Slowly sinking new boater seeks emergency GRP repair advice

[Wafi]

11 minutes ago, Chris Yearsley said:

For the in-water patch repair, and also the dry full rebuild of the damage, these guys are very friendly and helpful, I just need to find a way to get it dry somewhere for them to work on. Probably not cheap but I'm beyond being fussy and I think this is a problem that needs good, then quick, as the priorities. https://wrcomposites.co.uk/repairs-and-modifications/

Someone with the expertise to do the repairs and modifications on that website should be a safe bet for a proper long-term repair; most of those jobs are quite a lot more technically demanding than yours.

[ditchcrawler]

46 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I once did a temporary repair from the inside with the boat in the water on a leaking steel dinghy with old pieces of carpet smothered with polyurethane based sealant and then pushed against the hole with plywood behind and a stick jammed against the ply to keep the pressure on it.

 

There are some good PU sealants available from Screwfix and Toolstation: Stixall, CT-1, Sticks like Sh*t, OB-1, etc, etc. I think they can all be stuck to wet surfaces and can cure underwater, but check the product specs. These will be much easier to use than stiff epoxy putty or the West System epoxy resin.

Expanding foam works quite well. Mr Frost got a boat all the way to the top of Bucky using it 

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Expanding foam works quite well. Mr Frost got a boat all the way to the top of Bucky using it 

 

Having now seen the pictures I reckon expanding foam would have enough pressure to push the transom off.

[ditchcrawler]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Having now seen the pictures I reckon expanding foam would have enough pressure to push the transom off.

I wasn't consider spraying into an enclosed void, but on the leaks like he did on this, he had a case of them

[agg221]

55 minutes ago, Chris Yearsley said:

Then we can sail Very Carefully to.... a place I've not worked out yet that can get it out of the water.

Did you try Caggy's yard? It's 8 miles from the centre of Birmingham, so once you have got up the locks if worst comes to worst you could pull it that far by hand. They definitely have a drydock and, given how many boats are on the side, they may well have a crane. It is also conveniently placed for the main railway line into Birmingham.

Another option to try is Longwood Boat Club. It's a bit close to where you are at the moment (about 8 miles). I'm not sure what they have available, but they may well be able to help. Getting to and from it may not be so straightforward other than by boat/car.

 

When it comes to proper repairs, you might find this series of videos useful. You can probably skip a fair amount of it, but bear in mind this is an amateur with no previous experience, so it is about where you would be starting from.

 

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLa9px3O5n5hA7Q1iCKEfMGaBP5qbRRtRl

 

I can empathise with how bad this currently seems. It is certainly a significant set-back, but it can be repaired if you decide you want to. If at all possible, I would go down the DIY route (take advice from the person making the temporary repair as they will have seen it first hand). Apart from the cost savings, the big advantage is that once you/your daughter have done this, the next problem won't seem so severe. I'm not trivializing the situation, but equally, if you can do it properly, even if it doesn't look pretty, then there is a significant sense of achievement which is not all about the cash savings.

 

Alec

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Chris Yearsley said:

I'd not thought of that. It's an (Enfield?) outdrive ("Z drive"?). I was wondering how we could have caused so much damage when pulling away from the bank, without noticing it. And the damage goes high up. I wasn't on the boat much on the voyage as I worked all the locks and often got off at narrow bridges to help push away in case my daughter's rather uncertain steering caused issues. She did say that at one point the boat seemed to hit something underwater, hard, but keep going. And there's certainly an old repair inside that corner - so it's weaker than it was designed to be. 

 

The pictures below show the (lower part of) the damage now, amd how much better the boat looked when my daughter bought it. She has been tremendously upset thinking it's all her fault, but if the boat had a weak repair, and then the outdrive hit something, then could it just be tremendous bad luck? I thought I'd read that the outdrive was supposed to kick up if it hit an obstruction, but it's very old and if it's corroded maybe it doesn't move like it should?

