Can AA lithium batteries be trusted on a boat?

[IanD]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

Exactly. That and GJW's woolly answer on 'lithium extinguishers' make it hard to know what is actually compliant with insurers' requirements. Or perhaps means that the insurers' requirements are unenforceable, and that a claimant who pushes back will get a payout in the end because the requirements are too vague.

Unless they also put similar requirements on  charging lithium batteries in houses where the risks are exactly the same as on a boat, I expect they'd find it impossible to use this escape clause in reality.

[Russ T]

1 minute ago, alias said:

 

It is indeed, which suggests that MtB's advice to manage the risk rather than worry about insurance (and Li extinguishers) may be good advice.

 

After all, in the event of a total loss one could always assure the insurers that there was an extinguisher available, but it was lost in the fire as it was necessary to evacuate rather than fight the fire.

I am certain the assurance that you actually had such an extinguisher would be accepted once you provided the company with the receipt (preferably dated before the date of the fire).

[Gybe Ho]

15 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Back on topic. LEDs need something to limit the current. The voltage can vary widely. Unless the OPs candles are using a resistor to set the current, most LED driver chips can tolerate a widish band of voltages. Enough to make the Alkaline vs NiMH question moot. 

 

 

This is interesting, I have two sets of electric candles on board. One set has a single on/off switch and a mechanical flame flicker pendulum that is agitated by the heat of the led filament. This set gradually dims as the alkaline AAs loose charge, the other set is more sophisticated with an on/off/timed switch and has an electronic flame flicker. The second set has a constant brightness and is still on the original AA batteries fitted Christmas eve.

[Gybe Ho]

20 minutes ago, IanD said:

Unless they also put similar requirements on  charging lithium batteries in houses where the risks are exactly the same as on a boat, I expect they'd find it impossible to use this escape clause in reality.

 

Who is "they" in this context, the insurer or boat owner?

[alias]

20 minutes ago, Russ T said:

I am certain the assurance that you actually had such an extinguisher would be accepted once you provided the company with the receipt (preferably dated before the date of the fire).

 

Wouldn't it have been with all the other boat related receipts - on the boat. 

 

Surely they wouldn't want to be seen suggesting that you should have risked your life moving towards the fiercely burning fire through a cloud of smoke that obscured visibility to try the extinguisher when you were able to turn on your heel and escape through a door. 

[GUMPY]

25 minutes ago, IanD said:

Unless they also put similar requirements on  charging lithium batteries in houses where the risks are exactly the same as on a boat, I expect they'd find it impossible to use this escape clause in reality.

And caravan/motorhomes also electric cars parked on the drive / in the garage

I suspect the battery banks in houses are way bigger than those on most boats, mine is small at 17.4kWh.

[Russ T]

15 minutes ago, alias said:

 

Wouldn't it have been with all the other boat related receipts - on the boat. 

 

Surely they wouldn't want to be seen suggesting that you should have risked your life moving towards the fiercely burning fire through a cloud of smoke that obscured visibility to try the extinguisher when you were able to turn on your heel and escape through a door. 

I suppose it's possible that you purchased the extinguisher in a shop, and they gave you a paper receipt. More likely is that you would buy such a device from a specialist online,as such, your receipt would be in the cloud. Mind you, your boat would probably also be in a cloud (of smoke) by the time you found the receipt.

 

I had a quick look on Midland chandlers website, and thought it strange they don't appear to sell lithium specific extinguishers. 

 

ETA. Besides it will be a BSS requirement soon no doubt.

Edited January 3 by Russ T

[Gybe Ho]

58 minutes ago, TunnelTiger said:

 

OK, we know Li extinguishers are available, but do they work? Conventional extinguishers aren't always effective on 'normal' fires. Would a Li extinguisher give a false sense of security. Best to assume a Li fire can't be extinguished and try not to have one. 

 

Not based on available evidence. This is perhaps why no such lithium fire extinguisher has received a BS Kite mark. The present state of affairs is the product of lawyers and committee room wibble.

