Is there enough room

[JohnE]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Presumaby you are including non-C&RT registered boats in this figure !

Well I think that the exact number of boats is a well kept secret. 

9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Presumaby you are including non-C&RT registered boats in this figure !

Oops 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

4 hours ago, JohnE said:

Or am I missing something ❓

 

Had you considered the required space for the number of visitors to the canal ?

 

C&RTs (2022-23 accounts) figures quote 900,000,000 vists to the canals per annum.

 

If we divide that by 365 days, that gives 2,465,753 per day. (Summer or Winter / Rain or snow)

 

C&RT claim they are responsible for ~2000 miles of canals and rivers (not 2700), that equates to 10,560,000 feet

 

Therefore every person has ~4.25 feet of towpath each. 

 

It's amazing that more don't fall/get pushed into the canal/river.

 

Edited December 11, 2025 by Alan de Enfield

[magpie patrick]

10 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

So I doubt that the average moored out on the open canals is more than one boat per mile, which I don't think anyone would think is in any way a problem or risks "filling up"... 😉 

 

The problem is this situation is not static - the western K&A 25 years ago had a few clusters of moored boats, those clusters grow until they begin to meet each other, and single boats in the middle of nowhere (or at least not near a bridge) attract companions thus starting new clusters. The trend is towards canals full of moored boats, and the western K&A has nothing like London population density around it. 

 

Some bits will fill up faster than others, but on these trends they will fill up

 

 

[IanD]

15 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

 

The problem is this situation is not static - the western K&A 25 years ago had a few clusters of moored boats, those clusters grow until they begin to meet each other, and single boats in the middle of nowhere (or at least not near a bridge) attract companions thus starting new clusters. The trend is towards canals full of moored boats, and the western K&A has nothing like London population density around it. 

 

Some bits will fill up faster than others, but on these trends they will fill up

 

 

The clusters have been getting bigger in the last 15 years or so, even here on the outskirts of London -- and so long as boats and licenses are cheap and mooring rules unenforced this is likely to continue, and the lines of moored boats will get even longer.

 

But the fact remains that outside these clusters there's lots of empty space and not many boats, and the number of CCers would have to grow massively to change this -- and even so there will be big gaps between the clusters for those who don't want to moor next to facilities and everyone else. To even start to fill the gaps noticeably would need many thousands of new boats to be built, and this would take a *long* time.

 

Won't help with license evasion and crowding and mooring abuse in the clusters, though -- only rule/fee/enforcement changes will do that. Which may be coming Real Soon Now... 😉 

Edited December 11, 2025 by IanD

[JohnE]

19 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

The clusters have been getting bigger in the last 15 years or so, even here on the outskirts of London -- and so long as boats and licenses are cheap and mooring rules unenforced this is likely to continue, and the lines of moored boats will get even longer.

 

But the fact remains that outside these clusters there's lots of empty space and not many boats, and the number of CCers would have to grow massively to change this -- and even so there will be big gaps between the clusters for those who don't want to moor next to facilities and everyone else. To even start to fill the gaps noticeably would need many thousands of new boats to be built, and this would take a *long* time.

 

Won't help with license evasion and crowding and mooring abuse in the clusters, though -- only rule/fee/enforcement changes will do that. Which may be coming Real Soon Now... 😉 

Don't you think that the basic problem is that there are just to many boats on the canals.

One solution could be to freeze issuing new licences.

 

[Stroudwater1]

3 minutes ago, JohnE said:

Don't you think that the basic problem is that there are just to many boats on the canals.

One solution could be to freeze issuing new licences.

 

Haha, like @MtB my Dad was worrying about this but in 1985. I suspect @IanD is optimistic about the time and amount boats are out of their marinas. The last marina had around 5% out at anytime and probably 25% of the others hadn’t had their engine turned over let alone leave their moorings for 3 years. 
 

However it’s not uncommon to pass 25 boats traveling between Wigrams and Hillmorton, so even those that come out tend to return rapidly. Boating has changed so much from long cruises to short day or weekend breaks. 
 

New builds are filling up the system, However at least some of the widebeams I think end up on the continent? 

[cuthound]

One advantage of a heavily used bit of canal is that it increases the chance of finding someone just leaving a lock that you are about to enter. 

[Alan de Enfield]

52 minutes ago, JohnE said:

One solution could be to freeze issuing new licences.

Or better still - increase the licence fee by 3x.

(It is still a cheap way of living)

 

You lose 10,000 boaters as they "cannot afford it" which frees up 10,000 additional moorings.

The remaining 20,000 boaters pay 3x as much as previously so C&RTs income is doubled for less wear & tear on the system.

 

Example (taking 30,000 boats licenced per annum)

 

Each boat currently pays £1000 licence fee - C&RT licence fee income is £30,000,000

 

Increase the licence fee to £3000 and 10,000 boater say they cannot afford it  so C&RT loses  £10,000,000 in income - BUT ..........

 

The remaining 20,000 boats pay the £3000 giving C&RT a new licence income of £60,000,000 per annum.

 

Doubled the income, reduced wear and tear on the infrastructure, and increased the availability of moorings by 10,000.

 

win-win-win

 

 

Before anyone says "they cannot do that" - yes they can !

 

British Waterways Act 1983

.....Notwithstanding anything in the Act of 1971 or the Act
of 1974 or in any other enactment relating to the Board or their
inland waterways, the Board may register pleasure boats and
houseboats under the Act of 1971 for such periods and on payment
of such charges as they may from time to time determine:
Provided that the charge payable for the registration of a
pleasure boat shall not at any time exceed 60 per centum of the
amount which would be payable to the Board for the licensing of
such vessel on any inland waterway other than a river waterway
referred to in Schedule 1 to the Act of 1971 as that Schedule has
effect in accordance with any order made by the Secretary of
State under section 4 of that Act.

