Lithium batteries

[Memories]

Has anyone swapped out their lead oxide batteries for lithium?

 

If so, is it a straight swap?

 

Can I replace the starter battery for the engine as well as the leisure batteries?

 

Will it have a negative impact on my solar installation?

 

Would I need extra kit?

 

I have a 4k inverter I think that would be adequate but open to correction.

 

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

13 minutes ago, Memories said:

Has anyone swapped out their lead oxide batteries for lithium?

Yes. Did it last summer. 

 

13 minutes ago, Memories said:

f so, is it a straight swap?

No. You need to know what you are doing. If you are on shore power most of the time and mainly cruise in the summer, then there is little to no point.

 

13 minutes ago, Memories said:

Can I replace the starter battery for the engine as well as the leisure batteries?

There is no point in replacing the starter with Li.

 

13 minutes ago, Memories said:

Will it have a negative impact on my solar installation?

Depends what sort of solar controller you have. Make/model. Recent ones from a major maker will have algorithm for Li batteries, but need to be set to that in the configuration. Same with any mains batt charger. 

 

13 minutes ago, Memories said:

Would I need extra kit?

Probably yes. At a minimum a battery to battery controller for chsrging the Li from the engine and stop the alternator overheating and dying.

 

13 minutes ago, Memories said:

have a 4k inverter I think that would be adequate but open to correction

Make/model. 

 

Lots of threads on here about lithium batt installation and the perils and pitfalls. 

[Tony Brooks]

The inverter has nothing to do with batteries, apart from potentially wrecking them and LFP lithiums are less likely to get wrecked than lead acids.

 

Unless you want a lot more expense relating to new high power alternators and such like most people seem to keep an LA start battery fed from the largest alternator and then use a programmable battery to battery charger to battery charger (B2B).  The Li batteries MUST have some form of BMS, to protect them, but this is usually built into the "drop in" batteries.

 

All charge sources feed the start battery unless any f them have a Li setting, then they can connect to the Li.

 

The reason for doing it this way is, that as Lis take as much charge as you can throw at them for a long time, until the BMS shuts off the charge on being fully charged, is to prevent the long high charging current burning out the alternator, and the fact that if you open circuit a charging alternator there is a possibility that the result voltage surge will burn out the alternator electronics and possibly some boat equipment.

 

The high charge that Lis are happy to accept makes them ideal for solar charging, making use of all the solar output until you or the BMS terminates charging.

 

 

[Memories]

6 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Yes. Did it last summer. 

 

No. You need to know what you are doing. If you are on shore power most of the time and mainly cruise in the summer, then there is little to no point.

 

There is no point in replacing the starter with Li.

 

Depends what sort of solar controller you have. Make/model. Recent ones from a major maker will have algorithm for Li batteries, but need to be set to that in the configuration. Same with any mains batt charger. 

 

Probably yes. At a minimum a battery to battery controller for chsrging the Li from the engine and stop the alternator overheating and dying.

 

Make/model. 

 

Lots of threads on here about lithium batt installation and the perils and pitfalls. 

My solar system charge controller and inverter are all victron.

 

I wouldn't dare do this myself I have no clue, so would get a marine sparky to do it, there is a guy I have used before and he has a good reputation.

 

Although I am hooked up to shore power at the moment, my intention is to try to be as self sufficient as I possibly can.

 

I may well be wrong here but my thoughts are that with the lithium I will be in a better position to do this.

 

If I am wrong please tell me so.

 

As I say, I don't have a clue.

 

I am just trying to be as self sufficient as I can. Not relying on shore power as much as I do now seems to be the way forward and lithium batteries seem to be the way to go with that.

 

I was told it is pointless getting extra solar panels with the batteries I currently have as they wouldn't be able to handle the amount of energy storage where as lithium would be able to handle it.

 

Again, if I am wrong feel absolutely free to tell me so.

[Memories]

9 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

The inverter has nothing to do with batteries, apart from potentially wrecking them and LFP lithiums are less likely to get wrecked than lead acids.

 

Unless you want a lot more expense relating to new high power alternators and such like most people seem to keep an LA start battery fed from the largest alternator and then use a programmable battery to battery charger to battery charger (B2B).  The Li batteries MUST have some form of BMS, to protect them, but this is usually built into the "drop in" batteries.

