Engine nor starting in cold weather

[Mr Pomplemousse]

My engine isn't turning over at all, conditions are very cold here (canal frozen) and it hasn't been started for a week. The lights come on except the coil light and when I turn the key to ignition I get nothing. Is it likely the battery is too cold or just completely dead?

[bizzard]

Start with simples.  Check engine battery terminals for cleanliness and tightness, including cable to engine mass.

[David Mack]

The panel lights come on when you turn the key to position 1. But when you turn it to the heat or start positions do they go out? That would suggest a flat battery.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

The panel lights come on when you turn the key to position 1. But when you turn it to the heat or start positions do they go out? That would suggest a flat battery.

 

Also suggests a poor battery cable connection going 'high resistance' when 400A tries to flow.

 

 

[Unicorn Stampede]

It feels likely that if you haven't had the engine going all week and there's nothing but clicking when you turn the key, the battery is flat. The cold sucks charge from batteries naturally and if the engine room/battery box isn't insulated (not that it would do much with the temperature drops we've had) then it's going to be a harder time starting up.

 

Also worth looking at getting batteries with higher CCA (cold crank) to help with chilly weather.

[LadyG]

9 hours ago, Unicorn Stampede said:

It feels likely that if you haven't had the engine going all week and there's nothing but clicking when you turn the key, the battery is flat. The cold sucks charge from batteries naturally and if the engine room/battery box isn't insulated (not that it would do much with the temperature drops we've had) then it's going to be a harder time starting up.

 

Also worth looking at getting batteries with higher CCA (cold crank) to help with chilly weather.

I've been running the engine for 30 mins twice a day since being iced in, it's keeping the starter battery a few degrees higher than otherwise and topping up the domestics.  Temp outside now -5C.

My stove is running pretty hard 24/7, but I had a glass of red from a bottle which was sitting on the floor, and it was stone cold. There is nothing more I can do to keep batteries happy.

Yes @TonyBrooks , my batteries, would be better charged with a longer session, even better to move,  my thinking was that the oil would not be sitting at ambient -5C if I ran the engine more frequently.

I will change the oil at 200 hours rather than 250.  I  have different oil in winter, im on Marine Classic 10-40 at the moment. I usually get Shire Cruisers to change the oil at 250.but their more modern oils will probably be good enough all year round.

 I've deviated from the norm, one of my domestic banks is always well charged, and the other (one agm), is designated as sacrificial ( it's generally about >12.02v before sunrise). I have an "excess of batteries" and I use this particular battery for charging tablet, phone, reading lamp.

If buying a new Starter battery i would go for cold cranking, but i dont think it's necessary for Domestics.

Edited January 6 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

19 minutes ago, LadyG said:

've been running the engine for 30 mins twice a day since being iced in, it's keeping the starter battery a few degrees higher than otherwise and topping up the domestic

 

Your boat and your engine so fine, if that keeps you happy, but I would hate an inexperienced boater to read this and think it is the way to do things, if they have lead acid batteries, as I think you have. This is on two counts.

 

1. The engine will hardly have ad time to get fully warm, and it is the same as the little old lady only using her can for a 5-minute run to her local shop. It is likely to cause premature engine wear. Being a diesel, it will be a bit less damaging than an older petrol engine, but still not the best idea.

 

2. It is very doubtful that you are fully charging the batters doing that, so you are risking sulphation by letting them stand, never fully charged. It is far better to fully charge them in one hit, but that will take many hours.

 

At least with LFP batteries, the engine would be at a higher load for longer, so it warms up faster (and the batteries charge faster).

 

@Mr Pomplemousse As said, batteries do perform less well the lower the temperature. As long as the battery connections are clean (scrape the mating surfaces to bright metal), the master switch is not faulty, and there are no bad connections on the thick cables between battery and engine, then by far the most likelihood is that the start battery has had its day. Tell us what the test @David Mack told you shows.

