Advice needed on surveying/buying GRP boat that previous buyer pulled out of after survey. Likely issues?

[Sheff]

Hi,

A boat I fell in love with which would be my first boat for part time liveaboard (I escape the UK winters) is a 15k 80's GRP (with outboard, gas hot water, stove & eberspacher, has new BSS but not been out the water since way before 2020). The seller's private ad states the main work needed are rubbing strakes, but he filled the holes (is this a worry?). It came up for sale Oct last year via broker. I saw that it went under offer with a prospective buyer getting a survey. I've since seen the boat still for sale.

 

I messaged the seller privately to ask if the buyer pulled out due to survey revealing expensive repairs. He said not to his knowledge.. and buyer pulled out due to financial reasons. I know the survey belongs to the buyer but I messaged the broker asking the same, if the buyer pulled out due to survey results revealing issues or work needed, and asked specifically if any issues with the hull, transom, keel or any structural issues were revealed.

 

The broker replied: 

"A potential buyer did have a survey, and then had a change of circumstances so withdrew from the purchase. Had any major work been required, the asking price would have been reviewed to reflect this...

It did reflect the general where and tear of a boat of the age and usage."

It said no urgent repairs shown, the only thing they mentioned specifically was the lithium battery system needs changing but nothing about rubbing strakes or anything with hull. I feel like only mentioning an easy fix battery is a bit of a decoy, but maybe I'm too skeptical?

 

So my question is, how honest does the broker have to be or have they covered themselves with their fairly ambiguous response to my direct questions about the hull etc? I guess even fairly major hull issues could be covered under their "general wear and tear" of an 80s boat?

 

I'm finding it difficult to believe that someone with financial issues would spend over 1k on a survey on a 15k boat and then pull out for reasons other than survey findings revealing lots of work needed (dry dock for survey there is £650, cheapest survey quote I've had is £700). Only thing is the boat is on an unconnected canal network so lorry costs to move her are fairly hefty which would put buyers off, but surely this would have been considered.

 

If I had any boat experience or a knowledgeable boaty friend I'd be very tempted to skip a new survey (wanting to believe the broker or a drop in price would have disclosed any major work needed) and just get third party until I got it out to do the rubbing strakes and get it done at the same time then for fully comp..But I've scared myself now reading about ending up with a fairly worthless boat needing extremely costly hull, keel or transom repairs. I'm going to see her early next week but realistically I'm just kicking tyres. 

 

Is the previous buyer pulling out, and anything in the broker response a major red flag? Does it sound worth me spending another +1k surveying this GRP with outboard?

 

Any thoughts/advice gratefully recieved!

Edited January 10 by Sheff

[Jen-in-Wellies]

You've answered your own question really. Let me put it this way; would you trust a used car salesman when they say the jalopy you are looking at is fine? You say broker. That has a specific meaning, in that they are working on behalf of a seller, who owns the boat, till the money is transferred, minus the broker's fee. Is that the case, or do they actually own the boat, in which case, the used car salesman analogy is more appropriate?

[MtB]

I'd have thought the "financial reasons" were probably the surveyor valued the boat at half the advertised price of £15k.

 

Its hard to imagine any 80s boat with an outboard and rubbing strake problems being worth anything like £15k. 

 

 

But maybe I don't have a very good imagination....

 

 

 

[Sheff]

37 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

You've answered your own question really. Let me put it this way; would you trust a used car salesman when they say the jalopy you are looking at is fine? You say broker. That has a specific meaning, in that they are working on behalf of a seller, who owns the boat, till the money is transferred, minus the broker's fee. Is that the case, or do they actually own the boat, in which case, the used car salesman analogy is more appropriate?

Yes I definitely see brokers in the same league as car salesmen. But I also read they legally can't lie to direct questions (to avoid misrepresentation under consumer law stuff) but I think the ambiguous response probably covered themselves on that.

 

It's a Highbridge 32", I know they're fairly well regarded in terms of hull thickness etc, but I think it's probably been hammered in the shallow canal in Wales over the years and the previous seller hasn't done any maintenance on the hull during their ownership which worries me. 

[David Mack]

11 minutes ago, Sheff said:

and the previous seller hasn't done any maintenance on the hull during their ownership which worries me. 

Short of any impact damage and peripherals like bolted on wooden rubbing strakes, what sort of maintenance would you expect on a grp hull?