 

It leaks much more when the engine is running. Even with a patch repair I don't want to take it far at all.  Caggys yard is 9 miles, if they get back to me with the ability to help that would be best. For the in-water patch repair, and also the dry full rebuild of the damage, these guys are very friendly and helpful, I just need to find a way to get it dry somewhere for them to work on. Probably not cheap but I'm beyond being fussy and I think this is a problem that needs good, then quick, as the priorities. https://wrcomposites.co.uk/repairs-and-modifications/

 

 

1. I don't think the damage is anything to do with you. I think the reason the boat looked so well is that it had been bodged with some kind of filler, possibly ordinary car body filler, that has now fallen out. A large chunk of something bodgy seems to be missing now.

 

If the outdrive did hit something in ahead than that could cause the bodge to fall out, I don't think there was ever sufficient preparation before bodging.

 

2. I think that every time you go between ahead and astern that corner of the transom will wave about and as engines vibrate I am not surprised it leaks more when the engine is running. My view is, in view of the depth and extent of the damage, that none of the adhesive and filler/putty type suggestions will work.

 

3. It looks to me as if there was an attempted glass repair on the inside of the hull, but not very well done because it seems to radiused, instead of a pretty tight right angle, and it looks as if the glass mat was never properly wetted out with resin.

 

4. If you do decide to re[air it yourself I think the inner glass bodge needs to be cut off, and possibly metal angles bolted across the gap inside to give the repair some mechanical strength. Possibly three about 2 to 3 inches wide. Then glass over the whole lot on the inside with several layers of mat. hen cured that should stabilise the area so you can grind chamfers on the rough edges of the crack so you can push more well wetted mat into the gap and over the chamfers to give it a larger "gripping area". Then smooth and apply epoxy filler or gel coat. It will be the inside glassing that gives it strength so put the glass mat over at least a foot either side of the crack - more gripping area!

 

Having written all that I suspect the least cost and probably the best option is to scrap it, if the engine is any good you MIGHT get it done for free, but expect to pay, get quotes

 

 

 

Edited March 2 by Tony Brooks

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Chris Yearsley said:

I thought I'd read that the outdrive was supposed to kick up if it hit an obstruction, but it's very old and if it's corroded maybe it doesn't move like it should?

Yes. Outdrives can be set to do that. But the downside is that every time you put the gearbox into reverse the leg will rise up out of the water rather than applying reverse thrust, which isn't what you want with normal canal boating. The boat may well have been fitted with a locking rod, to hold the leg down, which you would normally operate only when deliberately engaging reverse, but on an older boat like this it is more than likely that the locking rod no longer operates correctly, or the leg has been fixed in the down position.

 

1 hour ago, Chris Yearsley said:

in case my daughter's rather uncertain steering caused issues.

 

1 hour ago, Chris Yearsley said:

She has been tremendously upset thinking it's all her fault,

She shouldn't beat herself up over this. We were all beginners once, and we all have stories of mistakes we have made, especially as newbies. Most people find wheel steered craft like this much harder to steer than tiller-steered narrowboats, especially when you are steering from inside a cockpit amidships, and can't see what the back end is doing. And square transom sterns are always less forgiving than more rounded forms.

The second photo shows that the internal structure of the corner is in pretty poor condition, so it won't have taken much of an impact to cause the increased damage between the two pictures, especially with vibration from the engine/outdrive.

1 hour ago, Chris Yearsley said:

 https://wrcomposites.co.uk/repairs-and-modifications/

They look ideal, and they are not that far away. The work on their website looks expensive, but they may be willing to do a sound structural repair, but with a level of finish that matches the rest of your daughter's boat for a more reasonable cost.

I imagine they can give you a better price if you can get the boat to their premises to work on. And once you have the boat out of the water, the cost of transport isn't going to vary that much with distance. Someone often recommended here for transporting boats of this type is Tony Tugboats. Haven't used him personally, but @Naughty Cal should be able to give a reference.