 

Typically, narrowboats use a 90 to 110 Ah start battery and those have more than enough CCA amp capacity to start a typical diesel in fair condition in cold weather, PROVIDING they are kept well charged, and the domestic battery use usually ensures they are on twin alternator or split charge system boats. This is why I think your start battery may well have had it. Do not be tempted to buy a battery the size they use in cars. It will probably work for a while but for a far shorter time than a larger one. One fitted to large diesel vans or trucks should be OK. 

[Mr Pomplemousse]

Thanks all. I tried again last night and it did try turning over but wouldn't start. The coil light didn't come on as usual so I'm thinking that there is perhaps not enough power in the battery at these temperatures to heat the fuel?

[Tony Brooks]

6 minutes ago, Mr Pomplemousse said:

Thanks all. I tried again last night and it did try turning over but wouldn't start. The coil light didn't come on as usual so I'm thinking that there is perhaps not enough power in the battery at these temperatures to heat the fuel?

 

looking at the symbols on the ignition switch AND the warning lamp, I think what you call the coil lamp is actually the glow plug warning lamp. It should only come on when you turn the key to the second position (glow plugs on) and may stay on while the key is in the third position (start). The fact it does not come on suggests to me that there is a good chance that the warning bulb as blown or the glow plug supply from the switch has failed (fallen off?).

 

Although in this case I still suspect a discharged and probably faulty battery, the glow plugs are used to make cold starting easier in cold conditions, so you need to make sure the glow plugs are working. At the very least, put a volt meter (20V DC) or a test lamp between a glow plug terminal and clean metal on the engine and operate the glow plugs. The test lamp should illuminate, or the voltmeter read battery voltage or a little less. This only proves you have an electrical supply to the plugs, but one or more may be burned out. The easiest way for a typical boater way to test them is to take the plugs out and connect them across the battery to see if they glow - DO NOT hold the tip if dong this, you may well get burned as they heat up. I repeat, faulty glow plugs will NOT be the reason the engine is not spinning over fast enough to start.

[blackrose]

Clean up the cable terminals and battery posts, wait until later today or tomorrow and try to start the engine again. Temperatures are set to rise to a balmy 5 degrees above zero tomorrow in the East Mids!

[Up-Side-Down]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

I've been running the engine for 30 mins twice a day since being iced in, it's keeping the starter battery a few degrees higher than otherwise and topping up the domestics.  Temp outside now -5C.

My stove is running pretty hard 24/7, but I had a glass of red from a bottle which was sitting on the floor, and it was stone cold. There is nothing more I can do to keep batteries happy.

But you could store the bottle of red somewhat higher up in the boat to make it more drinkable .........

[LadyG]

52 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

But you could store the bottle of red somewhat higher up in the boat to make it more drinkable .........

No worries, I just warmed my glass.

PS im not suggesting anyone else runs their engine for short periods, as Tony Brooks says, it's not good for charging and increases engine wear, but my batteries are fairly well charged at the moment, and even getting a bit of solar. Im just doing this while im iced in, making sure everything  is working more than anything. There is no sign of my five year old agm batteries failing, touch wood. 

Edited January 6 by LadyG

[Up-Side-Down]

8 minutes ago, LadyG said:

No worries, I just warmed my glass.

Cunning plan!

[Mr Pomplemousse]

Thanks all, great advice as always. Will get the volt meter onto it later and give it another shot. Temperatures should be above freezing today so still holding out some hope.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Mr Pomplemousse said:

Thanks all, great advice as always. Will get the volt meter onto it later and give it another shot. Temperatures should be above freezing today so still holding out some hope.

 

Take the voltage reading before turning over the engine, THEN take a reading whilst you are turning over the engine (you may need someone to turn the key whilst you look at the voltage - depends on your 'set up')

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, Mr Pomplemousse said:

Thanks all. I tried again last night and it did try turning over but wouldn't start. The coil light didn't come on as usual so I'm thinking that there is perhaps not enough power in the battery at these temperatures to heat the fuel?

When did you last full charge it , how old  is it? Can you measure the voltage ? The coil symbol is the engine Heater plugs, It should illuminate when the key gets to that position, does that happen?