[MtB]

16 minutes ago, Sheff said:

Yes I definitely see brokers in the same league as car salesmen.

 

I fear you missed the point Jen was making, which is different laws apply depending on whether the broker is genuinely acting as a broker, or owns the boat himself. 

 

 

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, Sheff said:

Yes I definitely see brokers in the same league as car salesmen. But I also read they legally can't lie to direct questions (to avoid misrepresentation under consumer law stuff) but I think the ambiguous response probably covered themselves on that.

 

It's a Highbridge 32", I know they're fairly well regarded in terms of hull thickness etc, but I think it's probably been hammered in the shallow canal in Wales over the years and the previous seller hasn't done any maintenance on the hull during their ownership which worries me. 

Just go elsewhere, buy a boat that does not have issues that worry you. You will then be happy to sort out any issues as you find them, as you are happy with the boat.

A broker who does not own the boat will probably tell you what the owner has told him.

The broker who owns the boat is required to comply with Trading Standards. He cannot be expected to survey the boat for you.

I used to buy a replacement car from the local car sales place, every two or three years. They only bought good cars, and I never had any problem. 

They had been in business for twenty years, nothing crooked about them 

Edited January 10 by LadyG

[Bee]

I really wouldn't be convinced that a poor survey would trigger a drop in price. GRP is tough old stuff but it is not great if it contacts edges of brick / stone / steel piling and other hard points. Wooden rubbing strakes are frequently fixed with bolts or screws from the inside and that is a potential weak point. Plugging holes? Hmm, that might not be much of a repair at all, could well be a bit of car body filler, Gel coat damage that exposes the inner layers needs sorting and nobody really knows without looking at it out of water. I honestly would want to see the hull out of water.

[LadyG]

I suspect that OP is newby to boating of any description, which makes it difficult, my advice is to keep researching. As others have said there are some older grp that can make liveaboards for those who are hardy. Look at these.

I am on my steel boat, foam insulated, stove on 24//7. The boat is iced in, I have the saloon and sleeping area at 20C, anywhere else is about the temperature  of my fridge 3-5C.

My experience of grp, is that if cold outside it was best to ventilate rather than suffer condensation / drips. I had an artcic style expedition sleeping bag, plus proper thermal underwear, and merino bedsocks,  

 

Edited January 10 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

54 minutes ago, Sheff said:

It's a Highbridge 32", I know they're fairly well regarded in terms of hull thickness etc, but I think it's probably been hammered in the shallow canal in Wales over the years and the previous seller hasn't done any maintenance on the hull during their ownership which worries me. 

 

So the identity helps, and then 

 

2 hours ago, Sheff said:

The seller's private ad states the main work needed are rubbing strakes, but he filled the holes (is this a worry?).

 

Gives me some cause for concern, but that is based on general GRP cruiser experience, not Highbridges. Hopefully someone with more detail knowledge will put me right if needed.

 

The cost of a wooden keel will be mainly in the wood because chiselling the GRP off from over the fixings is a DIY job, but the boat would need to be out of the water and raised off the keel so you could pull the old keel out, push a new one in, and jack it onto the hull.

 

My personal view is that buying an old, heavily lead up GRP boat is less risky, hull wise, than buying an old steel one, so a good eyeball inspection would probably do. I would be less happy if it had a Z drive, rather than a shaft.

 

First question is does the Highbridge use a bolt/screw on wooden keel, a lot of GRPs of that time did. If so, that should go some way towards protecting the bottom of the hull.

 

I have known wooden keels to loosen and if the through hull fixings are not glassed over this can cause hull leaks. It is even possible they are glassed over, but a keel impact has cracked the glassing over. I would what to mage very sure the hull was tight on the hull and the fixings were glassed over.

 

Point 2. I don't like the sound of "holes being filled". If the holes for fixings for steel or rubber protection in wooden rubbing bands have been filled, but as long as the wooden bands were in good condition otherwise it would not worry my much. However, if they are through hull fixing holes, then just filling them is basically a bodge, and if polyester (car body filler) filler has been used then it is porous. I would want to see the back (inside) of the holes glassed over, and then the holes filled and rubbed back before painting to match the gel coat, in fact you could probably use el coat instead of paint.

