Please advise on buying a boat privately without a broker!

[DayDreamCanals]

Hi all,

 

I am really hoping I can tap into the vast experience of this forum and gain some insight/advice...

I am in the process of looking to buy a boat that is from a private seller, not via a broker.

I was told in the past (by a broker), that I would be crazy to even consider buying a boat unless it was through a broker - biased maybe?

I understand the need of independent out of water surveys etc but is a genuine question as this is all new to me, was the broker right or are there certain steps I can take to make sure the purchase is safe?

 

Many thanks in advance :)

 

[Tony Brooks]

7 minutes ago, DayDreamCanals said:

Hi all,

 

I am really hoping I can tap into the vast experience of this forum and gain some insight/advice...

I am in the process of looking to buy a boat that is from a private seller, not via a broker.

I was told in the past (by a broker), that I would be crazy to even consider buying a boat unless it was through a broker - biased maybe?

I understand the need of independent out of water surveys etc but is a genuine question as this is all new to me, was the broker right or are there certain steps I can take to make sure the purchase is safe?

 

Many thanks in advance

 

 

Nothing can make the purchase 100% safe. Using a broker MIGHT make it safer than buying privately via (say) ApoloDuck, and far safer than certain online marketplaces, but it can never be totally safe.

 

You need to see a good trail of past bills for mooring fees, licences, repairs and maintenance, preferably with the vendors name and address clearly shown, but even then that is not 100% safe. they could have been stolen along with the boat. Ask to see proof if identity like a photo driving licence and photograph it and the vendor..

[David Mack]

And be aware that buying from a broker is not 100% safe either.

[Alan de Enfield]

A broker can do nothing that you cannot do (for example - they do not have any access to boat ownership documents) They simply add another link in the buying chain and there have been cases where the broker does a runner (or goes bust) and your money is gone. - both are not unknown.

 

A broker is under no legal requirement to inform you about any defects - they are acting on behalf of the seller.

 

As listed above, look for evidence that the boat belongs to the seller, and the seller is the owner, compare driving licence with the names and address on any boat documents.

 

The term Caveat Emptor was written to describe buying a boat.

 

 

What Does Caveat Emptor Mean?

Caveat emptor, a Latin phrase meaning "let the buyer beware," implies that buyers take the risk in a transaction. Potential buyers are warned by the phrase to do their research and ask pointed questions of the seller. The seller isn't responsible for problems that the buyer encounters with the product after the sale.

Edited March 11 by Alan de Enfield

[MrsM]

If it is any reassurance we bought and sold our narrowboat privately and the process was smooth and easy in both cases. Follow the good advice given above and do your homework with care - ie checking all documentation (bills of sale, receipts, safety certificate, owner ID etc), having an out of water survey, taking the boat out for a decent run before committing and so on. Also make sure that the RCR/D paperwork is all present and correct if the boat was built after the required date (1998?). I would not hesitate to buy privately when we are ready for our next boat. Feel free to share a link to the boat here and members can advise on whether there is anything specific you should be alert to.

[Lady M]

Do make sure you get a clear receipt for your money as this will help you prove ownership when the time comes to sell.

[DayDreamCanals]

 

27 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

A broker can do nothing that you cannot do (for example - they do not have any access to boat ownership documents) They simply add another link in the buying chain and there have been cases where the broker does a runner (or goes bust) and your money is gone. - both are not unknown.

 

A broker is under no legal requirement to inform you about any defects - they are acting on behalf of the seller.

 

As listed above, look for evidence that the boat belongs to the seller, and the seller is the owner, compare driving licence with the names and address on any boat documents.

 

The term Caveat Emptor was written to describe buying a boat.

 

 

What Does Caveat Emptor Mean?

Caveat emptor, a Latin phrase meaning "let the buyer beware," implies that buyers take the risk in a transaction. Potential buyers are warned by the phrase to do their research and ask pointed questions of the seller. The seller isn't responsible for problems that the buyer encounters with the product after the sale.

 

Thank you all for the responses that is great advice. 

