  lager. We never had one sea sick.

i always felt a bit sea sick first overnight race of the spring season, nerves..

Edited April 2 by LadyG

[Naughty Cal]

If you want a boat to use in Europe then buy it over there. Removes a lot of the paperwork hassle from the equation.

[Onewheeler]

Much tighter regulations on fire extinguisher services and lifejackets being in date. You'll need an ICC with CEVNI, or the French equivalent which was fairly recently introduced. We have been checked at a French lock, also for current insurance. Almost certainly easier to buy a boat there: the Netherlands may be cheaper than France. You also need to work out how to empty the black water tank (if you're not pumping it over the side): pumpout facilities in France are very, very rare.

[mrsmelly]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

Suffering from seasickness, like Nelson?

Rare.

We used to pick up a crew of mostly 12 lads on a Friday night, every week. This would be repeated several times every summer.

They would be excited.

They would be given some tea and a loaf of bread, butter in a tub and two packs of cheese slices!

They were shown all the kit, all the safety drills, things that should interest them, these were lads who had had a tough upbringing. Used to taking orders from adults, and they had volunteered, for most it was a skive, for some an adventure. Responsibility was not something they had ever had!

The mate (aged 58) briefed them, told them the Skipper was planning the course and would be coming to give them a pep talk. They knew the score, expecting some father figure.

When the skipper arrived he made his presence felt. He was about aged 21!, wore fairly drab clothes , in fact he looked like their older brotner, and now he was going to take them out to sea, at midnight! Christ!

They were put to work,  they did not sit watching the horizon going up ... down,,,, up,,, down ... up... down...

Keep taking the tablets LadyG 😜 

[GUMPY]

7 minutes ago, Onewheeler said:

Much tighter regulations on fire extinguisher services and lifejackets being in date. You'll need an ICC with CEVNI, or the French equivalent which was fairly recently introduced. We have been checked at a French lock, also for current insurance. Almost certainly easier to buy a boat there: the Netherlands may be cheaper than France. You also need to work out how to empty the black water tank (if you're not pumping it over the side): pumpout facilities in France are very, very rare.

Did you sell yours?

[Tam & Di]

2 hours ago, rogher said:

The boat is a Piper 55 with paperwork but no VAT as it's rated as a 'qualifying ship'

 

I have no nautical qualifications of significance (yet)

 

If you are serious you should definitely join the DBA as already advised - you will find the answers to all the questions you have asked on there, plus all those you should have asked - not only re the boat and boating but also life in general - phone and computer use, mooring facilities, the best bank cards, bureaucratic requirements for yourself and the boat etc etc.. You need to start by thinking in metres rather than feet, but your Piper 55 is less than the 20m where many of the more onerous regulations kick in.

 

Although commercial freight by water is much less than it used to be, there is still a lot in northern France, Germany, Holland etc with vessel of up to 2000+tonnes, and you do need to know what you are doing. The highway code for boating throughout continental Europe is governed by the CEVNI Rules, and you will definitely need to have an ICC (international certificate of competence) with CEVNI endorsement. You can get that at Bisham Abbey on the Thames - you'd need to study my RYA Book of European Waterway Regulations for the CEVNI test. They also do training for the mandatory VHF User's certificate that you will need.

 

The boating is definitely more interesting there (to my mind, anyway) as is the wine in France and beer in Belgium   😄

 

 

Edited April 2 by Tam & Di

[Onewheeler]

4 hours ago, GUMPY said:

Did you sell yours?

 

Still open to offers! Haven't advertised over the winter (but did have an interesting exchange with a French scammer) but it's time to wake up!

[GUMPY]

54 minutes ago, Onewheeler said:

 

Still open to offers! Haven't advertised over the winter (but did have an interesting exchange with a French scammer) but it's time to wake up!

Just in case the OP decides he wants one that is already resident there. 

[Phoenix_V]

L'heritage is a very nice boat but may be a little small for your needs.