 

All charge sources feed the start battery unless any f them have a Li setting, then they can connect to the Li.

 

The reason for doing it this way is, that as Lis take as much charge as you can throw at them for a long time, until the BMS shuts off the charge on being fully charged, is to prevent the long high charging current burning out the alternator, and the fact that if you open circuit a charging alternator there is a possibility that the result voltage surge will burn out the alternator electronics and possibly some boat equipment.

 

The high charge that Lis are happy to accept makes them ideal for solar charging, making use of all the solar output until you or the BMS terminates charging.

 

 

Not being funny or argumentative Tony, but the abbreviations you use in your post mean not one thing to me.

 

As I say, I have no clue at all on this subject but feel that I need the lithium batteries to help in my self sufficiency.

 

If not then ok.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Shore power is cheaper and more convenient. Yiu won't make back the money in saved electricity bill. Only worth doing if you are going somewhere without shore power. Either another mooring, or continuous cruising. 

[Tony Brooks]

5 minutes ago, Memories said:

I may well be wrong here but my thoughts are that with the lithium I will be in a better position to do this.

 

You are right on at least two counts, but I would ask for recommendations for who to employ, there are some not so competent marine electricians in respect of Li systems.

 

The LI batteries will charge far faster than any Li setup so in summer a decent solar setup can have them fully charged by mid-morning. They don't sulphate and are far more tolerant of deep cycling so you can sue more of their rated capacity and leave them partially charged with no, or little, downside.

 

 

[Memories]

3 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Shore power is cheaper and more convenient. Yiu won't make back the money in saved electricity bill. Only worth doing if you are going somewhere without shore power. Either another mooring, or continuous cruising. 

I am wanting to cruise for most of the year and return to base in November ISH.

I will always be on the boat, meaning I won't be mooring the boat and leaving it over winter, my boat is all I have, no other sort of accommodation.

[nicknorman]

10 minutes ago, Memories said:

Not being funny or argumentative Tony, but the abbreviations you use in your post mean not one thing to me.

 

As I say, I have no clue at all on this subject but feel that I need the lithium batteries to help in my self sufficiency.

 

If not then ok.

LFP = Lithium Ferro-Phosphate - the particular lithium battery chemistry suited to boats (there are lots of other lithium battery chemistries) also written as LiFePO4

LA = Lead Acid, ie  conventional batteries

Li = Lithium

BMS = BatteryManagement System. Often built into Li batteries but anyway a necessity to protect the Li cells from over-charge, over-discharge or over or under temperature.

 

Lithium batteries are great because they can be charged at a high rate right up until they are virtually full, can be discharged to nearly empty without any degradation, and can be left in a partial state of charge for long periods without any degradation.

 

Of course ultimately they don’t “make” electricity, you still have to put back the electricity you take out, but they are a much easier and more efficient way of storing electricity compared to LA. But at a cost and some complexity, because they have different charging requirement from LA, and so putting Lithium batteries in a system designed to charge LA can be problematic. The charging apparatus has to be modified or adapted for Li.

 

Edited February 28 by nicknorman

[Tony Brooks]

4 minutes ago, Memories said:

Not being funny or argumentative Tony, but the abbreviations you use in your post mean not one thing to me.

 

As I say, I have no clue at all on this subject but feel that I need the lithium batteries to help in my self sufficiency.

 

If not then ok.

 

LFP - a particular Lithium battery chemistry that is inherently safe - far safer than many electric car batteries.  Often shown as LiFePo4 (I bet the upper and lower cases are wrong in some places).

 

Li = Lithium batteries

LA = Lead acid batteries such as you plan to replace. 

 

B2B explained in text.

 

 

[David Mack]

44 minutes ago, Memories said:

Has anyone swapped out their lead oxide batteries for lithium?

I presume you mean lead acid batteries, not lead oxide.

8 minutes ago, Memories said:

Not being funny or argumentative Tony, but the abbreviations you use in your post mean not one thing to me.

The abbreviations Tony has used are all standard for the subject matter. You need to educate yourself on the subject before you dive in. Plenty of threads on here covering the subject.

