LPW4 - Billowing smoke

[Elmo]

Hello everyone! Firstly thank you all for your help so far with previous questions!! 
 

We’re yet again facing another issue with our Lister LPW4, can you believe it? 
 

Started it up today, all was fine for about ten minutes then it started to sound horrible, really rattly like a bag of nails, with the addition of thick white smoke coming from somewhere on the engine. Added some more oil just in case, same problem. You drop the revs the engine stutters then cuts out. 
 

So I guess my question is - where do I start looking please? Anything obvious that this might be? I’ve read about the breather tube being blocked, but I can’t for the life of me find it? I’ve taken the rocker covers off (thinking maybe a top end rattle) they all look fine as far as I can tell, one was maybe a bit dry but there was definitely oil up there. 
 

Please help us!! 

[Peugeot 106]

The breather tubes are in the cylinder head between it and the air inlet manifold. You can clean them out with a wire or drill bit. It sounds more serious than that though. White smoke indicates either incomplete combustion of diesel or coolant leaks. Or it could be blow by from piston ring breaking or valve leaking. Or air in fuel lines. (According to my Nigel Calder book)

 

you need someone to lead you through the possibilities in a logical manner. Eg Tony Brooks. If you get completely stuck please pm me. I do know of lister engineers who could probably help

 

i’d suggest cylinder head gasket but don’t think that would cause rattling which doesn’t sound very good. If you check the rods ( they could be bent if a valve is damaged.) be sure to read the manual for reassembly they need to settle as it has hydraulic tappets.

 

only advice I can give at the moment is don’t start it again until you have investigated if you have a rattle. You don’t want to damage it.  Where exactly is the smoke coming from?

 

I’m going to qualify my reply by saying that though I’ve had the engine in bits I’ve no experience of your problem

 

it would be interesting to take the head off and check the valves etc as well as the gasket and also look to check no valves are clouting the piston ( valve imprint on top of piston!) or broken rings. Not a massive job. As an amateur I would allow a full day but your 4 cylinder head will be heavier than my 2 cylinder

 

i’m not sure what you would expect to see from faults in the fuel line or dirty fuel. 

 

BUT as I’ve said to you previously get the manual and follow it. Sorry I can’t help mine is on the boat but it is available online.

A dry rocker sounds suspicious?

[Elmo]

1 hour ago, Peugeot 106 said:

The breather tubes are in the cylinder head between it and the air inlet manifold. You can clean them out with a wire or drill bit. It sounds more serious than that though. White smoke indicates either incomplete combustion of diesel or coolant leaks. Or it could be blow by from piston ring breaking or valve leaking. Or air in fuel lines. (According to my Nigel Calder book)

 

you need someone to lead you through the possibilities in a logical manner. Eg Tony Brooks. If you get completely stuck please pm me. I do know of lister engineers who could probably help

 

i’d suggest cylinder head gasket but don’t think that would cause rattling which doesn’t sound very good. If you check the rods ( they could be bent if a valve is damaged.) be sure to read the manual for reassembly they need to settle as it has hydraulic tappets.

 

only advice I can give at the moment is don’t start it again until you have investigated if you have a rattle. You don’t want to damage it.  Where exactly is the smoke coming from?

 

I’m going to qualify my reply by saying that though I’ve had the engine in bits I’ve no experience of your problem

 

it would be interesting to take the head off and check the valves etc as well as the gasket and also look to check no valves are clouting the piston ( valve imprint on top of piston!) or broken rings. Not a massive job. As an amateur I would allow a full day but your 4 cylinder head will be heavier than my 2 cylinder

 

i’m not sure what you would expect to see from faults in the fuel line or dirty fuel. 

 

BUT as I’ve said to you previously get the manual and follow it. Sorry I can’t help mine is on the boat but it is available online.

A dry rocker sounds suspicious?

Hey Peugeot! Thank you as always for your detailed reply!! I’m not 100% where the smoke is coming from, I did try and look but it’s very hard to pin point as it just covers everything and I didn’t want the engine on for too long as it’s makes such a horrible sound. 
 

