Lithium batteries

[Memories]

54 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

This is not at attack on you, but in this thread you seem to be posting and implying misinformation. Li batteries will outlast LAs many times. They charge far faster at any given charging current because they do not gradually reduce the charging current like LAs do, and perhaps more importantly, do not suffer anything like the LA's sulphation and also have many, many times higher cyclic life. I don't think anyone knows just how long LFP batteries last in boat use unless there is a charging fault like that dayboat, but then an LA battery would have done similar.

 

All you are suggesting here is that the OP buys a LI battery in a fancy case and charges that. It will have very limited capacity compared with a proper Li domestic battery installation.

 

I don't think you views on LA V Li pollution stand up to scrutiny because of the very long life and falling cost of Li batteries.

 

I strongly suspect that you are in a very small minority with your ideas about boat batteries, as illustrated by the way the "quality" boat you bought has batteries all over the pace in a very non-typical way.

 

 

I wouldn't be comfortable having batter stations or whatever all over the boat, it is going to be a battery swap or no action at all depending on my face to face conversations about.it.

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

This is not at attack on you, but in this thread you seem to be posting and implying misinformation. Li batteries will outlast LAs many times. They charge far faster at any given charging current because they do not gradually reduce the charging current like LAs do, and perhaps more importantly, do not suffer anything like the LA's sulphation and also have many, many times higher cyclic life. I don't think anyone knows just how long LFP batteries last in boat use unless there is a charging fault like that dayboat, but then an LA battery would have done similar.

 

All you are suggesting here is that the OP buys a LI battery in a fancy case and charges that. It will have very limited capacity compared with a proper Li domestic battery installation.

 

I don't think you views on LA V Li pollution stand up to scrutiny because of the very long life and falling cost of Li batteries.

 

I strongly suspect that you are in a very small minority with your ideas about boat batteries, as illustrated by the way the "quality" boat you bought has batteries all over the pace in a very non-typical way.

 

 

Nope I am not against Li, not at all, what I am against is OP spending £7000 if this is not necessary! 

If OP is looking at several years on board and a really reliable set up then a good Li system is a no brainer provided she is on board long enough to get some payback. 

However OP said she is on shorepower, and I would think that buying electricity from the supplier would be cheaper than generating your own, though I don't suppose many boats are like mine, with both  12v and  mains wiring!.

I raised the point about saving the planet because many people put this forward as the main benefit, and I pointed out a few arguments.. this is a discussion forum.....

Its coming up for summer, so there is probably no urgency as solar will likely keep things going, even if batteries are near end of life (though should they be?).

OK a lot depends on individual cases:

Usage : demand and pattern 

Expense, and avaliable finance 

Finding an experienced fitter

A boat which is going to be used as a liveaboard and not on regular shorepower then Li is probably a no brainer if practical.

Anyone who is in a marina and on shorepower most of the winter probably does not need to spend money on changing their system, those who do may be technology enthusiasts or heavy users who work on board and need more power than the average liveaboard. 

 

 

Edited March 1 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, Memories said:

I wouldn't be comfortable having batter stations or whatever all over the boat, it is going to be a battery swap or no action at all depending on my face to face conversations about.it.

 

I never thought that you would. In my view (others available) LadyG's views may not always reflect reality which I illustrated using the battery positioning on her boat - and the rudder falling off. Not a quality boat in my view, even if it has a quality hull.

[Memories]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

@Memories Note the copied reconfiguration of the BMV and the fact that the state of charge data such gauges give you is also available from the BMS that Jen has.

 

You may want to know what the knees are that Jen talks about, I will try to explain.

 

Unlike LA batteries Li batteries hold an almost constant voltage over virtually all their USABLE charge and discharge cycles, but when nearly fully charged the voltage rises rapidly, this is the upper knees and it more or less tells you it is time to stop charging, with a caveat or two related to cell balancing which, at this time and possibly never, you need to worry about. If charging is not stopped at or close to the upper knee then battery degradation speeds up.

 

The lower knee is similar but under discharge when the voltage suddenly starts falling rapidly. However, the BMS inside most batteries or as a separate unit should disconnect the discharge at that point.

 

At this time you don't need to concern yourself about it.

 

True, but the more the OP can get his head around the complications before he talks to Gary, the more he is likely to take in from Gary and not get his eyes glazing over and going into yes, yes, yes mode. I would suggest the talk about knees illustrates the point, I doubt the OP had any concept of what it meant or its importance. It also seems that he has little concept of battery capacity and its importance to what he wants to achieve.

I can categorically state that I DO NOT have a charge indicator on the boat, the only way I know the charge level is through the Victron app on my phone, and that has proved numerous times to be inaccurate 

[LadyG]

36 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I never thought that you would. In my view (others available) LadyG's views may not always reflect reality which I illustrated using the battery positioning on her boat - and the rudder falling off. Not a quality boat in my view, even if it has a quality hull.

@Tony Brooks Im sure OP is not interested in the fit out of my boat, its irrelevant, and i am not responsible for it, however it does now work, old school style, though i still have to generate power when the sun does not shine sufficiently. 