In your position I might be minded not to bother with a temporary repair. Just get the boat as quickly as possible to somewhere you can get it out, whether that be Debbie's Dayboats, Hockley Port (if you can find a current contact) or Caggy's, (bailing furiously all the way), then get the boat lifted out and away for repair.

And finally, I'm too far away, but if you need help with crewing, ask on here, and someone local may well be willing to help out.

Good luck!

[Laurie Booth]

6 hours ago, nicknorman said:

 

I note that the Sherborne Wharf website is dead. Not sure why.

Sorry if I put up a misleading post. Shocked by the news about it.

 

[Mike Todd]

52 minutes ago, Laurie Booth said:

Sorry if I put up a misleading post. Shocked by the news about it.

 

Do we know what has happened?

[Francis Herne]

3 hours ago, agg221 said:

Another option to try is Longwood Boat Club. It's a bit close to where you are at the moment (about 8 miles). I'm not sure what they have available, but they may well be able to help

I don't think Longwood have any facilities to dock or lift boats.

 

I wouldn't assume that Sherborne's website being down means anything. The business has been notoriously awkward to communicate with for years, they just don't seem to care.

 

Two friends moor on Sherborne Wharf and I've not heard of any changes.

[blackrose]

5 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

I fear some suggestions may not produce a repair of sufficient structural strength, although most would probably provide a temporary fix. 

 

I thought a temporary fix is what the OP had asked for and was what we were talking about? With the best will in the world you're not going to achieve a permanent structural repair with the boat in the water.

 

Although your post is well meaning, I think you've failed to appreciate the practicalities of the situation that the OP is in. What people are suggesting are simply quick, temporary methods to prevent the boat from sinking. Once it's been taken out of the water then perhaps it can be structurally repaired. 

[Tony Brooks]

8 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

I thought a temporary fix is what the OP had asked for and was what we were talking about? With the best will in the world you're not going to achieve a permanent structural repair with the boat in the water.

 

Although your post is well meaning, I think you've failed to appreciate the practicalities of the situation that the OP is in. What people are suggesting are simply quick, temporary methods to prevent the boat from sinking. Once it's been taken out of the water then perhaps it can be structurally repaired. 

 

I fully appreciate the OP's difficulties, but unless they tow or bow haul it to wherever they can get it out of the water I don't think you and some others appreciate the forces on the transom caused by an outdrive in use. I also suspect that the end of the transom at the damage probably moves relative to the hull side when being driven, hence the previous "repair" falling out and the leak being worse when the engine is running. Even steering forces from the outdrive will exert sideways forces on the damage.

 

My last post was to try to show the OP what will need to be done to effect a more permanent repair. To be honest I suspect the best way may be to fit a bilge pump and press on or just keep bailing. The last thing they need is the application of any sort of "glue" that could contaminate the area unless it will be compatible with new GRP work - even though a lot of cutting back seems to be required.

[Stroudwater1]

 

@nicknorman there is a culvert that’s a planned repair just past Fazeley Junction on the Coventry canal. Being fixed and dewatered at some point since  the notice sihttps://canalrivertrust.org.uk/notices/0197bdb6-fdc1-7305-b3a1-541d9759bd82

 

I had thought it’s the  Glascote Tamworth way from Frazeley but it looks like the  Fradley way so Streethay is out. Though it sounds like it’s being sorted the Birmingham direction. Is there a slipway at the Tamworth  boat club by Glascote locks? Probably there’s one in Glascote basin too.
 

Another possibility Birmingham direction would be the slipway at Hawne basin maybe but is that only for members too? 

[blackrose]

7 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I fully appreciate the OP's difficulties, but unless they tow or bow haul it to wherever they can get it out of the water I don't think you and some others appreciate the forces on the transom caused by an outdrive in use. I also suspect that the end of the transom at the damage probably moves relative to the hull side when being driven, hence the previous "repair" falling out and the leak being worse when the engine is running. Even steering forces from the outdrive will exert sideways forces on the damage.

