14 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

We are about 2.5 mph on about 8000 miles

 

 

Your average would drop with an EB, you'd need to stop for at least a 'couple' of charge-ups covering that distance

41 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Your average would drop with an EB, you'd need to stop for at least a 'couple' of charge-ups covering that distance

Nah,  you'd just need a longer lead.

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Your average would drop with an EB, you'd need to stop for at least a 'couple' of charge-ups covering that distance

I thought they all ran their engines /generators as they went along or while the dishwasher was running in the evening 😇

39 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Nah,  you'd just need a longer lead.

 

Or have a diesel generator on board. 

 

It does amuse me that people (not all) (and CRT) seem to think an electric boat is super-"Eco" when its still diesel powered.

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Your average would drop with an EB, you'd need to stop for at least a 'couple' of charge-ups covering that distance

I thought they all ran their engines /generators as they went along or while the dishwasher was running in the evening 😇

41 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Or have a diesel generator on board. 

 

It does amuse me that people (not all) (and CRT) seem to think an electric boat is super-"Eco" when its still diesel powered.

It's more eco than a diesel boat (typically about half the CO2 emissions for heavy use, or less in many cases), but that doesn't mean it's zero-emissions -- though it can be if you can get all your power from solar, which most can't especially in winter.

 

Do you really want me to post the long boring figures again which show this? 😉 

 

32 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I thought they all ran their engines /generators as they went along or while the dishwasher was running in the evening 😇

Nah, haven't got one -- anyway, the noise would interfere with watching the big-screen TV... 😉 

Edited February 3Feb 3 by IanD

I wonder what the OP will think if he comes back 

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

Or have a diesel generator on board. 

 

It does amuse me that people (not all) (and CRT) seem to think an electric boat is super-"Eco" when its still diesel powered.

Only “Eco” when the sun’s shining, not so much, if at all between Oct-Apr. Then again if you’re in a Marina most of the year they’re very “Eco” the week or so you’re out during Jun/July/August when the suns out, like last year. But most aren’t really bothered about the Eco side that’s an after thought and it sounds good in conversation. It’s about silent boating.

Edited February 3Feb 3 by BoatingLifeUpNorth2

26 minutes ago, BoatingLifeUpNorth2 said:

Only “Eco” when the sun’s shining, not so much, if at all between Oct-Apr. Then again if you’re in a Marina most of the year they’re very “Eco” the week or so you’re out during Jun/July/August when the suns out, like last year. But most aren’t really bothered about the Eco side that’s an after thought and it sounds good in conversation. It’s about silent boating.

Indeed, if people ask me about the boat I never bring up the "Eco" subject unless they ask -- and then I'm honest about the realities (and costs!) of it as opposed to the rose-tinted glasses that some others wear... 😉 

 

Being able to get HVO would help, just like it would with diesel boats, but that's next to impossible at the moment due to cost and the "chicken and egg" problem -- the IWA SBG is trying to get government involvement to change this but TBH it's an uphill struggle.

Of course like for EVs a system-wide network of charging points would completely change both the economics and the eco rating, but there's no credible plan of how this could be built or paid for so I'm not holding my breath.

 

But in the meantime, (mostly) silent boating is *lovely*... 🙂 

Edited February 3Feb 3 by IanD

18 hours ago, IanD said:

My average since I got the boat (logged over about 600 miles and 500 locks) is 2.54 lock-miles/hour... 😉 

I have yet to find a method of predicting canal journey times to that accuracy!

 

Whilst your average might be 2.54 is is more correct to describe it as, something like, 2.54 +- 0.5 or even better, 2 .5+-0.5 ie between 2 and 3 and use the lower figure for conservative planning or the higher one if you have a high appetite for risk.

I often wondered whether a Stirling engine generator would be a good fit for an electric boat if the right one was manufactured and supported: Relatively quiet, well-suited to constant power output, and you could claim that 100% of your fuel was used for heating 🙂

 

If I was looking for a modern boat and had the cash, I'd certainly be investigating electric boats further.

Just now, Mike Todd said:

I have yet to find a method of predicting canal journey times to that accuracy!

 

Whilst your average might be 2.54 is is more correct to describe it as, something like, 2.54 +- 0.5 or even better, 2 .5+-0.5 ie between 2 and 3 and use the lower figure for conservative planning or the higher one if you have a high appetite for risk.

It wasn't a prediction, it was logged data over all the trips since I got the boat. Obviously speed depends on the journey and boater and other people may get different results, I just posted this because it was very close to the 2.5 estimate in the post I was replying to -- and the one that followed.

 

So 2.5 lock-miles per hour looks like a good general figure to use to guesstimate timings/distances, with the obvious proviso that this can't be taken as an accurate prediction, with a higher answer on deep wide canals/rivers with no locks or if you clog it, and a lower one if the going is difficult or locks are badly maintained or there's a lot of traffic or you're a dawdler.