Edited December 11, 2025 by Alan de Enfield

[IanD]

57 minutes ago, JohnE said:

Don't you think that the basic problem is that there are just to many boats on the canals.

One solution could be to freeze issuing new licences.

 

No, there aren't "too many boats", the problems are all to do with the license fee (too low, doesn't reflect actual use/benefit to boaters), evasion/enforcement of it (too high/too weak), and boaters who bend or break the rules about where they can moor and for how long (unclear rules, poor detection/enforcement, no effective sanctions/punishment). Fix these problems and the total number wouldn't be a problem, in fact it could even increase and bring more money in to CART... 😉

44 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

Haha, like @MtB my Dad was worrying about this but in 1985. I suspect @IanD is optimistic about the time and amount boats are out of their marinas. The last marina had around 5% out at anytime and probably 25% of the others hadn’t had their engine turned over let alone leave their moorings for 3 years. 
 

However it’s not uncommon to pass 25 boats traveling between Wigrams and Hillmorton, so even those that come out tend to return rapidly. Boating has changed so much from long cruises to short day or weekend breaks. 
 

New builds are filling up the system, However at least some of the widebeams I think end up on the continent? 

I did say "at most a quarter even in summer" based on what I've seen, it's often less -- and this is in a marina (Great Haywood) often chosen for its position and choice of cruising routes, which probably has more active boaters who actually get out regularly than many do. So it's likely that the number of HMers out on the canals is less than I assumed -- which would further increase the gaps between moored boats outside the "honeypots"...

Edited December 11, 2025 by IanD

[Stroudwater1]

57 minutes ago, cuthound said:

One advantage of a heavily used bit of canal is that it increases the chance of finding someone just leaving a lock that you are about to enter. 

Or alternatively finding someone opening the bottom paddles - one ratchet per minute… 

 

At least there’s many areas relatively unused. A look at lock usage/ fill  figures for 2024 suggests that most boaters don’t trouble mechanisms much at all. 4700 folls for most of the GU Napton high marina number area. 12 fills a day, more in the Summer less in the Winter. Less than 2 or 3 per hour

 

By the time a boater gets to Hatton Lapworth or Cowroast it’s 1800 fills per year, 5 per day 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

3 hours ago, JohnE said:

Hadn't thought of that... although what happens when everyone is out & about on the canals. 

they all head for the Llangollen,

fortunately few head for Tipton and those that do move on quickly 👍

this time of year there’s very few boats about and you can have much of the canal to yourself,

 

 

 

3 hours ago, JohnE said:

22750 boats have a permanent mooring 

So if 25% are out at anytime

 
I’d be surprised if anywhere near 5% of Home moorers went out at anytime 

 

most boats are left in storage for the best part of their lives,

but 🤷‍♀️ that’s a wild wild guess based on the experience of viewing the number of boats still on pontoons in marinas and club moorings during summer/school holidays. 
 

 

 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

6 hours ago, David Mack said:

But not all at once.

I would agree with that, probably more like 5%

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

I’d be surprised if anywhere near 5% of Home moorers went out at anytime 

 

most boats are left in storage for the best part of their lives,

but 🤷‍♀️ that’s a wild wild guess based on the experience of viewing the number of boats still on pontoons in marinas and club moorings during summer/school holidays. 
 

 

 

I think there's about 18 boats now on my mooring. One's really a CCer so he's out most of the year, I'm out a lot, one other goes out for a few weeks and I think that's it.  .  I'm pretty sure the others haven't been off their mooring since I moved there twenty years ago.

[MtB]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

No, there aren't "too many boats",

 

Correct.

 

The real problem is the canals are too short.

 

 

 

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

17 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Correct.

 

The real problem is the canals are too short.

 

 

 

 

 too narrow

too shallow

….and no stamp duty on owners of a second boat 

 

🥱

[MtB]

All boats should be subject to an annual wealth tax. 

 

I mean, like, "Rich man's play things", boats are, they say. Right? 

 

 

 

 

And CCers should pay council tax too, just like us what live on the bank.   

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

27 minutes ago, MtB said:

nd CCers should pay council tax too, just like us what live on the bank. 

 

…yea yea of course they should,

 

🙄

 

30 minutes ago, MtB said:

"Rich man's play things", boats are, they say. Right? 

 

a status thing for you?

that’s interesting 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

All boats should be subject to an annual wealth tax. 

 

I mean, like, "Rich man's play things", boats are, they say. Right? 

 

 

 

 

And CCers should pay council tax too, just like us what live on the bank.   

 

 

 In which case, liveaboards should also pay CT.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

35 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 In which case, liveaboards should also pay CT.

If a live aboard has a residential morning they generally do

 

if not they’re not required to 😃

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

If a live aboard has a residential morning they generally do

 

if not they’re not required to 😃

 

You could argue the same regarding CCers (and it wasn't my suggestion)

[Arthur Marshall]

44 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

If a live aboard has a residential morning they generally do

 

if not they’re not required to 😃

If some resides on their boat, is not anywhere they moor a residential mooring? They are certainly mooring residentially...

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

40 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

If some resides on their boat, is not anywhere they moor a residential mooring? They are certainly mooring residentially...

aren’t they transient and always pushed from pillar to post, homeless with no address?

 

 

[MtB]

.

Edited December 12, 2025 by MtB

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, MtB said:

All boats should be subject to an annual wealth tax. 

 

 

They are, CRT collect it