 

My last post was to try to show the OP what will need to be done to effect a more permanent repair. To be honest I suspect the best way may be to fit a bilge pump and press on or just keep bailing. The last thing they need is the application of any sort of "glue" that could contaminate the area unless it will be compatible with new GRP work - even though a lot of cutting back seems to be required.

 

I can't speak for others, but I fully appreciate the forces on the transom caused by an outdrive in use. I was simply offering advice which might stop the boat from sinking in the immediate short term. How it then gets to a dry dock for a permanent repair is secondary. Contamination of the GRP is unimportant in the scheme of things and as you say, that area will need to be sanded or cut back anyway. I'm sure advice for a permanent repair will be welcomed by the OP after they stop the boat from sinking.  

[PaulJ]

11 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

I can't speak for others, but I fully appreciate the forces on the transom caused by an outdrive in use. I was simply offering advice which might stop the boat from sinking in the immediate short term. How it then gets to a dry dock for a permanent repair is secondary. Contamination of the GRP is unimportant in the scheme of things and as you say, that area will need to be sanded or cut back anyway. I'm sure advice for a permanent repair will be welcomed by the OP after they stop the boat from sinking.  

Nicely said..

Ive repaired transoms and retro fitted a Mercruiser Alpha1 Outdrive in a previous life too although avoided GRPs after that part of my work life. Be glad its not an old Volvo- they used to hang the whole weight of the engine off the outdrive/transom too!

Little confused on comments about the inside as I couldnt see any pic of the inside though.

Having seen the picture I would imagine the transom will need cutting out and repaired properly- the core will be probably be mush now. There will be vids up on YouTube which will give OP some idea of whats involved and how its all made..

[Tony Brooks]

28 minutes ago, PaulJ said:

Little confused on comments about the inside as I couldnt see any pic of the inside though.

 

If you look into the crack, just above the side rubbing band level, you can see what looks to me like part of a roll of glass mat, I don't think it is a roll, I  suspect it is a previous internal repair that has not been forced fully into the corner of the hull. To me, it also looks as if the visible area had not been fully soaked/mashed with the resin. That in itself could allow water to pass through the new layup. The OP also mentioned that there are sings of an internal repair.

 

Here: 

 

 

I agree the transom may be rotten inside if it has a core of some sort meaning the whole lot may need replacing, as you say, but if that is the case I doubt it makes any sense to pay to get it done. So DIY or scrap it. If they do decide to DIY it, then making the best of a bad job and not taking the transom out, is likely to be good enough for a few years.

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, Stroudwater1 said:

 

@nicknorman there is a culvert that’s a planned repair just past Fazeley Junction on the Coventry canal. Being fixed and dewatered at some point since  the notice sihttps://canalrivertrust.org.uk/notices/0197bdb6-fdc1-7305-b3a1-541d9759bd82

 

I had thought it’s the  Glascote Tamworth way from Frazeley but it looks like the  Fradley way so Streethay is out. Though it sounds like it’s being sorted the Birmingham direction. Is there a slipway at the Tamworth  boat club by Glascote locks? Probably there’s one in Glascote basin too.
 

Another possibility Birmingham direction would be the slipway at Hawne basin maybe but is that only for members too? 

I think the OP said they were already at Star City Birmingham.

 

[PaulJ]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

If you look into the crack, just above the side rubbing band level, you can see what looks to me like part of a roll of glass mat, I don't think it is a roll, I  suspect it is a previous internal repair that has not been forced fully into the corner of the hull. To me, it also looks as if the visible area had not been fully soaked/mashed with the resin. That in itself could allow water to pass through the new layup. The OP also mentioned that there are sings of an internal repair.

 

Here: 

 

Ah yes.Thanks. Totally misunderstood.

I took it all as inside the boat and not inside the crack 😀

Which is why I rarely post-Im (probably) better with my hands than my brain..

