Victron Inverter no A.C. Output.

[Brian422]

Just returned to boat, which is connected to Shore Power and found no Mains ON l.e.d illuminated.

Left boat as normal with both Mains On l.e.d and Charger Float l.e.d illuminated and Charger Only selected on rocker switch.

There's 240 Volts A C. at input of Inverter but no A.C. at the output.

The Inverter looks inactive (dead).

There is a Fuse F2 but there's no voltage on either side and what I think is a Thermal Trip but pushing it does nothing.

All advice or suggestions gratefully received.

[pearley]

What model and age?

[nicknorman]

So presumably this is a combi inverter charger? What happens if you disconnect the shore power and switch to inverter power, does it work? I am thinking along the lines of the transfer relay having failed - the thing that either passes through incoming shore power to the output and the charger circuitry, or isolates the input when there is no shore power connected. It's something I have heard of happening before and I think it would work in inverter only mode if that were the case.

[robtheplod]

We have a Multiplus II and had this last year... the old switch off and on again sorted it.....

[Brian422]

It's an Victron Phoenix Multplus fitted when boat built in 2009.

Inverter does work.

Transfer relay does sound like a distinct possibility.

Any idea as to where to obtain a circuit diagram and spares.

I've switched it on and off during my investigation.

[nicknorman]

55 minutes ago, Brian422 said:

It's an Victron Phoenix Multplus fitted when boat built in 2009.

Inverter does work.

Transfer relay does sound like a distinct possibility.

Any idea as to where to obtain a circuit diagram and spares.

I've switched it on and off during my investigation.

I think you will be struggling with that. You might get in touch with Sellweb, based in Tamworth, who do repair that kind of thing. https://sellweb.co.uk/services/leisure-inverter-repair/

[blackrose]

Probably nothing to do with your issue, but I tried to help a neighbour once who had no AC from shore power going through his combi. We removed it and he sent it back under warranty to the vendor/Victron for testing. They said it was fault free so we refitted it and it still didn't work. I was out of ideas and the guy had no mains power in his boat for about 3 days (knackered batteries), until I happened to plug a socket tester into my boat and noticed that the marina mains voltage was out of spec. I can't remember what it was but it was enough to shut his combi down. Are any of your neighbours having similar issues?

 

I notified the marina operator and the voltage issue was fixed the next day, at which point my neighbours combi started working again.

Edited February 12 by blackrose

[ditchcrawler]

28 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Probably nothing to do with your issue, but I tried to help a neighbour once who had no AC from shore power going through his combi. We removed it and he sent it back under warranty to the vendor/Victron for testing. They said it was fault free so we refitted it and it still didn't work. I was out of ideas and the guy had no mains power in his boat for about 3 days (knackered batteries), until I happened to plug a socket tester into my boat and noticed that the marina mains voltage was out of spec. I can't remember what it was but it was enough to shut his combi down. Are any of your neighbours having similar issues?

 

I notified the marina operator and the voltage issue was fixed the next day, at which point my neighbours combi started working again.

It doesn't need much. Sometimes just lots of load from other boats on the string 

[Brian422]

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions.

This morning, with shore Power the Mains l.e.d. was off.

Following the suggestion that the issue could be related to Mains supply being outside operating tolerance, decided to use Mains Supply from Travel Pack.

Thankfully the Travel Pack illuminated the Mains l.e.d.

Both Mains supplied from Shoreline and Travel Pack use the same Mains A.C. input to Victron.

No Mains l.e.d illumination from Shoreline but Travel Pack does illuminate Mains l.e.d.

Their are 46 boats on the same Pontoon: it's winter, high demand and a possible loading issue.

Shoreline is currently, no pun intending, providing enough energy to illuminate Mains l.e.d.

Will wait and see with fingers crossed.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Brian422 said:

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions.

This morning, with shore Power the Mains l.e.d. was off.

Following the suggestion that the issue could be related to Mains supply being outside operating tolerance, decided to use Mains Supply from Travel Pack.

Thankfully the Travel Pack illuminated the Mains l.e.d.

Both Mains supplied from Shoreline and Travel Pack use the same Mains A.C. input to Victron.

No Mains l.e.d illumination from Shoreline but Travel Pack does illuminate Mains l.e.d.

Their are 46 boats on the same Pontoon: it's winter, high demand and a possible loading issue.

Shoreline is currently, no pun intending, providing enough energy to illuminate Mains l.e.d.

Will wait and see with fingers crossed.

If you don't have a DMM that can measure things like mains voltage it's worth getting one, they're pretty cheap (less than a tenner on Amazon) -- even a more highly rated one with better resolution and 10A current range and HV detection is less than twenty quid... 😉

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/AstroAI-Multimeter-Auto-Ranging-Resistance-Non-Contact/dp/B08DHHJPS1

 

Also depending on what model it is and how it's programmed, you may be able to lower the minimum acceptable mains input voltage on the Multiplus to try and stop it cutting out when the shoreline voltage drops -- or enable "Weak AC input", see below (though this is mainly intended for generators with poor quality output, not low mains voltage).

 

Exactly what model is it?

Edited February 13 by IanD

[Alway Swilby]

Do you have the means to programme the Multi? On my (not Phoenix) Multiplus there is a "Weak AC input" option which you could tick. It makes the Multi less fussy about the AC mains input.  

[Brian422]

I have a Multimeter. Failing voltage approx 236 Volts A.C.

Victron Phoenix Multplus 12 Volt, 3000 V.A., 120 Amp with VE Bus.

I also have V.E. Bus app and interface but unfortunately I had no previous indication that there might be a problem and, because I'm not a liveaboard didn't bring laptop etc., this time.

Thanks for the hint regarding weak A C. Input; will check.

