Kennet & Avon hire

[Philip]

Does anyone know of any hire companies on the Kennet & Avon which allow single-handed hire, out of interest? 

[Mike Todd]

At least three specifically require at least 2 adults aboard. Do you know any hire companies elsewhere that permit it as it does seem to be an insurance issue.

[Philip]

I've read on previous threads that a couple of firms on the Shropshire Union allow single-handed hire, but not sure about elsewhere. 

Edited December 1 by Philip

[Philip]

I had a look at the Foxhangers narrowboat hire website, can't seem to find any mention of minimum occupancy in their FAQs/T&Cs; anyone any the wiser?

[IanD]

13 minutes ago, Philip said:

I had a look at the Foxhangers narrowboat hire website, can't seem to find any mention of minimum occupancy in their FAQs/T&Cs; anyone any the wiser?

Just because they don't say it's forbidden doesn't mean it's allowed -- some hire firms specifically mention it, others don't, perhaps because nobody has asked them so it didn't make it into their FAQs. I guess if you tried booking a boat for one person you'd soon find out... 😉 

Edited December 1 by IanD

[Philip]

I thought it'd be something like that, hence asking if anyone had any 'insider' knowledge! Just looking at cruising options for next year and 2027, at this stage.

 

How long would it approximately take to cruise from the Shropshire Union (south end) to Bath, via Reading, if averaging 9-10 hour days and no stoppages?

 

Is the Wey a better route to do than the K&A if you're planning to explore one of the southern waterways?

Edited December 1 by Philip

[Tony Brooks]

11 minutes ago, Philip said:

Is the Wey a better route to do than the K&A if you're planning to explore one of the southern waterways?

 

I think the Wey locks are easier, but it is an extra licence fee, you could also do at least some of the Basingstoke canal, dependent on water level,  while down there, but that probably needs a Wey "transit" licence to get to it and back again, A Basingstoke canal authority licence plus a temporary Wey licence to explore the Wey. All well worth doing in my view, but you need to book transit of the BCA locks that is only allowed on certain days.

[b00ke23]

22 minutes ago, Philip said:

How long would it approximately take to cruise from the Shropshire Union (south end) to Bath, via Reading, if averaging 9-10 hour days and no stoppages?

 

About 14 days according to canal plan. 

[Philip]

Thanks both. For Bath it sounds like I'd need to book a temporary secure mooring somewhere within the western end of the K&A, if hiring isn't an option. I have done the last few miles of the Wey from Pyrford to the Thames, but this was delivering a boat and from what I've heard the best bit of the Wey is towards Guildford & Godalming. 

 

Two other big trips I'd like to do are Stratford-Avon-Severn-Stourport and the Lancaster Canal, but the latter isn't realistic until the Bridgewater breach is repaired.

Edited December 1 by Philip

[Mike Todd]

4 hours ago, Philip said:

I had a look at the Foxhangers narrowboat hire website, can't seem to find any mention of minimum occupancy in their FAQs/T&Cs; anyone any the wiser?

As with another site I looked at, when you come to book and state the party size, you will find that the minimum is 2.

[Tony Brooks]

If the OP phones some hire bases and talks to them, giving his boating experience and why he wants to hire, he might get a favourable answer, especially from the smaller privately owned ones.

[IanD]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

If the OP phones some hire bases and talks to them, giving his boating experience and why he wants to hire, he might get a favourable answer, especially from the smaller privately owned ones.

He certainly won't from the bigger ones who will have official company policies, with no discretion to change them. 

[Mike Todd]

12 hours ago, IanD said:

He certainly won't from the bigger ones who will have official company policies, with no discretion to change them. 

I would expect that smaller companies are even more likely to be driven by insurance companies' policies!

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

I would expect that smaller companies are even more likely to be driven by insurance companies' policies!

But is this actually the case or is it just company policy to avoid risky hires?

 

Like the "hire boats aren't insured to travel at night" trope which isn't true according to those in the trade, it's just that they don't want hire boaters crashing into other boats in the dark so they tell them they can't do this "because of insurance".