This is on the Duck may be easier than buying in UK if you intend the boat to stay https://barges.apolloduck.fr/boat/piper-55-db-for-sale/823447

Boats brought over from the UK staying more than 18 months will need to pay vat at the current rate in the country of entry there is no 0% rate anywhere  in the EU.

I f you dont want to sail  a yacht transporter will take her, not all have big enough trailers but I think CPL would have you can crane in at Dunkirk, Nieuwpoort or Diksmuide.

The boat must be ssr registered (if you are a UK resident if you are not going to be living in the UK then locally registered) and have relevant safety equipment depending on local regs also an ATIS  enabled VHF. You will need and icc   and vhf operators certificate from your country of residence and the radio itself a licence from the country of registration.

Do join the DBA maybe also the Cruising Association and the French ANPEI

Let us know how you get on

[Tam & Di]

30 minutes ago, Phoenix_V said:

L'heritage is a very nice boat but may be a little small for your needs.

Size is not a significant factor, but a Category C boat is designed for recreational use in coastal waters, rivers and lakes, and wave heights to 2m.  L'heritage did cross the channel when it was brought to our yard at Adelaide Dock for conversion, but on an extremely quiet day with no chance of 2m waves. It obviously did then return, but again only in ideal weather conditions.

 

Edited April 3 by Tam & Di

[Bee]

Don't be put off by what might sound like an insurmountable heap of regulations. Yes, there are all sorts of official issues and brexit has certainly not helped but there are many Piper boats over there and they seem to be untroubled. I would advise joining the DBA for advice but also Pipers themselves, I think they operate from St John de Losne so they ought to have some real world knowlege too. Bee has been in Europe for about 15 years and we have only been asked for paperwork and so on once. Belgium is a bit more officious and Holland can be as well but France is fine. We would have a problem if we wanted to return Bee to the UK. Stupid Brexit.

[ditchcrawler]

A Cigar in Belgium: Journeys of a Narrowboat: Amazon.co.uk: Husar, Anne: 9781783061143: Books is an interesting read 

 

Anne Husar and her partner decided to risk it all and take their narrowboat, Wandering Snail, to mainland Europe. There they discovered a very different boating experience to what poor Snail had been used to in the familiar British canals. A Cigar In Belgium is the story of their steep learning curve and an affectionate tale of their growing love for Belgium – its waterways and its people – all told with a wry and gentle humour and based on Anne’s diaries. Illustrated throughout with maps and photos taken from their voyage, this book is a must read for anyone with an interest in boat travel in Europe. This title is distinguished by the fact there are no similar books describing narrowboat travel in Belgium and the growth of interest in the live aboard lifestyle, with its promise of escape from the everyday.

[Alan de Enfield]

53 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

A Cigar in Belgium: Journeys of a Narrowboat: Amazon.co.uk: Husar, Anne: 9781783061143: Books is an interesting read 

 

Anne Husar and her partner decided to risk it all and take their narrowboat, Wandering Snail, to mainland Europe. There they discovered a very different boating experience to what poor Snail had been used to in the familiar British canals. A Cigar In Belgium is the story of their steep learning curve and an affectionate tale of their growing love for Belgium – its waterways and its people – all told with a wry and gentle humour and based on Anne’s diaries. Illustrated throughout with maps and photos taken from their voyage, this book is a must read for anyone with an interest in boat travel in Europe. This title is distinguished by the fact there are no similar books describing narrowboat travel in Belgium and the growth of interest in the live aboard lifestyle, with its promise of escape from the everyday.

 

 

I'm sure it is a good read, but would warn against relying on facts from that time.

 

The problem is, like with many books, that were written 'years ago' (2013)  the EU and the World has changed a great deal since then

The RCD was revised in 2017

Brexit in 2020

We were in the EU in 2013 so we, and our boats, were in the 'single market' we could come and go as we pleased. Now we are a "3rd country" the same as the US or Africa or Australia and we have to abide by the same rules as they do.

 

 

 

Things that were easily done then may be impossible now.

 

Everything making it more difficult for UK citizens to take their boats over the channel, and, live in Europe.

Edited April 3 by Alan de Enfield

[wandering snail]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I'm sure it is a good read, but would warn against relying on facts from that time.

