Buy a boat, sell a boat

[TheShipsCat]

In pursuing an intent to spend some time living on the cut, that is four to six months at a stretch, I thought I had found a long-term hire company that would accommodate me.  Unfortunately the fellow has ghosted me and seems utterly disinterested in my business.  Thus I'm investigating plan B, to own a boat for a period of a year or two (or ?), with the intention to sell when I'm done.  I'm giving myself this thread to put out my piles of questions and to get general feedback from this community.  I've delved endlessly into the subject of costs of ownership and maintenance and whatnot, but there's always more to learn.

Some basic conditions:

* As a foreigner I can spend a maximum of six months out of a year in the UK on a visitor's visa. 

* Naturally I'd be looking for a boat that will depreciate as little as possible during my ownership, and will be easy enough to sell. 

* I'll be single-handing, as my wife no longer wishes to travel internationally.  (I am much more of a traveler than she is, and this is understood and I have travelled on my own many times.)  I'd wish to take on crew for intensive operations such as running long lock flights and whatnot.
* In general, I'm not wishing to become a boat hermit.  Having social interactions during my cruising periods is much on my mind.
* I'm not young.  I want to give myself this experience while I am in physical and mental shape to handle it.  (The latter always being questionable.)

Current thoughts that I'd like to explore with you all:
* I'd need a UK address for insurance purposes, and hope I can become a "tenant" of a colleague in greater London for this purpose. (£20-50 a month to receive/forward my mail?)

* I'd plan to buy through a broker once I find that there are several boats of interest available, making a trip from the US for personal viewing worthwhile.

* It might be a great thing to have someone in the UK acting as a "buyer's agent", who can help me look through boats and be on hand to take preliminary in-person looks to filter out wastes of time.  I don't know how practical it would be to find a dependable someone to take such a role, or what fair compensation would be for them.

* I'd look to keeping a CC license for four to six months out of a year.

* October through March I will need to store the boat secured for the winter,  Ideally I'd like to find hard standing.  I don't know what the availability and cost of hard standing is like as opposed to marina wintering or boatyard in-water storage.  Thoughts and pointers would be appreciated.

Probably enough for the intro.  I'll be posting questions here periodically.

 

Edited November 15 by TheShipsCat

[MtB]

19 minutes ago, TheShipsCat said:

* I'd need a UK address for insurance purposes, and hope I can become a "tenant" of a colleague in greater London for this purpose. (£20-50 a month to receive/forward my mail?)

 

You're welcome to use my hovel in Wiltshire as a UK address. No charge for forwarding the occasional item of mail but I might take day or three to tell you about stuff arriving. (Providing you're not expecting several letters a day!)

 

 

[David Mack]

44 minutes ago, TheShipsCat said:

* I'd need a UK address for insurance purposes,

UK boat insurers have recently got difficult about insuring foreigners' boats. Are you sure that for a US citizen having only an accommodation address in the UK is sufficient?

[TheShipsCat]

10 minutes ago, David Mack said:

UK boat insurers have recently got difficult about insuring foreigners' boats. Are you sure that for a US citizen having only an accommodation address in the UK is sufficient?

Not entirely sure, only vague words that others do it, and that may be out of trend.  I'll need to start probing insurance companies.

Then there's the option of residential moorings, which if available at all, would likely empty out my long-term elder care budget, but hey, quality of life over quantity, I say.

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, TheShipsCat said:

In pursuing an intent to spend some time living on the cut, that is four to six months at a stretch, I thought I had found a long-term hire company that would accommodate me.  Unfortunately the fellow has ghosted me and seems utterly disinterested in my business.  Thus I'm investigating plan B, to own a boat for a period of a year or two (or ?), with the intention to sell when I'm done.  I'm giving myself this thread to put out my piles of questions and to get general feedback from this community.  I've delved endlessly into the subject of costs of ownership and maintenance and whatnot, but there's always more to learn.

Some basic conditions:

* As a foreigner I can spend a maximum of six months out of a year in the UK on a visitor's visa. 

* Naturally I'd be looking for a boat that will depreciate as little as possible during my ownership, and will be easy enough to sell. 

* I'll be single-handing, as my wife no longer wishes to travel internationally.  (I am much more of a traveler than she is, and this is understood and I have travelled on my own many times.)  I'd wish to take on crew for intensive operations such as running long lock flights and whatnot.
* In general, I'm not wishing to become a boat hermit.  Having social interactions during my cruising periods is much on my mind.
* I'm not young.  I want to give myself this experience while I am in physical and mental shape to handle it.  (The latter always being questionable.)