The problem seems have come on really quickly, we cruised on Sunday with no issues, no loss of power, smells or smoke! 
 

I’ll attach a picture with the rocker covers off, it wasn’t dry dry but the others had a fair bit more oil on them. 
 

I can’t PM yet I’m still too new!   Would you mind sending me that list at all please? I think I’m starting to get a bit out of my depth to be honest. 

The smoke is coming from the engine not the exhaust sorry if I didn’t make that clear. It looks like it coming from near the gearbox end of the engine 

[Steve56]

Possibilities. Jacked open a hydraulic tappets., faulty or blocked injector maybe a nozzle stuck causing hosing of fuel, faulty injector pump. Those would be my first items to check.

[Tony Brooks]

8 hours ago, Peugeot 106 said:

you need someone to lead you through the possibilities in a logical manner. Eg Tony Brooks. If you get completely stuck please pm me. I do know of lister engineers who could probably help

 

I don't know those Listers in sufficient detail to help, especially as the OP is adamant that the smoke is coming from the engine and not the exhaust pipe outlet.

 

2 hours ago, Steve56 said:

Possibilities. Jacked open a hydraulic tappets., faulty or blocked injector maybe a nozzle stuck causing hosing of fuel, faulty injector pump. Those would be my first items to check.

 

But surely that would cause exhaust smoke, not smoke from the engine itself. The rattle makes me wonder if, for some reason, there is a lack of oil pressure or a blockage, so one cylinder has the valve lifter starved of oil, but that would produce smoke from the exhaust.

 

What viscosity oil are you using.

 

@Elmo For me the mystery is why is it smoking from the engine and not from the exhaust outlet, the rattle makes it even harder to understand. Is there any chance the exhaust system has fractured and is leaking and ratting as the engine vibrates. However, I doubt that would vent any more smoke than normally comes from the exhaust. 

 

An oil leak onto the exhaust where it is not water cooled would make smoke, but no rattle. Ditto a spray of diesel. If a diesel ijector pipe has fractured then the engien will shake about and that may cause what you call a rattle, but it would be a misfire making the engien shake about.

 

Sorry not to be much help.

[jonathanA]

Thick white smoke ? Could it be steam ? It's not unusual for these (or any) engines to have a hose/rubber boot failure and that might be  throwing coolant about. Have you checked the coolant level and all hoses if the coolant is low ?

[bizzard]

3 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

Thick white smoke ? Could it be steam ? It's not unusual for these (or any) engines to have a hose/rubber boot failure and that might be  throwing coolant about. Have you checked the coolant level and all hoses if the coolant is low ?

Steam is invisible.

[jonathanA]

2 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Steam is invisible.

Fair enough...  coolant vapour then...

 

PS I'll tell my kettle that's its faulty next time it boils 😂.

Edited December 3 by jonathanA

[Peugeot 106]

3 hours ago, Steve56 said:

Possibilities. Jacked open a hydraulic tappets., faulty or blocked injector maybe a nozzle stuck causing hosing of fuel, faulty injector pump. Those would be my first items to check.

@Steve56how would you check the fuel injector or injector pump and would these cause a rattle? I’ve never messed with the fuel side of things

 

If a tappet is jacked is jacked can you just replace it if no damage done and how simple is it to replace?

 

@Elmo Richard at Primrose Engineering @RLWP not only rebuilds Alphas but his wife sells the spares. He is excellent and approachable. The LPWS2 in his news is mine. It now runs perfectly. Steve 56 is ex Listers and there are others I can let you know of.

At least your rocker doesn’t have a hole in it…Taking the head off is simple enough but read the manual. Hopefully Steve will help with advice about diagnosing and fixing injector or tappet issues

 

 

 

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, jonathanA said:

Fair enough...  coolant vapour then...

 

PS I'll tell my kettle that's its faulty next time it boils 😂.

Vapour is invisible too!

[Iain_S]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

Vapour is invisible too!

 

Fog, then.

[Jon57]

4 hours ago, jonathanA said:

Fair enough...  coolant vapour then...

 

PS I'll tell my kettle that's its faulty next time it boils 😂.