[Memories]

4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

You are right on at least two counts, but I would ask for recommendations for who to employ, there are some not so competent marine electricians in respect of Li systems.

 

The LI batteries will charge far faster than any Li setup so in summer a decent solar setup can have them fully charged by mid-morning. They don't sulphate and are far more tolerant of deep cycling so you can sue more of their rated capacity and leave them partially charged with no, or little, downside.

 

 

So.

What I take from what I have from Jen and yourself so far is that I will not make money back through not using shore power, but I will be able to be far more self sufficient than I currently am.

 

But don't just go for the marine electrician I have dealt with this far, do a bit of research into it as far as an installer goes.

 

I currently have 4 solar panels which I believe are 700w each, again not certain as they were on when I bought the boat, I also have a small trickle charge panel for the starter battery.

 

IF and it is possibly a big if, those wattages are correct, would I also need more efficient and larger output panels?

[Memories]

10 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

LFP = Lithium Ferro-Phosphate - the particular lithium battery chemistry suited to boats (there are lots of other lithium battery chemistries) also written as LiFePO4

LA = Lead Acid, ie  conventional batteries

Li = Lithium

BMS = BatteryManagement System. Often built into Li batteries but anyway a necessity to protect the Li cells from over-charge, over-discharge or over or under temperature.

 

Lithium batteries are great because they can be charged at a high rate right up until they are virtually full, can be discharged to nearly empty without any degradation, and can be left in a partial state of charge for long periods without any degradation.

 

Of course ultimately they don’t “make” electricity, you still have to put back the electricity you take out, but they are a much easier and more efficient way of storing electricity compared to LA. But at a cost and some complexity, because they have different charging requirement from LA, and so putting Lithium batteries in a system designed to charge LA can be problematic. The charging apparatus has to be modified or adapted for Li.

 

Thanks for that.

 

Sheds more light on the abbreviations.

 

 

[Memories]

9 minutes ago, David Mack said:

I presume you mean lead acid batteries, not lead oxide.

The abbreviations Tony has used are all standard for the subject matter. You need to educate yourself on the subject before you dive in. Plenty of threads on here covering the subject.

I stand corrected on the battery I did mean lead acid.

[Memories]

18 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

LFP = Lithium Ferro-Phosphate - the particular lithium battery chemistry suited to boats (there are lots of other lithium battery chemistries) also written as LiFePO4

LA = Lead Acid, ie  conventional batteries

Li = Lithium

BMS = BatteryManagement System. Often built into Li batteries but anyway a necessity to protect the Li cells from over-charge, over-discharge or over or under temperature.

 

Lithium batteries are great because they can be charged at a high rate right up until they are virtually full, can be discharged to nearly empty without any degradation, and can be left in a partial state of charge for long periods without any degradation.

 

Of course ultimately they don’t “make” electricity, you still have to put back the electricity you take out, but they are a much easier and more efficient way of storing electricity compared to LA. But at a cost and some complexity, because they have different charging requirement from LA, and so putting Lithium batteries in a system designed to charge LA can be problematic. The charging apparatus has to be modified or adapted for Li.

 

Is it then the case that should I proceed with this idea, I have to ensure the batteries I purchased are LFP?

 

I do have solar currently, it is a victron system. May need a bit of upgrading, that is something I will have to look at.

 

I have about 7k for the total thing, so I think the budget is ok, it's just the best way to go and I need a little bit of direction on that

[Memories]

25 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

LFP - a particular Lithium battery chemistry that is inherently safe - far safer than many electric car batteries.  Often shown as LiFePo4 (I bet the upper and lower cases are wrong in some places).

 

Li = Lithium batteries

LA = Lead acid batteries such as you plan to replace. 

 

B2B explained in text.

 

 

Noted, thank you.

[Memories]

1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Yes. Did it last summer. 

 

No. You need to know what you are doing. If you are on shore power most of the time and mainly cruise in the summer, then there is little to no point.

 

There is no point in replacing the starter with Li.

 

Depends what sort of solar controller you have. Make/model. Recent ones from a major maker will have algorithm for Li batteries, but need to be set to that in the configuration. Same with any mains batt charger. 