[IanD]

15 minutes ago, Brian422 said:

I have a Multimeter. Failing voltage approx 236 Volts A.C.

Victron Phoenix Multplus 12 Volt, 3000 V.A., 120 Amp with VE Bus.

I also have V.E. Bus app and interface but unfortunately I had no previous indication that there might be a problem and, because I'm not a liveaboard didn't bring laptop etc., this time.

Thanks for the hint regarding weak A C. Input; will check.

There's no way the Multiplus should be shutting down at such a high voltage, IIRC minimum Vin is set to something like 185V by default. Is there any other way you can check this setting?

 

Weak AC is intended to deal with poor quality generators (not low input voltage shoreline) and has other negative effects -- you could try it but I doubt that it would help.

Edited February 13 by IanD

[jonathanA]

This is why I dislike combis.... they should fail to wire and pass thru should be pass thru but it so often they don't and it isn't....  so you get weird things like this from the 'cleverness' 

[nicknorman]

16 minutes ago, IanD said:

There's no way the Multiplus should be shutting down at such a high voltage, IIRC minimum Vin is set to something like 185V by default. Is there any other way you can check this setting?

 

Weak AC is intended to deal with poor quality generators (not low input voltage shoreline) and has other negative effects -- you could try it but I doubt that it would help.

It looks like the allowable input voltage is adjustable. The minimum "maximum voltage" is 230v so perhaps someone has fiddled with the settings. Worth checking anyway once the OP has the laptop to hand.

15 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

This is why I dislike combis.... they should fail to wire and pass thru should be pass thru but it so often they don't and it isn't....  so you get weird things like this from the 'cleverness' 

 

Have you ever actually had one in use for any length of time? The cleverness is mostly useful. Our one has been in service for 12 years and never put a foot wrong (yes I know it will now proceed to blow up!). The people who fairly regularly try to influence other people on here against Combis, have usually never actually had one.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

21 hours ago, blackrose said:

Probably nothing to do with your issue, but I tried to help a neighbour once who had no AC from shore power going through his combi. We removed it and he sent it back under warranty to the vendor/Victron for testing. They said it was fault free so we refitted it and it still didn't work. I was out of ideas and the guy had no mains power in his boat for about 3 days (knackered batteries), until I happened to plug a socket tester into my boat and noticed that the marina mains voltage was out of spec. I can't remember what it was but it was enough to shut his combi down. Are any of your neighbours having similar issues?

 

I notified the marina operator and the voltage issue was fixed the next day, at which point my neighbours combi started working again.

We had a similar issue at my old mooring. The grid supply was off the top end of the specification. Memory says 265V. The Victron multis on boats nearest the bank (shortest distance) were shutting down as a result. Eventually the grid people came and replaced the transformer on a pole. 

[jonathanA]

8 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

It looks like the allowable input voltage is adjustable. The minimum "maximum voltage" is 230v so perhaps someone has fiddled with the settings. Worth checking anyway once the OP has the laptop to hand.

 

Have you ever actually had one in use for any length of time? The cleverness is mostly useful. Our one has been in service for 12 years and never put a foot wrong (yes I know it will now proceed to blow up!). The people who fairly regularly try to influence other people on here against Combis, have usually never actually had one.

yes I have a sterling combi - which is pretty basic to be fair.  I've replaced a few as well and invariably when they fail (for whatever reason everything goes) - as i say if they failed to wire that would be something and not very hard to do I would suggest.  I'm not an anti combi I like the one i have (not on my boat as it happens) and I like the features many have  but as with anything compromise is needed and  awareness of the pros and cons to allow informed decision making.   

 

I'm sure the OP doesn't want to be booting up laptops, connecting special leads and configuring software just because his mains is suffering from a volt drop under load and he can't get his toaster to work  🙂 (assuming that is the issue).  Although in fairness, the issue may be as you speculate, down to other fingers messing with the cleverness ! 

[nicknorman]

5 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

yes I have a sterling combi - which is pretty basic to be fair.  I've replaced a few as well and invariably when they fail (for whatever reason everything goes) - as i say if they failed to wire that would be something and not very hard to do I would suggest.  I'm not an anti combi I like the one i have (not on my boat as it happens) and I like the features many have  but as with anything compromise is needed and  awareness of the pros and cons to allow informed decision making.   

 

I'm sure the OP doesn't want to be booting up laptops, connecting special leads and configuring software just because his mains is suffering from a volt drop under load and he can't get his toaster to work  🙂 (assuming that is the issue).  Although in fairness, the issue may be as you speculate, down to other fingers messing with the cleverness ! 

I imagine it’s a deliberate design feature to make the transfer relay fail open (ie open when unpowered) otherwise there could be a nasty clash between inverter and mains if it failed closed😱

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Brian422 said:

I have a Multimeter. Failing voltage approx 236 Volts A.C.

Victron Phoenix Multplus 12 Volt, 3000 V.A., 120 Amp with VE Bus.

I also have V.E. Bus app and interface but unfortunately I had no previous indication that there might be a problem and, because I'm not a liveaboard didn't bring laptop etc., this time.

Thanks for the hint regarding weak A C. Input; will check.

That was the input voltag

 

38 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

We had a similar issue at my old mooring. The grid supply was off the top end of the specification. Memory says 265V. The Victron multis on boats nearest the bank (shortest distance) were shutting down as a result. Eventually the grid people came and replaced the transformer on a pole. 

You can go through a lot of filament lamps before you can convince them there is a problem 

[jonathanA]

17 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I imagine it’s a deliberate design feature to make the transfer relay fail open (ie open when unpowered) otherwise there could be a nasty clash between inverter and mains if it failed closed😱

 how so when the mains input is into the combi ?   but i see what your saying i fear we may be straying into the depths of combi design !  lets move on quickly before anyone notices...  🙂