 

There are plenty of solo boat-owners who don't seem to have any problem getting insurance and AFAIK there's no check that they've got any clue about what they're doing (e.g. a helmsman's license), so I wouldn't have thought the position will be any different with hirers. What happens if an accident occurs when only one responsible adult is on board because the other one is working a lock?

[Cheese]

15 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

If the OP phones some hire bases and talks to them, giving his boating experience and why he wants to hire, he might get a favourable answer, especially from the smaller privately owned ones.

This. I competely understand why hire companies usually want a minimum of 2, because many will be beginners. But otherwise the implication is  that most single-handers here would be unsafe with a hire boat, which hopefully isnt true!

[Mike Todd]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

But is this actually the case or is it just company policy to avoid risky hires?

 

Like the "hire boats aren't insured to travel at night" trope which isn't true according to those in the trade, it's just that they don't want hire boaters crashing into other boats in the dark so they tell them they can't do this "because of insurance".

 

There are plenty of solo boat-owners who don't seem to have any problem getting insurance and AFAIK there's no check that they've got any clue about what they're doing (e.g. a helmsman's license), so I wouldn't have thought the position will be any different with hirers. What happens if an accident occurs when only one responsible adult is on board because the other one is working a lock?

Whether or not the restriction on night travel is written into the hire company's insurance policy, it is almost certain that somewhere it will disclaim if a boaters does not abide by the hire company's restrictions! Hence if the hire company says No Night Travel the effect is to say that the boat (not the boater) will not be insured. (or something along those lines - insurance policies do seem to be all about obfuscation)

1 hour ago, Cheese said:

This. I competely understand why hire companies usually want a minimum of 2, because many will be beginners. But otherwise the implication is  that most single-handers here would be unsafe with a hire boat, which hopefully isnt true!

It is legal to travel at light but it is also legal for both insurers and hirers to set their own conditions, based on their experiences.

[IanD]

49 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Whether or not the restriction on night travel is written into the hire company's insurance policy, it is almost certain that somewhere it will disclaim if a boaters does not abide by the hire company's restrictions! Hence if the hire company says No Night Travel the effect is to say that the boat (not the boater) will not be insured. (or something along those lines - insurance policies do seem to be all about obfuscation)

It is legal to travel at light but it is also legal for both insurers and hirers to set their own conditions, based on their experiences.

Except your first paragraph is directly contradicted by a post in the past from someone who used to work in the hire business, who said that the "insurance doesn't allow it" is a myth used as an excuse by the hire companies to stop their boats (and other people's) being smashed up by idiots doing night cruising... 😉 

 

If not obeying the hire company instructions was a valid excuse not to pay out then insurers would be *very* happy (and hire companies *very* unhappy) since many accidents/claims are caused by boaters doing things they're told not to do (or vice versa) -- not watching for cills in locks, not fastening weed hatches down properly, boating while drunk, tying boats to bollards going down locks, not taking care at bridges...

[Cheese]

58 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

...It is legal to travel at light but it is also legal for both insurers and hirers to set their own conditions, based on their experiences.

I don't disagree. But most or all of us here don't actually know what conditions insurers impose on hire companies, so that is largely speculation. Hence why I was supporting Tony's suggestion, that the OP should ring around a few hire companies and explain his experience.

 

Just looking at a few hire T&Cs at random: Anglo-Welsh and ABC specify at least 2 adults, but Black Prince doesn't. (Other companies are available...!).  And anyway if not prohibited by their insurance companies have the flexibility to change their T&Cs if they want to.

[Mike Todd]

31 minutes ago, Cheese said:

I don't disagree. But most or all of us here don't actually know what conditions insurers impose on hire companies, so that is largely speculation. Hence why I was supporting Tony's suggestion, that the OP should ring around a few hire companies and explain his experience.

 

Just looking at a few hire T&Cs at random: Anglo-Welsh and ABC specify at least 2 adults, but Black Prince doesn't. (Other companies are available...!).  And anyway if not prohibited by their insurance companies have the flexibility to change their T&Cs if they want to.