Current thoughts that I'd like to explore with you all:
* I'd need a UK address for insurance purposes, and hope I can become a "tenant" of a colleague in greater London for this purpose. (£20-50 a month to receive/forward my mail?)

* I'd plan to buy through a broker once I find that there are several boats of interest available, making a trip from the US for personal viewing worthwhile.

* It might be a great thing to have someone in the UK acting as a "buyer's agent", who can help me look through boats and be on hand to take preliminary in-person looks to filter out wastes of time.  I don't know how practical it would be to find a dependable someone to take such a role, or what fair compensation would be for them.

* I'd look to keeping a CC license for four to six months out of a year.

* October through March I will need to store the boat secured for the winter,  Ideally I'd like to find hard standing.  I don't know what the availability and cost of hard standing is like as opposed to marina wintering or boatyard in-water storage.  Thoughts and pointers would be appreciated.

Probably enough for the intro.  I'll be posting questions here periodically.

 

If you are interested in long term hire still @Rose Narrowboats do it but I don't know their view on single handing

 

[TheShipsCat]

Note this rear door:

There are outdoor steps down.  Where does the water go?  Are there scuppers at the edge of the bottom step?

Does anybody have or are familiar with such a design?

 

6 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

If you are interested in long term hire still @Rose Narrowboats do it but I don't know their view on single handing

 

Thanks, I believe I had them mentioned to me before and they, like any I have checked, have a two crew minimum.  I'll check again though.

I understand why hire companies require that.  They can't assess skill level and they have lots of liability.  I will need to learn a thing or two about single-handing.  I'll get my first practice for two weeks in May.  Really, I've considered getting some formal training if it's available.  

[Tony Brooks]

3 hours ago, TheShipsCat said:

There are outdoor steps down.  Where does the water go?  Are there scuppers at the edge of the bottom step?

Does anybody have or are familiar with such a design?

 

Mine was a cruiser with steps like that, and the water from the steps drained into the bilge. Although I had no problem with that on a 30-year-old boat, many do, hence the pram hood to keep the rain out. On cruisers and semi-trads  the overboard drains from around the deck boards are also a common weak point that allows rain to leak into the bilge.

[Chris John]

Have a chat to John at North Kilworth wharf. He’s normally very accommodating and will give you good advice. The wharf NOT the marina 

[Arthur Marshall]

Singlehanding really isn't a problem. After a couple of days you get the hang of what's a comfortable pace to work locks, it takes a bit more thought to work out swing and lift bridges, but they're easy enough.

[Wafi]

11 hours ago, TheShipsCat said:

Not entirely sure, only vague words that others do it, and that may be out of trend.  I'll need to start probing insurance companies.

Is there a part-ownership option that might work (and not be fraudulent)? Ideas that might be worth developing:

• Selling a 1% share in the boat to a trusted friend in the UK who handles the insurance
• Selling a larger share to someone who handles the insurance and also joins you on the boat from time to time
• Selling a larger share to someone who uses the boat when you're not

All dependent on knowing/finding the right person, potentially adds risk/complexity, and you might not want to share the boat in any way at all; suggestions offered in the spirit of brainstorming in case they spark an idea that works for you.

[Victor Vectis]

23 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Singlehanding really isn't a problem. After a couple of days you get the hang of what's a comfortable pace to work locks, it takes a bit more thought to work out swing and lift bridges, but they're easy enough.

 

Yes.

Don't forget your boathook!

[TheShipsCat]

10 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Mine was a cruiser with steps like that, and the water from the steps drained into the bilge. Although I had no problem with that on a 30-year-old boat, many do, hence the pram hood to keep the rain out. On cruisers and semi-trads  the overboard drains from around the deck boards are also a common weak point that allows rain to leak into the bilge.

Thank you, Tony.  This is a point to consider in my boat search.  The boat would be unattended through the winter-side six months of the year.  Having to have a pram hood up to keep the bilge (or cabin} from flooding doesn't sound ideal.  A lot of wear on the hood, for one thing.  I recognize that even during winter storage I'll need to have a service person check on the boat from time to time in case of flat batteries or bilge pump failure.  I don't want a trad because I want to be able to share space on the stern.  I've certainly seen that heavy rains can mean a lot of pumping out on semi trads and cruisers, but somehow the outdoor step well particularly gives me the willies, with images of cabin flooding in my head.  I'm not sure that's called for, especially if the drainage is well designed, but that's hard to assess from a distance.  Another reason to have someone on hand in the UK who really knows boats to consult with on selection.  

 

And @Tony Brooks, I'll be going thoroughly through your web site.  You clearly have a lot of expertise I could benefit from.

 

[cheesegas]

14 hours ago, TheShipsCat said:

There are outdoor steps down.  Where does the water go?  Are there scuppers at the edge of the bottom step?