 

Probably yes. At a minimum a battery to battery controller for chsrging the Li from the engine and stop the alternator overheating and dying.

 

Make/model. 

 

Lots of threads on here about lithium batt installation and the perils and pitfalls. 

I posted a question earlier to you Jen,, not sure if you got it, a lot still need reviewing.

 

Basically I asked.

Given that you did this conversation recently and without being too personal and asking how much you spent doing it, would you say that a budget of 7k would cover it?

[Jen-in-Wellies]

2 minutes ago, Memories said:

I posted a question earlier to you Jen,, not sure if you got it, a lot still need reviewing.

 

Basically I asked.

Given that you did this conversation recently and without being too personal and asking how much you spent doing it, would you say that a budget of 7k would cover it?

I DIY'd mine, so my budget wouldn't help. I don't know what a professional install would cost. 

[Cheshire cat]

TLAs are one of life's bains. OK if you already know the language but generally opaque to outsiders and an excellent way of maintaining the situation. 

[nicknorman]

38 minutes ago, Memories said:

Is it then the case that should I proceed with this idea, I have to ensure the batteries I purchased are LFP?

 

I do have solar currently, it is a victron system. May need a bit of upgrading, that is something I will have to look at.

 

I have about 7k for the total thing, so I think the budget is ok, it's just the best way to go and I need a little bit of direction on that

Yes you need to ensure that any batteries you get installed at LFP. The reason being that they are very difficult to set on fire. Unlike some other Li chemistries that eg might have come from a scrap electric car, such as Lithium Colbalt Oxide which is quite unstable and somewhat prone to self-combusting!
 

Solar charging is not a problem, almost certainly a Victron solar controller can be used to charge Li batteries with just a minor configuration change. The difficulty arises with charging Li batteries from an alternator, that is where significant modifications are usually needed.

 

I would just sound a note of caution that lithium battery installation is still a relatively novel thing. There will be lots of “marine electricians” out there who have no idea. And let us remember that someone setting themselves up as a “marine electrician” needs have absolutely no qualifications, experience or competence. Caveat emptor.

 

If you are looking for a competent person I would recommend Ed Shiers of Four Counties Marine, based in Staffordshire. But having a good reputation also means he probably has a long waiting list.

Edited February 28 by nicknorman

[LadyG]

13 hours ago, Memories said:

Not being funny or argumentative Tony, but the abbreviations you use in your post mean not one thing to me.

 

As I say, I have no clue at all on this subject but feel that I need the lithium batteries to help in my self sufficiency.

 

If not then ok.

 Most people start off thinking they can reduce their impact on the environment by using solar panels and call it off grid living.

If you watch the guys on YouTube living in a cabin in Canada, and other places where there is no mains electricity they all have diesel generators and diesel cars, large battery banks and probably a few oil lamps and torches.

In the UK it must be almost impossible, to live comfortably without using fossil fuel. There is not enough sunshine all year round.

The average boater can buy solar panels, they are subject to the law of diminishing returns, so it soon becomes impractical or too expensive to have enough panels on your boat to provide for all your demands. In winter there are many days when there is no significant sunshine.

Flooded Lead Acid batteries (need to be frequently topped up with distilled water),  Absorbent Glass Mat batteries or your Lithium (Li) Phosphate (PO4?) batteries and others use the planet's resources to be manufactured and transported, so it will take years to pay back.

There are a few boats which have been designed as electric boats, the roof will be covered in panels, the leisure batteries  will likely be Lithium which charge faster and are more efficient. The engine is likely to be hybrid, ie there is a diesel powered generator back up

If I decided to change my batteries to LFP,   i reckon i might save about 100 hours of running my diesel engine per year, saving £70 in fuel and £30 in engine wear, but I'm not going to argue my case on this, I'm sure others will disagree, they always do  .

 

 

 

Edited March 1 by LadyG

[Memories]

23 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Yes you need to ensure that any batteries you get installed at LFP. The reason being that they are very difficult to set on fire. Unlike some other Li chemistries that eg might have come from a scrap electric car, such as Lithium Colbalt Oxide which is quite unstable and somewhat prone to self-combusting!
 