 

In other words, YMMV... 🙂 

6 minutes ago, Wafi said:

I often wondered whether a Stirling engine generator would be a good fit for an electric boat if the right one was manufactured and supported: Relatively quiet, well-suited to constant power output, and you could claim that 100% of your fuel was used for heating 🙂

 

If I was looking for a modern boat and had the cash, I'd certainly be investigating electric boats further.

 

An interesting thought. The Whispergen is the only small CHP I've ever seen that runs on diesel though. All the others I've ever encountered are gas-fired. 

3 minutes ago, Wafi said:

I often wondered whether a Stirling engine generator would be a good fit for an electric boat if the right one was manufactured and supported: Relatively quiet, well-suited to constant power output, and you could claim that 100% of your fuel was used for heating 🙂

 

If I was looking for a modern boat and had the cash, I'd certainly be investigating electric boats further.

Apart from the cost and complexity and long start-up/shut-down times, the problem with a Stirling engine is that it's good at producing heat but not very good at producing electric power -- if you view it as primarily a heater with some "free" power on the side for battery charging (e.g. on a conventional diesel boat) that's fine, but not so good on a boat with electric propulsion (and probably gas-free so cooking too) where the demand for electrical power is much higher -- and often in summer where the last thing you need is a lot of heat... 😉 

 

I can certainly recommend "going electric" but make sure you go into it with your eyes wide open and using realistic assumptions -- a lot of what is said on the subject is at best over-enthusiastic and at worst just plain wrong, especially assumptions about how much power things generate, how much is really used in, and all the losses getting from one to the other... 🙂 

23 minutes ago, IanD said:

It wasn't a prediction, it was logged data over all the trips since I got the boat. Obviously speed depends on the journey and boater and other people may get different results, I just posted this because it was very close to the 2.5 estimate in the post I was replying to -- and the one that followed.

 

So 2.5 lock-miles per hour looks like a good general figure to use to guesstimate timings/distances, with the obvious proviso that this can't be taken as an accurate prediction, with a higher answer on deep wide canals/rivers with no locks or if you clog it, and a lower one if the going is difficult or locks are badly maintained or there's a lot of traffic or you're a dawdler.

 

In other words, YMMV... 🙂 

And my numbers were over several years including filling with water and diesel and queuing for locks included in the traveling time

21 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

And my numbers were over several years including filling with water and diesel and queuing for locks included in the traveling time

So were mine -- and I'm kind of surprised we agree so closely, given our very different boats and usage and experience... 🙂 

I just looked at our last couple of years data and we were around 3.2 lock\miles per hour.  This is using engine hours so includes all time sat waiting.

Since first introduced to the idea in about 1970, I have never understood why people think the "lock mile" represents a good measure of time needed to navigate any particular stretch.

 

I reckon we can generally do two locks in the same time as we need to travel a mile, (usually even wide ones).

 

Before automated ways of producing estimates were available I generally relied on (locks / 2)+ miles.

Although we did once own one, I never thought much of the Chris Clegg map, which I  believe is based solely on his own records of how long he has taken to complete each stretch.

 

These days CanalPlanAC is surely the only way to go.

2 hours ago, IanD said:

Indeed, if people ask me about the boat I never bring up the "Eco" subject unless they ask -- and then I'm honest about the realities (and costs!) of it as opposed to the rose-tinted glasses that some others wear... 😉 

 

Being able to get HVO would help, just like it would with diesel boats, but that's next to impossible at the moment due to cost and the "chicken and egg" problem -- the IWA SBG is trying to get government involvement to change this but TBH it's an uphill struggle.

Of course like for EVs a system-wide network of charging points would completely change both the economics and the eco rating, but there's no credible plan of how this could be built or paid for so I'm not holding my breath.

 

But in the meantime, (mostly) silent boating is *lovely*... 🙂 

Yes, you give an honest and reality account of electric boating. I’ve met a few of your builders customers who are out CCing and they always say it’s a shock to how much diesel they use and I think surely you must of realised that you don’t get the solar yield through the Autumn & Winter months. 
 It’s like everything when you’re out on the water on the nice sunny days, you forget about the cold rainy days and enjoy it. Sometimes we all wear those Rose tinted glasses.🌹
 

Edited February 3Feb 3 by BoatingLifeUpNorth2

1 minute ago, alan_fincher said:

 

I reckon we can generally do two locks in the same time as we need to travel a mile, (usually even wide ones).

 

Before automated ways of producing estimates were available I generally relied on (locks / 2)+ miles.

I have always done the same. And assuming an average speed of 3 miles or 6 locks per hour, the resulting time estimate is usually fairly close to canalplan's.

25 minutes ago, David Mack said:

I have always done the same. And assuming an average speed of 3 miles or 6 locks per hour, the resulting time estimate is usually fairly close to canalplan's.