Does anybody have or are familiar with such a design?

I have that exact same design as in the photo. As @Tony Brooks said, there's some holes in the bottom step which allow it to drain into the bilge.

 

However, I modified mine by blocking all the holes and installing a plughole in the bottom step, with a hose that leads to the little tub under the stern gland that the bilge pump sits in.

 

Bilges stay perfectly dry year round now, without a pram cover!

[Peanut]

As an alternative to a pram cover, you can have a tonneau cover, which keeps the back deck dry.

 

[TheShipsCat]

I'd like to focus on the question of hard standing through the dark months.  How hard is it to find?  What are costs like (given haul-out and in costs) in comparison to in-water storage (boatyard or, ulp, marina).  Any experience to share?

[Onewheeler]

The boat will be much more vulnerable to frost damage from any residual water in pipes if on a hardstanding. Floating, most of the vulnerable systems will be below water level. I'd tie it up in a marina and maybe pay someone to keep an eye on it.

[MtB]

59 minutes ago, TheShipsCat said:

I'd like to focus on the question of hard standing through the dark months.  How hard is it to find? 

 

The address on the bills will help you find it again. AppleMaps are good for this  

 

 

1 hour ago, TheShipsCat said:

What are costs like (given haul-out and in costs) in comparison to in-water storage (boatyard or, ulp, marina).  Any experience to share?

 

When I was in T&K Marina, they charged the same for hard standing as for a floating mooring. I'd imagine this is pretty common practice. 

 

 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, TheShipsCat said:

I'd like to focus on the question of hard standing through the dark months.  How hard is it to find?  What are costs like (given haul-out and in costs) in comparison to in-water storage (boatyard or, ulp, marina).  Any experience to share?

I knew someone who did that every year at Debdale. Contact them when she was due to return and they had the boat in the water ready to go. Saves £500 in licence and 6 months moorings.

[MtB]

20 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I knew someone who did that every year at Debdale. Contact them when she was due to return and they had the boat in the water ready to go. Saves £500 in licence and 6 months moorings.

 

So do Debdale charge nothing for hard standing space?

 

What were the craneage charges out and in? 

[TheShipsCat]

12 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I knew someone who did that every year at Debdale. Contact them when she was due to return and they had the boat in the water ready to go. Saves £500 in licence and 6 months moorings.

Debdale also has a tidy page of prices (which they hopefully keep current), which is very nice for cost planning.

 

 

25 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

So do Debdale charge nothing for hard standing space?

 

What were the craneage charges out and in? 

Looks like Debdale hard standing for a 60' boat would cost ~ £1,204.80 for 6 months, including £300 for the lifts, if I'm reading this right.
For marina mooring at the same place, £1,029.60 per 6 months not including electricity.

 

Am I right that I would need a CRT license just for sitting in the marina, as opposed to hard standing which requires no license for the time out of water?

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, TheShipsCat said:

Am I right that I would need a CRT license just for sitting in the marina, as opposed to hard standing which requires no license for the time out of water?

 

 

Yes.

[Tony Brooks]

16 hours ago, TheShipsCat said:

Am I right that I would need a CRT license just for sitting in the marina, as opposed to hard standing which requires no license for the time out of water?

 

Usually, as Alan said, yes, but here are a few marinas where this does not apply based on history or riparian ownership of what is usually the connected river. You are more likely to find them on river navigations.

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Usually, as Alan said, yes, but here are a few marinas where this does not apply based on history or riparian ownership of what is usually the connected river. You are more likely to find them on river navigations.

 

Although curiously, when I moored in Thames and Kennet Marina I needed an Environment Agency licence. They used to come into the marina in a dory occasionally, checking licences.

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

Although curiously, when I moored in Thames and Kennet Marina I needed an Environment Agency licence. They used to come into the marina in a dory occasionally, checking licences.

I seem to recall EA obtained a Transport and Works Order a few years back which requires all boats on the Thames and connected waterways, including backwaters, tributaries and marinas, to be registered.

On CRT waters, marinas on rivers and some older canal marinas have no requirement for a boat to be licenced (and therefore does not need a BSC or insurance either for CRT, although the marina owner may require these). But in newer marinas subject to the standard Network Access Agreement all craft afloat are required to have a CRT licence (and hence BSC and insurance). 

[TheShipsCat]

6 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

I knew someone who did that every year at Debdale. Contact them when she was due to return and they had the boat in the water ready to go. Saves £500 in licence and 6 months moorings.

This puts Debdale on my map as a potential winter base.  The satellite view looks like they have a lot of hard standing space.

 

I'm interested in knowing about other facilities like this.  More knowledge from the community is welcome.