The drop down on Black Prince for number of guests starts at 2 (as I indicated for others)

[IanD]

41 minutes ago, Cheese said:

I don't disagree. But most or all of us here don't actually know what conditions insurers impose on hire companies, so that is largely speculation. Hence why I was supporting Tony's suggestion, that the OP should ring around a few hire companies and explain his experience.

 

Just looking at a few hire T&Cs at random: Anglo-Welsh and ABC specify at least 2 adults, but Black Prince doesn't. (Other companies are available...!).  And anyway if not prohibited by their insurance companies have the flexibility to change their T&Cs if they want to.

Last time we had this discussion, an ex-hire-company-employee posted that the insurance companies definitely did *not* ban boating at night, after all they're the same companies who insure private boaters who have no such restrictions. It was purely a condition of the hire company -- and if the hirer ignored it and sank the boat, the insurer would still have to pay up, though I would expect the hire company to ask the hirer to pay any excess on the claim, like they do for any other significant accident/breakage/damage.

 

The staff on the coal face at the big hire companies will definitely not have any discretion to change T&C, that's company policy will be the reply (for example, I know this is what ABC told Uplands Marina after they took it over). Smaller owner-run hire companies can make their own decisions, and are much more likely to be open to solo hirers even if their normal terms say two people minimum.

Edited December 2 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, IanD said:

an ex-hire-company-employee posted that the insurance companies definitely did *not* ban boating at night,

 

 

Are you suggesting that he could speak for the whole hire industry ?

Is there only a single insurer covering boat hire ?

 

As we all know, different insurers have differing 'rules', one that we all know is the boat-age for requiring a survey which can be 20, 25, 30 or even 50 years depending on the insurer.

 

I'm sure that any insurer would look at the risk-cost (of the very small chance) of an accident during darkness, and similarly, single handed operation and the risk of damage by an inexperienced boater trying to work the boat and the lock.

[IanD]

19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Are you suggesting that he could speak for the whole hire industry ?

Is there only a single insurer covering boat hire ?

 

As we all know, different insurers have differing 'rules', one that we all know is the boat-age for requiring a survey which can be 20, 25, 30 or even 50 years depending on the insurer.

 

I'm sure that any insurer would look at the risk-cost (of the very small chance) of an accident during darkness, and similarly, single handed operation and the risk of damage by an inexperienced boater trying to work the boat and the lock.

 

No, because I'm not stupid enough to think that one example proves general application... 😉 

 

I was just providing a push-back to "nobody knows" -- the only bit of definite information we have is from somebody who says it was *not* the case when they worked in the hire industry, and explained why.

 

Now until somebody else comes along with actual information to contradict this, the most reasonable assumption is that other insurers would do the same -- especially because such a clause would probably put both insurer and hire company (and hirer!) into deep doo-do if it was ignored and an accident happened.

 

Do you have such information?

 

No, I thought not.

Edited December 2 by IanD

[Philip]

Ringing around sounds a good idea. I'm a bit uneasy about doing Bath deep lock by myself, but it'd be a shame not to go all the way onto the Avon if I manage to hire myself a boat to do that stretch! Caen Hill would be a heavy day's work, but the locks themselves don't look too intimidating.

Edited December 2 by Philip

[Mike Todd]

32 minutes ago, Philip said:

Ringing around sounds a good idea. I'm a bit uneasy about doing Bath deep lock by myself, but it'd be a shame not to go all the way onto the Avon if I manage to hire myself a boat to do that stretch! Caen Hill would be a heavy day's work, but the locks themselves don't look too intimidating.

Make sure you choose a day with a good volly crew on duty! Several of the work well outside the normal season. Some of them are actually helpful! Also check the opening times, esp if travelling out of season. Don't rely on last year's data!

[Quattrodave]

We had a narrow boat we hired out for a few years, yes it was all done legally before anyone asks... TBH that was the reason we gave up because everything was getting silly money... Anyway I digress.. IIRC there was a condition in the insurance policy, night navigation was forbidden as was entering or leaving a marina. Where as 'staff' were absolutely fine to do so....

Edited December 3 by Quattrodave