I think OP has a petrol generator, (which I would not have on my boat ), so the batteries can be charged this way if shorepower, or the engine alternator or the solar panels are not providing sufficient power.

I am all for new technology.

Flooded Lead Acid batteries are slow to charge and need to be frequently monitored and managed. Li are quick to charge, but still need to be managed, whether by technology or by the boater.

I comes down to cost. For me, replacing the batteries every 6 to 8 years might be £600-800,   installing a Li system would be complex, and the main benefit would be less running of the engine in winter.

Gary / other experts are not readily available, which would be a major consideration if I expected to cc for another five years, but I dont.

Edited March 1 by LadyG

[Memories]

20 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I never thought that you would. In my view (others available) LadyG's views may not always reflect reality which I illustrated using the battery positioning on her boat - and the rudder falling off. Not a quality boat in my view, even if it has a quality hull.

I have arranged a call with Gary for tomorrow he is also going to pop around and tell me what's involved and how much he will charge to do it. He seems to think it isn't a straight forward swap.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

16 minutes ago, Memories said:

I can categorically state that I DO NOT have a charge indicator on the boat, the only way I know the charge level is through the Victron app on my phone, and that has proved numerous times to be inaccurate 

The Victron app is getting the charge level from hardware somewhere. You may well have a smartshunt installed close to your leisure batts. It talks to the app via bluetooth. 

https://www.victronenergy.com/battery-monitors/smart-battery-shunt

[Memories]

5 minutes ago, LadyG said:

@Tony Brooks Im sure OP is not interested in the fit out of my boat, its irrelevant, and i am not responsible for it, however it does now work, old school style, though i have to generate power when the sun does not shine sufficiently.

I think OP has a petrol generator, (which I would not have on my boat ), so the batteries can be charged this way if the engine alternator or the solar are not providing sufficient power 

I am all for new technology,  Lead Acid batteries are slow to charge and need to be frequently monitored and managed. Li are quick to charge, but still need to be managed, whether by technology or by the boater.

I don't really care what anyone's boat is like other than my own. It is my home and I want it to be as efficient and self sufficient as I can within the budgetary constraints I have.

 

The person I bought the boat off ripped me off, I have found all sorts of niggly little things that have ended up costing me money, the solar set up has to improve whether that is new batteries or a reconfiguration or both it has to be done.

My fear of electric has held me back so far but I can not continue living this way, I simply do not have faith in the batteries, the sun is out today, I am not using solar I am leaving it to charge the batteries while I use shore power to run the appliances, simply because I can not trust the charge level as indicated in the app.

[Memories]

2 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

The Victron app is getting the charge level from hardware somewhere. You may well have a smartshunt installed close to your leisure batts. It talks to the app via bluetooth. 

https://www.victronenergy.com/battery-monitors/smart-battery-shunt

I do have a smart shunt, it comes up on the app, it's just I think it isn't so smart.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

6 minutes ago, Memories said:

I do have a smart shunt, it comes up on the app, it's just I think it isn't so smart.

They are all like that. It is a well known problem with getting an indication of state of charge with Lead acid batteries. Reliability goes down with time since the last reset and as batts age and their overall capacity declines. They are much more reliable when connected to Lithium batts. 

[LadyG]

PS.  I have an LED indicator which tells me the  voltage and also the charging voltage of one of my leisure  battery banks. The resting voltage can be read at night when no solar or engine is charging the battery. 

Most boats have a bank of the domestic aka leisure batteries, perhaps 2 or 3 x 110 amp hour batteries, these provide 12v to lighting etc. 

There will also be a starter battery, it should be isolated from the domestics so that it is always able to start the engine.

Im very sorry you have been misled when you bought the boat, its sickening, however, you will eventually get to grips with your electrics, even if it means paying for someone knowledgeable to fix it.

Things may not be as bad as you fear, boat electrics are a bit of a black art to the average person, so please dont think you are the only one

 

Edited March 1 by LadyG

[cheesegas]

27 minutes ago, LadyG said:

However OP said she is on shorepower, and I would think that buying electricity from the supplier would be cheaper than generating your own, though I don't suppose many boats are like mine, with both  12v and  mains wiring!

Most boats are wired for mains and 12v - the round pin 5 amp plugs being used for 12v next to the mains sockets are pretty common, especially on older boats. 

 

Buying electricity from your supplier is cheaper in winter, but in summer it's not - a 1kw solar array will provide all the power the average boater needs from March til mid Nov. With lithium battery, for a good few of those months you'll be able to use electric cooking appliances too.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

.............though I don't suppose many boats are like mine, with both  12v and  mains wiring!

 

I think this need correcting before the OP gets worried or confused.

 

I'd suggest that probably 999 out of 1000 canal boats have both 12v and 230v mains wiring

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Memories said:

I have arranged a call with Gary for tomorrow he is also going to pop around and tell me what's involved and how much he will charge to do it. He seems to think it isn't a straight forward swap.

 

As long as you go for the B2B route I think he is right, swap thw batteries, fit the B2B if what you have is not suitable and a tiny bit of rewirirng.