 

Once you get the hang of GRP work an dthe correct resin and hardener for the season, the over glassing is perfectly within the scope of most DIYers, evenif t all gets a bit messy.

 

Like you, I understand those hulls were heavily laid up, so the odd scrape and even a degree of external blistering would not worry me too much. Scrapes can be cleaned back and filled with epoxy filler, as can blisters.

Edited January 10 by Tony Brooks

[GUMPY]

A quick search brings up this 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 10 by GUMPY

[LadyG]

I find it strange that the ad is designed to put off buyers, easy enought to tell them once they contact you. 

If I wanted to do up an old boat, in a hurry, I'd want it in a heated shed to dry out,  strip off all the rubbish, renovate and bring back to a really good state.

Remember the old adage, repairs take twice as long and cost three times (or vice versa) as much as your initial estimate.

If you dont have time to renovate, you probably should not buy a boat that has been neglected.

There are lots of YouTube blogs on repairs, try SAIL LIFE .

West Epoxy can provide all the necessary materials, with instructions which you should follow..

 

Edited January 10 by LadyG

[Crewcut]

I posted the below on the thread linked to by Gumpy above asking about a Highbridge 32, by the sounds of it could be the same boat. The rubbing strakes around the side wouldn't concern me it would be the big one underneath...

 

The hull being in the water for that long wouldn't concern me, as others have said blisters can be lived with or ground & filled. I went to look at a Highbridge 32 that was out of the water when I was thinking of moving on to the canals and because FG boats are what I know. It had a heavy wooden beam running front to back underneath in the middle (as a keel would only very shallow), think a long railway sleeper. On the one I saw it was bolted on and very clearly in need of removal and refixing/sealing. This would be doable but a heavy/tricky job, I thought it could probably be done by two or three people and a few trolley jacks. I don't know whether they all have such a "keel" or not but something to check if yours does. I've also seen another one where the large windows were removed and replaced with portholes and the interior altered some, if I remember it kind of ended up a nice but expensive job carried out by a series of "marine professionals" who pretty much successively undid what the previous one had done in order to make a proper job of it. Again you could do such work, along with adding insulation and the like, yourself if you intend to use the boat all year round or live on it. If you are thinking of living on without access to mains power you'd need to think about insulation, how you're going to keep warm & condensation down, water capacity, generating enough power to top batteries up, etc...

 

Where is the one you're looking at, can you post a link to the advert? Having seen what I saw on the one I looked at I wouldn't consider a Highbridge 32 without seeing it out of the water and having a good look underneath. That said repairs are all DIYable & the cost likely way more manageable than that of replating a steel narrowboat which you'd probably need to do if you bought a steel nb for £15k. Unless it was a very small one. Maybe. So many maybes...

Edited January 10 by Crewcut
add a bit more

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, Crewcut said:

It had a heavy wooden beam running front to back underneath in the middle (as a keel would only very shallow), think a long railway sleeper.

 

That is what I called a keel. On the boats I am familiar with, they usually tapered up as it went forward. The hull moulding often had a flat the length of the boat for the wooden keel to fit against. Even if the keel was SLIGHTLY loose, I would only note it as a "to do in my own good time" as long as the bolts/h screws were properly glassed over on the inside of the hull.

[Crewcut]

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

That is what I called a keel. On the boats I am familiar with, they usually tapered up as it went forward. The hull moulding often had a flat the length of the boat for the wooden keel to fit against. Even if the keel was SLIGHTLY loose, I would only note it as a "to do in my own good time" as long as the bolts/h screws were properly glassed over on the inside of the hull.

 

Yes I agree, on the one I saw it was more than slightly loose & I didn't get as far as accessing under the floor to look at the bolts but given where she was I concluded that it may have been why she was out of the water. However in different circumstances & for the right money it wouldn't have been a deal breaker...

[Alan de Enfield]

This one ?

 

 

Highbridge 32 Crusader for sale UK, Highbridge boats for sale, Highbridge used boat sales, Highbridge Motor Boats For Sale Big Bird 32ft 1988 3 berth GRP motor cruiser - Apollo Duck

 

That is the one that @Amylincs has surveyed (and presumably walked away from) as it is still for sale.

[Tony Brooks]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

This one ?