 

The problem is, like with many books, that were written 'years ago' (2013)  the EU and the World has changed a great deal since then

The RCD was revised in 2017

Brexit in 2020

We were in the EU in 2013 so we, and our boats, were in the 'single market' we could come and go as we pleased. Now we are a "3rd country" the same as the US or Africa or Australia and we have to abide by the same rules as they do.

 

 

 

Things that were easily done then may be impossible now.

 

Everything making it more difficult for UK citizens to take their boats over the channel, and, live in Europe.

At the risk of putting people off buying my book, I was about to say the same, adding also that boats 20m and over are now more strictly regulated, (see ES-TRIN regs) with some talk of them being eventually applied to 15m and over boats. We were hoping to get back as Belgian residents to get around the Brexit restrictions but now our old Perkins won't comply over there either. And it used to all be so wonderfully laissez faire, apart from Germany!

[Tam & Di]

The OP hasn't been back since yesterday, but rereading his opening mail I suspect he is saying that the boat he is looking at on the Thames happens to be Category C, not that he is specifically looking for one. That means his market is much wider, but he'd still be well advised to look at boats already on continental waters as they would have all the necessary paperwork. It would also avoid the cross-channel costs - not insignificant even if it is done under its own power.

[rogher]

Thanks for all the information.

I have recently moved to the East Midlands and am exploring the possibilities of putting a wide beam on the Trent. The extra space afforded by such beasts is the main attraction over continuing on a narrowboat. A CatC boat may let me revisit the Broads and Thames before going to Europe. I've done most of the narrow bits but not the Northern rivers, so being restricted from narrow ditches seems to be a reasonable trade-off for the extra width.

The Europe idea is cooling now. I've joined the DBA and am absorbing information from there (it's keeping me rather busy). Not being fond of rules and regulations, I'm happy to stick with what I'm familiar with for the time being. More distant adventures may wait while I exhaust UK opportunities. Overland would appear to be the quickest and easiest means of transfer. Coastal visits rely on unpredictable fair weather. OK for a brief encounter but I'd rather be exploring than sitting tight and waiting.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, rogher said:

I have recently moved to the East Midlands and am exploring the possibilities of putting a wide beam on the Trent.

 

Are you planning on having a mooring somewhere on the Trent, or CCing ?

 

Outside of 'permanent moorings' the 'visitors moorings are limited to 48 hours.

Having spent many years on the Trent, it is not advisable to rely on being able to moor in the /winter - the water can rise very fast, and if you are 'tied up to a tree overnight' you can lose the boat.

 

 

The river is 'huge' and the currents can get very strong and it has been known for 'canal boats' to not have sufficient power to stem the current.

 

There have been several instances of boats being swept over the weirs

 Aboat was bought into our marina in Newark in a state of 'dissaray'.

 

Inexperienced boaters came out onto the Trent from Nottingham, they were not aware of the currents and ended up sideways against the big oranage "dolphins', as the boat started to roll over the skipper wife fell overboard - he grabbed her hand and then had a dilemma - did he let go of her and let her go over the weir, or keep the engine going and try to steer but risk chopping her up in the Propellor. He let go of her.

 

The boat rolled under the dolphins, he was swept off the boat. 

 

Long story short - both of the survived and C&RT came ad towed the boat into our Marina.

 

The owner came to the marina to get some personal stuff off the boat and all we got from them was "it wasn't our fault - surely someone has responsibilty to warn or stop boaters going on the river"

 

Another boat on the weir :

 

Rescued off a widebeam.

 

 

These are not everyday events but the 3 quoted above were within a 5 year period whilst we were moored in Newark

 

If you are planning to use the Trent - GET A MOORING in a Marina so you have a safe haven in the Winter (or Summer) floods.

 

If you want to read up a bit more .............

 

https://www.airbornesappers.org.uk/cromwelllock.html

 

10 soldiers died as they went over the weir.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rogher]

Thanks for the warning. I plan to use Sawley Marina and am aware that the Trent can be 'unfriendly'.