 

There are only 3 effective ways to fight a main battery lithium fire:

1. A James Bond style whole battery cabinet ejection mechanism.
2. 3 tons of dry sand.
3. A brave fire brigade crew who would lift smoking battery cells between a couple of large shovels and throw them out of a convenient pair of opened side hatch doors.

[David Schweizer]

16 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

I am buying too many alkaline AA batteries to keep electric candles and Christmas lights running.

 

After some Amazon research I was all set to order NiMH rechargeables until I found a review warning their nominal 1.2 volt technology means electric candles run a little dull, even with freshly recharged NiMH AAs, compared to regular 1.5v alkalines.

 

This led me onto the niche sector of AA batteries, namely 1.5v lithium rechargeables. None of the big names do lithium AAs, what is the reason?

 

Does any forum member happily coexist with 1.5v rechargable lithium AAs onboard?

 

Not wishing you to suck eggs, I assume you are buying good quality batteies. These days I only use Procell (non rechargeable) batteries which are the commercial range made by Duracall, and seem to last longer than all the competitors. They have to be bought in bulk (minimum quantity-10), and usually only on line, but they are cheaper than normal domestic batteries. For items which use a lot of battery power, like fairy lights etc, I use Duracell 2500 mAh rechargeables, which I charge using a Uniross Ultimate multi charger. I have noticed no significant difference in the light output between non-rechargeable or rechargeable batteries, and lifespan appears to be fairly similar. Of course it is a good idea to have more rechargeables available  than you use at any time enabling you to immediate replenish flat ones, as they do take several hours to re-charge.

[Gybe Ho]

3 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

 

Not wishing you to suck eggs, I assume you are buying good quality batteies. These days I only use Procell (non rechargeable) batteries which are the commercial range made by Duracall, 

 

 

I buy Duracell, Swmbo buys Amazon Basics.

[Arthur Marshall]

By the time your boat has burnt out and sunk, it would probably be impossible to tell that the fire was started by your camera battery as opposed to a dropped ciggy, bit of coal from the fire or an electrical failure.

Either way,  I'm sure the insurance company will do their damnedest not to pay you any money.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

1 hour ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

This is interesting, I have two sets of electric candles on board. One set has a single on/off switch and a mechanical flame flicker pendulum that is agitated by the heat of the led filament. This set gradually dims as the alkaline AAs loose charge, the other set is more sophisticated with an on/off/timed switch and has an electronic flame flicker. The second set has a constant brightness and is still on the original AA batteries fitted Christmas eve.

Sounds like the first uses a simple resistor as a current limiter. The second has some more sophisticated current control. It isn't an LED filament, by the way. LED is a light emitting diode. No filaments involved, which is 19th century technology (Swan and Edison).

[Ronaldo47]

Perhsps the "suitable for Lithium" extinguisher is only suitable for certain types? My understanding is that the unextinguishable  lithium fires are unextinguishable because the chemical reaction, as with gunpowder,  does not require atmospheric oxygen to take place. Such a fire will either continue until all the relevant chemicals taking part in the reaction have been consumed, or the temperature is reduced to a value low enough to halt the reaction, such as by total immersion in water.

[cheesegas]

19 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

By the time your boat has burnt out and sunk, it would probably be impossible to tell that the fire was started by your camera battery as opposed to a dropped ciggy, bit of coal from the fire or an electrical failure.

Either way,  I'm sure the insurance company will do their damnedest not to pay you any money.

You’d be surprised. I’ll find the link to the investigation into the dive boat; they worked out it was likely the camera battery vs anything else, and that burned to the waterline. 

 

Your boat probably won’t get the same attention unless it kills 20 people but it’s still impressive what can be done. 

[David Schweizer]

1 hour ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

I buy Duracell, Swmbo buys Amazon Basics.

Do I get a prize for guessing which last longer?

[GUMPY]

I remember the days of when Duracell were flat dropping them in a nicad charger and getting another 30-50% of life out of them.