[Tony Brooks]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Take the voltage reading before turning over the engine, THEN take a reading whilst you are turning over the engine (you may need someone to turn the key whilst you look at the voltage - depends on your 'set up')

@Mr Pomplemousse

If, when you try to start the engine, the voltmeter drops to under 10V (Lucas test car figure) then, as long as the wiring and master switch are OK, the battery is either flat or faulty. In my experience, you can go a little lower and still start the engine, but possibly not with cold oil in the engine at today's temperatures.

[Unicorn Stampede]

Also worth saying (and willing to be corrected here) that if the battery is on its way out, continually recharging a damaged battery is a recipe for disaster. Look out for the 'eggy smell'. Or I guess, be sniffing for it. 

[Tony Brooks]

30 minutes ago, Unicorn Stampede said:

Also worth saying (and willing to be corrected here) that if the battery is on its way out, continually recharging a damaged battery is a recipe for disaster. Look out for the 'eggy smell'. Or I guess, be sniffing for it. 

 

If the damage is shorting cells then I fully agree, but if it is gross loss of capacity due to sulphation ad nothing else then continually trying to recharge it won't make it any worse. However, as gross sulphation is a contributory factor in causing cell shorts (lead sulphate takes up more space than lead oxide) there may be both faults present, but it seems the battery covered slightly, so unless there was solar charging cell, shorting is less likely, but not impossible.

[LEO]

Been wading through this....if the engine has heater plugs, this weather they need a good battery, and 30 to 60 secs on the heater plugs, other wise forget it - that was how my 1.5 started, the Gardner was different, push the button under the rack and then the starter.......

[Tony Brooks]

8 minutes ago, LEO said:

Been wading through this....if the engine has heater plugs, this weather they need a good battery, and 30 to 60 secs on the heater plugs, other wise forget it - that was how my 1.5 started, the Gardner was different, push the button under the rack and then the starter.......

 

FWIW, BMMC 1.5s are known to be less than perfect starters in the cold and definitely need a long glow plug cycle, even longer if the glow plug holes have not been decarbonised for years, but the OP seems to have a Canal line engine which is likely to be Isuzu that uses modern larger diameter glow plugs. That should be a much better cold starter, but it will still need glow plugs or lots of cranking in this weather. Holding glow plugs in operation for longer than the manufacturer/mariniser advises is not a very good idea, it may burn the plug(s) out. 

 

Gardners are direct injection engines that are always better cold starters than indirect injection, providing the engine is in tolerable condition. My Bukh was the same, but did not even have a cold start button.

[cheesegas]

20 minutes ago, LEO said:

Been wading through this....if the engine has heater plugs, this weather they need a good battery, and 30 to 60 secs on the heater plugs, other wise forget it - that was how my 1.5 started, the Gardner was different, push the button under the rack and then the starter.......

As @Tony Brooks said, the maximum amount of glow plug time varies from engine to engine - 30-60 seconds is fine for a BMC with older glow plugs, but modern engines need far less time and 60 seconds is likely to reduce the lifespan of the glow plugs. HMI/Isuzu have it in bold in the manual, no longer than 10-15 seconds.

[ditchcrawler]

Lack of heat wont stop it cranking 

[Tony Brooks]

6 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Lack of heat wont stop it cranking 

 

True, but from what the OP has posted I have doubts that he knew the "coil" symbol was for glow plugs, or even what they are used for, so he may have been starting it for weeks without using the glow plugs, that and limited running MIGHT be why the battery is now flat. Other potential faults available.

[jonathanA]

I guess the OP could try jump starting off his domestics assuming they aren't flat now...   You will just need to connect the domestic battery positive to the starter battery positive with a decent jump lead. The negatives <should> already be connected together (but its a boat so never assume...) Conventional wisdom says connect the starter battery first in case there is a build up of hydrogen gas near the flat battery which Lead acids can give off and a spark could ignite. (just saying - personally i think you have more chance of winning the lottery but....)