 

Everything seems legitimate in the form of it not being stolen boat (although I will check the above thoroughly). 

 

Is there such a thing as a "transfer of ownership" like there would be on a car, or some other form of specific bill of sale that makes the purchaser the official new owner?

 

Or is it simply transfer the money, there's the keys and good luck without any contract or anything official?

[mrsmelly]

The broker is talking testicles. Its as easy as buying a car or a kettle if you want it to be. In fact less paperwork than buying a car usualy. 

[LadyG]

24 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

The broker is talking testicles. Its as easy as buying a car or a kettle if you want it to be. In fact less paperwork than buying a car usualy. 

The problem is that the OP seems to be a complete novice  He should really spend enough time on research to find a suitable boat. Then a suitable surveyor, then make a decision.

Some brokers handle any boat. Some are more selective. Avoid the one who told him this twaddle 

 

Find out who owns the boat.

Spend time on here searching. This is a regular Question.

Edited March 11 by LadyG

[David Mack]

39 minutes ago, DayDreamCanals said:

 

Is there such a thing as a "transfer of ownership" like there would be on a car, or some other form of specific bill of sale that makes the purchaser the official new owner?

There are standard 'Bills of Sale' which record the relevant details and agreement of buyer and seller. They have been referenced on the forum before, but from memory I think you can find examples on the MCA (Marine and Coastguard Agency) and RYA websites.

The vendor should be able to produce the Bill of Sale from when he bought the boat.

 

There is no official register of boat ownership like you have for a house or car.

[Tony Brooks]

7 minutes ago, David Mack said:

There are standard 'Bills of Sale' which record the relevant details and agreement of buyer and seller. They have been referenced on the forum before, but from memory I think you can find examples on the MCA (Marine and Coastguard Agency) and RYA websites.

The vendor should be able to produce the Bill of Sale from when he bought the boat.

 

There is no official register of boat ownership like you have for a house or car.

 

For inland boats 100% correct, but other types of craft MGHT be a UK registered ship or more likely on the UK Small Ships Register, but that is as close as you can get to official documentation of ownership. At one time if you wanted a marine mortgage it had to be properly registered.

Edited March 11 by Tony Brooks

[mrsmelly]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

There are standard 'Bills of Sale' which record the relevant details and agreement of buyer and seller. They have been referenced on the forum before, but from memory I think you can find examples on the MCA (Marine and Coastguard Agency) and RYA websites.

The vendor should be able to produce the Bill of Sale from when he bought the boat.

 

There is no official register of boat ownership like you have for a house or car.

I agree but have to say that at least two of my boats have been bought with cash and a handshake and no paperwork whatsoever, not even a bit of paper. I think a lot depends on your personal take on risk and how good you are at summing people up when you meet them.

[Arthur Marshall]

All I've got is a tatty receipt typed by the seller which we forgot to date. As there's no description of the boat and the name was different, I'm not very sure what it proves! There were no other documents.

[LadyG]

10 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

All I've got is a tatty receipt typed by the seller which we forgot to date. As there's no description of the boat and the name was different, I'm not very sure what it proves! There were no other documents.

You've had the boat for years, you have many receipts. You have probably paid many times the purchase price in bills. Its your boat now!

OP should use the search facility, where every posible question has been answered, particularly those that he has not asked.

Edited March 11 by LadyG

[Speedwheel]

14 hours ago, David Mack said:

There is no official register of boat ownership like you have for a house or car.

 

Technically, there isn't for cars either. 

 

A DVLA V5 only shows the "registered keeper" i.e. the person responsible for tax, insurance etc. It is not proof of ownership and the vehicle owner can be (and particularly in the case of fleet vehicles, often is) a different person or entity. 

Edited March 12 by Speedwheel

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, Speedwheel said:

 

Technically, there isn't for cars either. 

 

A DVLA V5 only shows the "registered keeper" i.e. the person responsible for tax, insurance etc. It is not proof of ownership and the vehicle owner can be (and particularly in the case of fleet vehicles, often is) a different person or entity. 

 

or even a finance/lease company.