 

 

Highbridge 32 Crusader for sale UK, Highbridge boats for sale, Highbridge used boat sales, Highbridge Motor Boats For Sale Big Bird 32ft 1988 3 berth GRP motor cruiser - Apollo Duck

 

That is the one that @Amylincs has surveyed (and presumably walked away from) as it is still for sale.

 

If it is I think that a petrol/gas engine will make it less than desirable.

 

@Sheff check the availability of waterside petrol in your likely cruising area. Carrying cans of petrol from filling stations get wearing.

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

If it is I think that a petrol/gas engine will make it less than desirable.

 

@Sheff check the availability of waterside petrol in your likely cruising area. Carrying cans of petrol from filling stations get wearing.

 

The OP states that the one he/she/it is looking at (maybe this one, maybe not) does have an outboard - there are very few boats with Diesel outboards so he/she/it is likely to find the problem with any outboard powered boat he/she/it buys

[ditchcrawler]

45 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The OP states that the one he/she/it is looking at (maybe this one, maybe not) does have an outboard - there are very few boats with Diesel outboards so he/she/it is likely to find the problem with any outboard powered boat he/she/it buys

The Wilderness owners club use to keep a database of all water side (or reasonably so) petrol outlets 

[MtB]

4 hours ago, LadyG said:

Just go elsewhere, buy a boat that does not have issues that worry you.

 

Surely a trite and deeply unhelpful piece of advice. The OP is trying to buy a Highbridge which is rare as hens' teeth.

 

(Mind you there are two other Highbridges for sale on the duck at the moment!)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[LadyG]

15 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Surely a trite and deeply unhelpful piece of advice. The OP is trying to buy a Highbridge which is rare as hens' teeth.

 

(Mind you there are two other Highbridges for sale on the duck at the moment!)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

So, not as rare as hens teeth then .... best to see them all, ....

I dont consider my post to be trite,  it's straight and to the point.

I have already posted previously at length...

If you want me to fill out my last comment, here goes:   I dont think any particular boat is likely to be perfect for any particular person.  Any older boats will have been adapted to previous owners style, and it is extremely likely that a new owner will want to change things. The things likely to need changed are decor, heating, cooking, upholstery, the hull may need renovation, the keel may need replacement, the rubbing strikes might need to be removed, Any skin damage may need to be repaired. Any botched repair is probably best sorted at some time.

If the OP intends to move on board immediately, and to take a mooring with shorepower then his requirements may be different to someone who wants a summer leisure boat.

If the purchaser has sufficient financial resources then he may consider paying for  a fitter, if he has relevant skills he may consider doing it himself.

Essentially if the boat is not suited to his requirements, and cant easily be sorted with his current resources, including time and money then he should look elsewhere. He does not have to buy a boat he has fallen in love with, others are available. He may find a better boat or he may decide "this is the one".

Hope that is a helpful post, it's certainly not trite.

PS personally I would not be happy with a petrol engine unless a modern outboard, and designed for/ suited to travel on the inland waterways, and  unless there was a dedicated locker isolated from the saloon.

PPS Only ever use the correct storage containers, accidents can happen.

Edited January 11 by LadyG
Enough waffle?

[Mac of Cygnet]

When I bought Cygnet (in 2008) this was exactly the position - a potential buyer had had a survey, but pulled out because of financial circumstances, or at least that was what the broker (Calcutt) understood.  So I asked if I could obtain a copy of the survey, which of course belonged to the first prospective buyer.  With his agreement, I paid half of the cost of the survey, which revealed nothing drastic.  I bought the boat, Calcutt did the work necessary, and I had 12 great years travelling almost the whole system.

[Crewcut]

In the OP's position, unless I "needed" a narrow beam, for the same money I'd be far more inclined to go for something like this:

 

https://www.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/freeman-27-for-sale/812602

 

Or this:

 

https://www.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/seamaster-27-for-sale/811009

 

Easily liveable for one if you can escape the UK for winter, diesel engine...

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Crewcut said:

In the OP's position, unless I "needed" a narrow beam, for the same money I'd be far more inclined to go for something like this:

 

https://www.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/freeman-27-for-sale/812602

 

Or this:

 

https://www.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/seamaster-27-for-sale/811009

 

Easily liveable for one if you can escape the UK for winter, diesel engine...

 

Seconded. 

 

But these Highbridges seem to be remarkably sought-after despite being petrol outboard powered. Presumably because they fit through thin locks.