Live dangerously is my motto.

 

[Momac]

19 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

I am buying too many alkaline AA batteries to keep electric candles and Christmas lights running.

Christmas is over and electric candles are not essential - job done.

 

[Ronaldo47]

I used to do that too, something I found worked in the 1960's with the blue Ever Ready Zinc-Carbon U2 cells I used in my battery tape recorder. I could usually extend the normal 20 hour life to around 50 hours by charging when they were partly run down, and never had any leaks.

 

It worked with partly run-down  1980's Duracells too. I did once try it with fresh Duracells as an experiment, and it made them leak while still in the charger. 

 

While Duracells do have high capacity, anecdotal evidence from an electronics forum I belong to, confirmed by personal experience, was that part-used Duracells used to be  prone to leak before they became unusuable due to exhaustion, and should not be left in stuff that is going to be left unused for a long time. 

 

I don't know if the current Duracell products are better in this respect as I haven't used them for a couple of decades.

 

The residue left by leaking  alkaline batteries is easily removed using household vinegar. When the fizzing stops,  rinse with water and dry.  

Edited January 3 by Ronaldo47
Typos

[Gybe Ho]

31 minutes ago, Momac said:

Christmas is over and electric candles are not essential - job done.

 

 

I am celebrating Christmas 16th century style, my Tudor Christmas ends at Candlemas in early February by which time I should be banking some 1kWh solar days.

[MtB]

5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It utilizes a non-toxic extinguishing agent called AVD (Aqueous Vermiculite Dispersion) which is deployed as a mist. The mist creates a film over the surface of the fire, which quickly dries and forms an oxygen barrier, cools the fire, and prevents re-ignition.

 

I don't accept an oxygen barrier is worth a light, given the battery on fire will be generating its own oxygen. 

 

Writing "Lithium Extinguisher" in weasel words on a portable extinguisher will not make it capable of extinguishing a lithium battery cell on fire. 

[Momac]

1 hour ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

I am celebrating Christmas 16th century style, my Tudor Christmas ends at Candlemas in early February by which time I should be banking some 1kWh solar days.

In that case stick with the Tudor theme. They didn't have electricity then.

[IanD]

6 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

Who is "they" in this context, the insurer or boat owner?

The insurer.

6 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

Not based on available evidence. This is perhaps why no such lithium fire extinguisher has received a BS Kite mark. The present state of affairs is the product of lawyers and committee room wibble.

 

There are only 3 effective ways to fight a main battery lithium fire:

1. A James Bond style whole battery cabinet ejection mechanism.
2. 3 tons of dry sand.
3. A brave fire brigade crew who would lift smoking battery cells between a couple of large shovels and throw them out of a convenient pair of opened side hatch doors.

None of which applies to the LFP battery banks used on boats, as has been repeatedly pointed out...

2 hours ago, MtB said:

 

I don't accept an oxygen barrier is worth a light, given the battery on fire will be generating its own oxygen. 

 

Writing "Lithium Extinguisher" in weasel words on a portable extinguisher will not make it capable of extinguishing a lithium battery cell on fire. 

True with NMC and similar chemistries used in most portable appliances. Not true for LFP battery banks on boats, which don't generate their own oxygen.

[MtB]

24 minutes ago, IanD said:

True with NMC and similar chemistries used in most portable appliances. Not true for LFP battery banks on boats, which don't generate their own oxygen.

 

Quite so, but why muddy the waters with LFP house batteries when we are discussing cheapo NMC cells in cheapo toys and AA 1.5V rechargeable cells (see thread title) and their tendency to combust under charge?

[Russ T]

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Quite so, but why muddy the waters with LFP house batteries when we are discussing cheapo NMC cells in cheapo toys and AA 1.5V rechargeable cells (see thread title) and their tendency to combust under charge?

Fogstar thread drift innit.

[MtB]

Just now, Russ T said:

Fogstar thread drift innit.

 

It is now!