1 hour ago, Memories said:

I do have a smart shunt, it comes up on the app, it's just I think it isn't so smart.

Not with LAs, but much smarter when/if you go to Lis because Lis are far more predictable with their charge efficiency and don't continually loose capacity like LAs do.

 

If the smart shunt has user set parameters, and the user understands its foibles, it can be made smarter for LA batteries, but as I understand things your app is just the display device a bit like a BMV

[Memories]

1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

They are all like that. It is a well known problem with getting an indication of state of charge with Lead acid batteries. Reliability goes down with time since the last reset and as batts age and their overall capacity declines. They are much more reliable when connected to Lithium batts. 

The more I read the more I'm informed the more I think I am making the right choice to go for a swap out 

[Memories]

58 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

As long as you go for the B2B route I think he is right, swap thw batteries, fit the B2B if what you have is not suitable and a tiny bit of rewirirng.

Not with LAs, but much smarter when/if you go to Lis because Lis are far more predictable with their charge efficiency and don't continually loose capacity like LAs do.

 

If the smart shunt has user set parameters, and the user understands its foibles, it can be made smarter for LA batteries, but as I understand things your app is just the display device a bit like a BMV

I can reset stuff through the app, it's all Bluetooth connected 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

58 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

If the smart shunt has user set parameters, and the user understands its foibles, it can be made smarter for LA batteries, but as I understand things your app is just the display device a bit like a BMV

The smartshunt essentially uses the phone and app as a replacement for the display and incorporates the electronics for configuration and working out the sums on the shunt itself, plus Bluetooth. The app is used to interrogate the shunt, change the config and display the results. Does all the things that the 700 series can do, but needs a phone, or other display that you provide. 

[Tony Brooks]

6 minutes ago, Memories said:

The more I read the more I'm informed the more I think I am making the right choice to go for a swap out 

 

If you had asked me only a very few years ago I would have said no, don't do it yet, the technology is still too new and not well enough understood by the majority of electricians working on the canals, but now that Victron seem to have produced all the pieces you need to make up a good reliable system, I would say it is a no-brainer. Just knowing that the BMS will prevent you wrecking your batteries is reason in itself before we start thinking about the fast recharging and how long the batteries will last. 

[Memories]

14 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

If you had asked me only a very few years ago I would have said no, don't do it yet, the technology is still too new and not well enough understood by the majority of electricians working on the canals, but now that Victron seem to have produced all the pieces you need to make up a good reliable system, I would say it is a no-brainer. Just knowing that the BMS will prevent you wrecking your batteries is reason in itself before we start thinking about the fast recharging and how long the batteries will last. 

Yes I get that

[Memories]

20 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

You are right on at least two counts, but I would ask for recommendations for who to employ, there are some not so competent marine electricians in respect of Li systems.

 

The LI batteries will charge far faster than any Li setup so in summer a decent solar setup can have them fully charged by mid-morning. They don't sulphate and are far more tolerant of deep cycling so you can sue more of their rated capacity and leave them partially charged with no, or little, downside.

 

 

Here are the pictures I said I would take

[Memories]

18 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

You should know the voltage and capacity of your existing system, if you have 24 volts or are using 6v batteries then it gets a tiny bit more complicated, but you need the same nominal voltage as the existing system, and if you get the same total capacity it will be more than adequate, possibly rather more than you actually need, but that just means you can go longer between recharging.

 

If you don't know the battery capacity post a photo of them so we can work out how they are connected together (series, parallel or series parallel), you don't need to worry about that, we will tell you, and if you read the capacity in Amp hour (Ah) on the labels we can tell you the total capacity. 

 

My advice is to look for what is known as "drop in" 12V lithium batteries, rather than individual cells. I get the impression that Frogstar batteries seem to have a fair name on the forum, unless you want to pay for Victron.

I posted the pics, hope they help, I have four not three leisure batteries and the starter which I believe is the black one.

[ditchcrawler]

18 minutes ago, Memories said:

I posted the pics, hope they help, I have four not three leisure batteries and the starter which I believe is the black one.

There is definitely some work needing doing there.

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, Memories said:

I posted the pics, hope they help, I have four not three leisure batteries and the starter which I believe is the black one.

 

apart from the mess of spaghetti, just thought to mention that unless you can find a way of restraining those batteries you will get a BSS fail.

 

 

 

 

Also, unless the batteries are normally covered by a 'lid' then you will have another failure of the BSS as the terminals are not covered.

 

 

Edited March 1 by Alan de Enfield

[Tony Brooks]

14 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

There is definitely some work needing doing there.

 

Yes, look at that earth bolt ready to punch/abrade a hole in one battery.

[Alan de Enfield]

48 minutes ago, Memories said:

Here are the pictures I said I would take

 

Having studied the pictures - in that area alone there is a lot of work to be done.

 

Its pretty simple work but you will need :

1) to know what you are doing,

2) have read the installation regulations (BSS)

3) and follow those rules.

 

If you are either not prepared to do that, or don't feel capable, then you will need to get the sparky who is doing you LI installation to completely re-do the engine bay.