 

[carlt]

P38 to fix the hole and a strip of aluminium angle bar to strengthen the transom corner.

 

Matching strip of aluminium on the other side to make it look pretty.

 

Anything more than that would probably cost more than the boat's value.

[Tony Brooks]

32 minutes ago, carlt said:

P38 to fix the hole and a strip of aluminium angle bar to strengthen the transom corner.

 

Matching strip of aluminium on the other side to make it look pretty.

 

Anything more than that would probably cost more than the boat's value.

 

and if bolted through both angles would serve to reinforce the joint as well, but I fear the inside won't have a large radius, making fitting the length of angle difficult. The outside one may need cutting on one side so it can bend around the "chine" area.

1 hour ago, PaulJ said:

Ah yes.Thanks. Totally misunderstood.

I took it all as inside the boat and not inside the crack 😀

Which is why I rarely post-Im (probably) better with my hands than my brain..

 

 

The other thing we do not know is how far below the waterline that crack runs, I fear it may be a fair way along the bottom, caused by that outer corner flexing as it as/is not properly secured. It has to come out of the water, and it should be liftable onto a truck equiped with a Hiab anywhere the truck can get sound ground close to the canal. But that in itself is going to cost, probably over a grand seeing prices quoted here.

[Cheese]

If running the engine gives significant water ingress, or even worse shows signs of the crack extending, then bow haul it. A 27ft GRP boat shoildn't be too difficult. You just need to know where to head for.

Edited March 3 by Cheese
spellung

[Wafi]

For a temporary fix I'd be more inclined to put a couple of horizontal steel straps around the corner, through-bolted with big washers on the inside; that should provide a bit more strength. Fill the gap with an underwater-compatible Sikaflex; a more rigid filler will just fall out when the joint inevitably moves. If there's access, maybe even consider bonding a plywood web onto the inside of the corner with epoxy.

 

(I originally wrote stainless steel, but galvanised will be fine for a temporary repair, and can be found in large DIY stores).

 

I wouldn't worry too much about Sikaflex in the gap compromising a longer-term repair; that'll all have to be ground out anyway. One of the things that often surprises people who haven't worked with fibreglass is that repairing a small hole generally starts with making it into a much bigger hole. You have to remove all the damaged material, and you often end up removing further undamaged material to scarf in the repair. The good news is that a properly-executed repair should be as strong as the original structure.

[Alan de Enfield]

40 minutes ago, Wafi said:

For a temporary fix I'd be more inclined to put a couple of horizontal steel straps around the corner, through-bolted with big washers on the inside;

 

My suggestion was going to be pretty similar, except using ratchet straps. Attach the buckle to the hull (say) 12"- 15" forward and bolt thru. Attach the strap "tail" to the transom and bolt thru, Fill the crack with some form of sealer, put strap thru the ratchet and tighten it up it'll hold it together until you get somehere suitable for a lift out.

 

You could even use 2 ratchet straps (one set lower than the other) if needed.

[PaulJ]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

The other thing we do not know is how far below the waterline that crack runs, I fear it may be a fair way along the bottom, caused by that outer corner flexing as it as/is not properly secured. It has to come out of the water, and it should be liftable onto a truck equiped with a Hiab anywhere the truck can get sound ground close to the canal. But that in itself is going to cost, probably over a grand seeing prices quoted here.

Its all guesswork.

My guess would be that at least some of the leak is actually coming through the (outdrive) transom plate especially when under load.

IF its as mushy as I would guess it is then there is nothing keeping the transom rigid- effectively its two layers of GRP with some sponge in between. No way of keeping that sealed..

Feel sorry fpr the OP anyhow and wish them luck.

 

Edited March 3 by PaulJ

[Tony Brooks]

11 minutes ago, PaulJ said:

Feel sorry fpr the OP anyhow and wish them luck.

 

 

So do I, it upsets me when I see what looks like a deliberate rip-off.