Solar charging is not a problem, almost certainly a Victron solar controller can be used to charge Li batteries with just a minor configuration change. The difficulty arises with charging Li batteries from an alternator, that is where significant modifications are usually needed.

 

I would just sound a note of caution that lithium battery installation is still a relatively novel thing. There will be lots of “marine electricians” out there who have no idea. And let us remember that someone setting themselves up as a “marine electrician” needs have absolutely no qualifications, experience or competence. Caveat emptor.

 

If you are looking for a competent person I would recommend Ed Shiers of Four Counties Marine, based in Staffordshire. But having a good reputation also means he probably has a long waiting list.

Very helpful thanks 

[Memories]

33 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

I DIY'd mine, so my budget wouldn't help. I don't know what a professional install would cost. 

Fair enough....fancy doing mine...lol

[Memories]

8 minutes ago, LadyG said:

 Most people start off thinking they can reduce their impact on the environment by using solar panels and call it off grid living.

If you watch the guys on YouTube living in a cabin in Canada, and other places where there is no mains electricity they all have diesel generators and diesel cars, large battery banks and probably a few oil lamps and torches.

In the UK it must be almost impossible, to live comfortably without using fossil fuel. There is not enough sunshine all year round.

The average boater can buy solar panels, they are subject to the law of diminishing returns, so it soon becomes impractical or too expensive to have enough panels on your boat to provide for all your demands. In winter there are many days when there is no significant sunshine.

Flooded Lead Acid batteries (need to be frequently topped up with distilled water),  or your Absorbent Glass Mat batteries or your Lithium (Li) Phosphate (PO4?) batteries and others use the planet's resources to be manufactured and transport, so it will take years to pay back.

There are a few boats which have been designed as electric boats, the roof will be covered in panels, the leisure batteries  will likely be Lithium which charge faster and are more efficient. The engine is likely to be hybrid, ie there is a diesel powered generator back up

 

 

 

Got to be honest here and say that it isn't so much the environment that is driving this desire it is simply that I want to be able to moor up somewhere in the middle of nowhere and be confident that my batteries will see me through.

 

My current batteries are only nearly three years old and cut off at 50% and I need to either start the boat and run it for hours on end or plug in to shore power.

 

I have a small petrol geni too, in case of an absolute emergency where the engine isn't providing enough.

[Tony Brooks]

55 minutes ago, Memories said:

IF and it is possibly a big if, those wattages are correct, would I also need more efficient and larger output panels?

 

700W panels are huge - 1.303m x 2.385m and the first google hit suggests they cost over a grand each, so I am not so sure that is what you have, but perhaps you do. If you do, that is 2800 Watts

 

I am not sure that you grasp that as Lis take all the charge you can throw at them (within reason) however many panels you have will only affect how quickly you can fully charge the batteries and Lis will charge far, far faster than LA batteries. As I said, in summer, the batteries are often fully charged by mid-morning, so many boaters then divert their current to a suitable immersion heater. In winter the solar will get the Li batteries far more fully charged than they would LAs. You need to compromise between the electricity you want to draw from the batteries over a given period (say 1 or 2 days), the battery bank capacity, and the charging current supplied, but as the charging current from solar varies for hour to hour and month by month giving a firm answer is not easy. I think your solar will be perfectly adequate unless you are running a high spec floating cottage with loads of electrical demand.

 

Lithium will take all the charge the solar can supply to them so if you are doing OK with your KA batteries, the Lis will be far better for any given capacity. After half an hour or so LA batteries start reducing the charge they will accept, further and further as time goes on, so after (say) 4 hours the batteries will only accept less than half the current being supplied, and soon it drops to 10 amps or fewer, hence it takes 10 hours+ to fully charge LAs, but lithiums will full charge in a few or very few hours - all dependant upon how the solar panels are performing at that time.

 

As far as Li batteries and solar or a mains charger are concerned they will self limit the current they supply so can't burn out (given adequate design) so will always outperform the same equipment charging LA batteries. You only need to limit the current our typical alternators supply to protect the alternator, but even so the Lis will still fully charge far faster than LAs would on the same alternator and of the same battery capacity.