Sorry if I wasn't clear -- I take "lock-miles" to be number of miles plus half the number of locks, exactly as @David Mack says... 🙂 

 

Given that I did 613 miles and 498 locks (862 lock-miles) in 336 hours, that comes out at 24mins/mile (2.5mph) and 12mins/lock (5 locks/hour) average -- obviously faster in good conditions... 🙂 

 

Note that most of this was on narrow (and sometimes shallow!) canals in the Midlands and North, probably less than 20% was on wide canals and rivers where speed is higher but locks are usually slower -- and includes a fair bit of passing moored boats as well as the usual waiting for locks and other purposes.

Edited February 3Feb 3 by IanD

2 hours ago, Wafi said:

I often wondered whether a Stirling engine generator would be a good fit for an electric boat if the right one was manufactured and supported: Relatively quiet, well-suited to constant power output, and you could claim that 100% of your fuel was used for heating 🙂

 

If I was looking for a modern boat and had the cash, I'd certainly be investigating electric boats further.

 

They are unbelievably innefficient.

 

I project managed some 35kW ones for a well known supermarket. As well as 35kW of electricity generation they produced over 200kW of water heating!

 

 

 

2 hours ago, MtB said:

 

An interesting thought. The Whispergen is the only small CHP I've ever seen that runs on diesel though. All the others I've ever encountered are gas-fired. 

 

The ones I project managed for your favourite supermarket ran on syn gas derived from burning wood chip in a gasifier.

 

 

 

43 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Since first introduced to the idea in about 1970, I have never understood why people think the "lock mile" represents a good measure of time needed to navigate any particular stretch.

 

I reckon we can generally do two locks in the same time as we need to travel a mile, (usually even wide ones).

 

Before automated ways of producing estimates were available I generally relied on (locks / 2)+ miles.

Although we did once own one, I never thought much of the Chris Clegg map, which I  believe is based solely on his own records of how long he has taken to complete each stretch.

 

These days CanalPlanAC is surely the only way to go.

 

Back in the 70's - 90's I used to average 20 mins per mile and 10 mins per lock, but these days I seem to average 20 mins per mile plus 20 mins per lock, particularly in summer. The increased number of moored boats and longer lock queues at hot spots being the reason for slower progress.

 

As you saw CanalPlan AC is best for route planning these days.

Edited February 3Feb 3 by cuthound
To add spaces between merged posts

24 minutes ago, IanD said:

Sorry if I wasn't clear -- I take "lock-miles" to be number of miles plus half the number of locks, exactly as @David Mack says... 🙂 

 

Given that I did 613 miles and 498 locks (862 lock-miles) in 336 hours, that comes out at 24mins/mile (2.5mph) and 12mins/lock (5 locks/hour) average -- obviously faster in good conditions... 🙂 

 

Note that most of this was on narrow (and sometimes shallow!) canals in the Midlands and North, probably less than 20% was on wide canals and rivers where speed is higher but locks are usually slower -- and includes a fair bit of passing moored boats as well as the usual waiting for locks and other purposes.

Halfing my number of locks brings me to a similar average of 2.57.

53 minutes ago, BoatingLifeUpNorth2 said:

Yes, you give an honest and reality account of electric boating. I’ve met a few of your builders customers who are out CCing and they always say it’s a shock to how much diesel they use and I think surely you must of realised that you don’t get the solar yield through the Autumn & Winter months. 
 It’s like everything when you’re out on the water on the nice sunny days, you forget about the cold rainy days and enjoy it. Sometimes we all wear those Rose tinted glasses.🌹
 

I expected this anyway -- but I've also found you don't get the predicted yield (especially in summer months) while travelling around the system, because you're not always in the full sun either while travelling or while moored -- and I have to admit I didn't allow for this when doing the sums before getting the boat... 😞 

 

To give an idea, my array (2.1kWhp flat-mounted) is predicted to yield about 7kWh/day in summer (and 1kWh/day in midwinter!) using an accurate prediction site like https://re.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pvg_tools/en/tools.html#api_5.2 -- but what I've found is that even on the *best* summer trips (not the ones with exceptionally lousy weather!) I only average about three-quarters of the predicted yield allowing for shading (cruising and moored) -- of course the best days are *way* better than this (up to 12kWh or so) but that's cherrypicking not a fair number. Ironically the trips in October when there's a lot less sun gave 90%-95% of the predicted yield (so about half of the summer yield), because a lot more of the light isn't direct so is much less affected by shading.

 

All of which is one reason I've found I have to run the generator more than expected. The second reason is that the Quattro 48/10000/140 doesn't charge the batteries at the full data sheet rate of 140A, it drops off as it heats up (even with added cooling fans), eventually to around 100A (5kW) after several hours -- Ricky says they all do this even on the test bench, and he did warn me about this... 😞 

 

Still love the boat, but actual generator running time per day on average is probably about double what I expected before the boat was built... 😞

Edited February 3Feb 3 by IanD

21 minutes ago, cuthound said:

The increased number of moored boats and longer lock queues at hot spots being the reason for slower progress.

To which you can also add the number of locks with less than a full complement of operational paddles, and the much reduced flow from baffled gate paddles.