[LadyG]

15 hours ago, Lady M said:

Do make sure you get a clear receipt for your money as this will help you prove ownership when the time comes to sell.

A Bill of Sale  is a declaration that there is a change of ownership without encumbrances.  It it is not likely that any finance is attached to a boat of this type, but you might as well have it signed and delivered. 

I arranged with my bank to have a large sum transferred via Internet. So I owned the boat immediately. I ran a test £1.xx to his account and asked him how much he recieved.  I also got the Bill of Sale witnessed, there was an owners agent on the day, not the owner. I insisted on both their full names and adresses, plus my signature and my witness. 

You can ask the owner for photo of his driving licence, no reason he should object, though  they may think all this is overkill. Google his details.

I had most of the paperwork scanned and sent to me before I went to look, as it was a long journey.

Bill of Sale is not mandatory, I would guess plenty of boats have been sold with or without even a receipt.

Cash nowadays flags up money laundering, so banks will probably not hand out large amounts.

I was asked by one ' boat owner' to put my deposit money in an unrelated account, could well have been a scam.

 

Edited March 12 by LadyG

[roland elsdon]

£20000  in carrier bag and the warranty runs out at the first lock. That was one purchase i recall.

Another was £9000 at the midland bank in long eaton in return for the keys. ( in 1981).

The last was £ 7000 this month and £2000 post dated cheque. We will drop you off at Rugby station while we boat our new boat past.

No transaction went wrong , but there used to be trust.

[Lady M]

Sadly nowadays we learn of occasional instances where a boat is sold on by someone who did not own it.  If the real owner cannot clearly prove that the boat belongs to them, it can create problems.  Boats cost more too now.  My other tip is for purchasers.  If you have a survey, do ask the surveyor to measure the length and width of the boat and record it in the survey.  

[LadyG]

50 minutes ago, Lady M said:

Sadly nowadays we learn of occasional instances where a boat is sold on by someone who did not own it.  If the real owner cannot clearly prove that the boat belongs to them, it can create problems.  Boats cost more too now.  My other tip is for purchasers.  If you have a survey, do ask the surveyor to measure the length and width of the boat and record it in the survey.  

The surveyor can also be asked to value it, though i expect this is discretionary, or verbal.  By the time you have got to this stage you have probably agreed on a price, but any serious fault, which is then discovered, of say 5% of the total price, you should probably re-negotiate.

16 hours ago, David Mack said:

And be aware that buying from a broker is not 100% safe either.

Some brokers own thei boat but may not make this clear. You are in trade descriptions  territory, 'fit for purpose'

PS the owner will likely know the boat better than the broker, but the owner cannot cope with endless queries from tyre kickers, or just does not have any time to show folks round, may be abroad, may live far from boat. 

Good boats are available from brokers and privately, you just have to keep looking, narrowing down your requirements, and finding one in budget.

Avoid a project, but if you have the time and the inlination you could take on something that just needs a tidy up.

Edited March 12 by LadyG

[ditchcrawler]

This is one of the things you need to watch for on ebay, the boat he is selling a Liverpool he calls Firefly but look at the photos https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/227253037854?

 

Then look at this video 

 

[MrsM]

24 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

This is one of the things you need to watch for on ebay, the boat he is selling a Liverpool he calls Firefly but look at the photos https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/227253037854?

 

Then look at this video 

 

Bloody hell there are some scumbags around. There are already 8 bids on the eBay ad. I've reported this to eBay. Well spotted. 

[ditchcrawler]

28 minutes ago, MrsM said:

Bloody hell there are some scumbags around. There are already 8 bids on the eBay ad. I've reported this to eBay. Well spotted. 

I didn't spot it, it was pointed out to me

[MrsM]

https://aqueductmarina.co.uk/second-hand-boats/capercaillie/

This is the link to the boat in the scam eBay advert. It was sold last year apparently.

[ditchcrawler]

8 hours ago, MrsM said:

https://aqueductmarina.co.uk/second-hand-boats/capercaillie/

This is the link to the boat in the scam eBay advert. It was sold last year apparently.

That was what the youtube was