Tell this guy his kettle is boiling 😁https://www.force-of-nature.com/content/home-page

[Tony Brooks]

3 hours ago, Peugeot 106 said:

If a tappet is jacked is jacked can you just replace it if no damage done and how simple is it to replace?

 

As far as similar on many vehicles, you can take it out, put it length wise in a vice and gently squeeze it to make the oil inside leak out of the clearances that are there to vent oil. 

 

To check, after the engine has been stationary for a while, turn it over by hand until one valve is fully down. Then turn it one more complete turn. If you find one rocker has no, or far less, clearance than the rest, then that one is jacked. 

 

Also take the rocker cover off and run for a short while. Immediately you stop it, check how much free play there is on a rocker. If there is none, turn the engine about half a turn. If it still has none, the that one is jacked. Repeat for other rockers, running the engine each time. If any have far more free play than the rest, then that one has either a bent push rod or, what we are concerned about, a tappet suck in the down/collapsed position. Speed is of the essence because the lifter is designed to leak a little oil.

Very long shot: any chance an engine foot has broken and the stern gland is smoking/steaming because of friction?

Edited December 3 by Tony Brooks

[Mike Hurley]

Have you physically checked the engine oil level, hydraulic tappets can be noisy if the engine runs low, just a possibility.

[mrsmelly]

You saying added some oil just in case does worry me!!! " adding oil, just in case without knowing the precise level is a recipe for disaster. 

[Arthur Marshall]

I admit to being an engine numpty, but it's not just the exhaust manifold broken? An unsilenced engine sounds horrific and the smoke covers everything as I discovered a while back.

[Peugeot 106]

I see from previous post you said you would take the head off to change the push rod tube seals. If you remember we explained where to get a manual and parts list and I photoed the relevant parts of the manual for this. Did you take the head off and what did you find?
 

One cause of a leak is from a push rod tube. On mine the bent rod had split a tube with a hair line crack which I found by holding it up to the light. In your case this could I think be caused by a stuck tappet bending the rod 

 

I think I would take the rockers off to see if all the push rods are  the same. You can pull them out to check straightness. When you reassemble follow the manual to make sure the hydraulic tappets are bled properly. You don’t need to take the head off. About a 1 hour job. But when you take the rockers off all the tappets will extend so this won’t show a stuck tappet but I would think that rocker will not tighten down the same as the others as there will be no springiness in the tappet. I’m guessing a stuck extended tappet could bend the rod and could  damage the rocker and or tube

 

if you mess about hand turning the engine make sure stop is engaged you don’t want it starting

 

oil level, regular changes I think 250 hours for LPW, and most importantly correct API grade correct oil level  and viscosity are very important with hydraulic tappets I think. You won’t get away with not doing the oil changes properly

NB I’m assuming you took all 4 rocker covers off. One is left on in the picture?

 

 

 

 

[Steve56]

14 hours ago, Peugeot 106 said:

@Steve56how would you check the fuel injector or injector pump and would these cause a rattle? I’ve never messed with the fuel side of things

 

If a tappet is jacked is jacked can you just replace it if no damage done and how simple is it to replace?

 

@Elmo Richard at Primrose Engineering @RLWP not only rebuilds Alphas but his wife sells the spares. He is excellent and approachable. The LPWS2 in his news is mine. It now runs perfectly. Steve 56 is ex Listers and there are others I can let you know of.

At least your rocker doesn’t have a hole in it…Taking the head off is simple enough but read the manual. Hopefully Steve will help with advice about diagnosing and fixing injector or tappet issues

 

 

 

The best way to check any fuel injection equipment is to take it to a fuel injection specialist. A faulty injector can cause a bad rattle if not injecting correctly. One simple test is to run the engine and crack one injector pipe at a time. If one is at fault the rattle will stop when the faulty one is cracked. In saying that if this test is carried out you need to be very aware of pressurised diesel and the injuries it can cause.

With a faulty or clogged up tappet they can be stripped and cleaned, or replaced. To remove the tappet the head and push rod tubes need to be removed.