Is this a starter relay

[Bryan M]

I have an Elysian Maderia 27 with Newage/BMC 1500 engines and one of the starter motors is being intermitent. When this happens I can't hear any 'click' from a solenoid, so I'm trying to identify the starter solenoid - does this look like it? If so what would be the best replacement?

 

Many thanks for the suggestions! 

[David Mack]

Looks like it may be a relay, but in order to determine whether it is a starter relay we need to know where those 4 wires go.

[bizzard]

What about the other starter motor, does it have one too, and does it click when starting its engine?

[Tony Brooks]

It is an old style Lucas relay and almost any modern 4 terminal, or 5 terminal and ignore one terminal "square box" type relay will do as long as it is rated at 10  amps plus. It may well be a starter terminal, but at that age of boat it may have had or still have a Lucas 10 or 11AC alternator, and if so it could be related to the charging system.

 

 

[Kingdom Isambard Brunel]

The starter solenoid is the big can on top of the starter motor.It will be a pre-engaged starter, not an inertia bendix starter.

Your pic is a relay. It may well energise the solenoid to save wear on the ignition switch. You need to find out where the wires go to and then use a multimeter to find out why you do not have power to the small terminal on the end of the solenoid which energises the solenoid when you try to start.

[Onewheeler]

It may also be a heater relay. Some (all?) of the BMC 1.5s had long thin heaters which didn't draw much current. You'll have to follow the wires.

[Bryan M]

Turns out is the starter relay.....the matching one on the other engine clicks when the starter is engaged. I diagnosed that the feed from the key operated ignition switch was intermittent and after removing, cleaning and tightening the connections, the engine now cranks reliably..... however it isn't starting and the ambient temperature was about 28C.

 

It last started ok about 2 weeks ago but took quite alot of cranking to spring into life.

Investigations so far......

Fuel cock is open. 

Stop control in correct position (confirmed at engine end).

The battery is fully charged (13.6V), voltage drops to 11.4v when cranking (without glow plugs energised) and cranking speed seems normal.

When cranking we get white smoke out of the exhaust.

Checking the glow plug  terminals with them energised, they are all 11.3V (compared to 10.3V on the other engine which starts easily).

I'm puzzled in the different voltages on the glow plugs between engines - would the higher voltage on the non-starting engine imply that they are not taking enough current and not heating enough? 

It could of course be a fuel problem.....is my next step to remove clean & test glow plugs, or check/bleed the fuel system?

 

All thoughts appreciated!

[Tony Brooks]

42 minutes ago, Bryan M said:

Turns out is the starter relay.....the matching one on the other engine clicks when the starter is engaged. I diagnosed that the feed from the key operated ignition switch was intermittent and after removing, cleaning and tightening the connections, the engine now cranks reliably..... however it isn't starting and the ambient temperature was about 28C.

 

It last started ok about 2 weeks ago but took quite alot of cranking to spring into life.

Investigations so far......

Fuel cock is open. 

Stop control in correct position (confirmed at engine end).

The battery is fully charged (13.6V), voltage drops to 11.4v when cranking (without glow plugs energised) and cranking speed seems normal.

When cranking we get white smoke out of the exhaust.

Checking the glow plug  terminals with them energised, they are all 11.3V (comlow meters can be quite accurate and so can locations and both inexpensive so a panel instrument showing the current MPG is not difficult. Just seems that no-one is interested enough to justify someone bringing a model to a mass market, not even the suppliers of the popular water and fuel gauges. pared to 10.3V on the other engine which starts easily).

I'm puzzled in the different voltages on the glow plugs between engines - would the higher voltage on the non-starting engine imply that they are not taking enough current and not heating enough? 

It could of course be a fuel problem.....is my next step to remove clean & test glow plugs, or check/bleed the fuel system?

 

All thoughts appreciated!

 

Sounds as if some glow plugs may be burned out. Normally I would say take them out and put them across a 12V battery to see what happens. If you are getting clouds of white "smoke" - not a few wisps, then you  should have fuel being injected, but not enough heat in the cylinders to ignite it.

 

The problem with 1.5D plugs is that if they have not been taken out every couple of years and the holes decarbonised the pin ends jamb in and snap off as you try to undo them, so if you have a clamp type ammeter use a cable between each glow plug and the battery to see how much current each are drawing.

 

If you have to take them out, then the best way is to "worry" them out. Tighten one flat (1/6 turn), then loosen the same amount and after every three sequences undo them another flat, but they are likely to still snap.

Edited June 21 by Tony Brooks

[Kingdom Isambard Brunel]

Try removing them as suggested but on a hot engine. Sometimes they come out more easily.

[Tony Brooks]

29 minutes ago, Kingdom Isambard Brunel said:

Try removing them as suggested but on a hot engine. Sometimes they come out more easily.

 

Not so easy if it won't start.

[Kingdom Isambard Brunel]

17 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Not so easy if it won't start.

They all start with a blowlamp up the air intake, heater plugs or no.

[David Mack]

3 hours ago, Bryan M said:

the engine now cranks reliably..... however it isn't starting and the ambient temperature was about 28C.

At these temperatures an engine in running condition should start, if a little reluctantly, without needing the heater plugs. So whether or not the heater plugs are functioning correctly, I suspect you have another problem. My first checks would be fuel. 

Edited June 21 by David Mack

[Kingdom Isambard Brunel]

The white smoke signifies that you have injection, at least on some cylinder/s.

So fuel bleeding may not be the answer, though the 1.5D can be tricky to bleed properly.

Get it running by preheating the intake air as I suggested.

[Tony Brooks]

and the OP has yet to quantify the amount of white "smoke". Clouds or wisps.

[Bryan M]

I was getting clouds of white smoke..... 

 

For testing the glow plugs with the ammeter  sounds like I need to disconnect each before testing. Does no or low current = failed plug? 

[Tony Brooks]

10 minutes ago, Bryan M said:

I was getting clouds of white smoke..... 

 

 

I suspect some may not have absorbed your comment about needing lost of cranking two weeks ago.

 

Then it is injecting fuel, it should at least try to start, so if it is not, then despite the ambient temperature, the air in the combustion chamber is not getting hot enough. That points to low compression (worn engine, valves being held open) or lack of glow plug heat. 

 

Try turning the engine over by hand and compare the force needed to take it over compression with the other engine. Otherwise, check there is a gap on all the valve clearances and then get a compression test done.

 

This all assumes that you have not been messing with injection timing, valve timing, or valve clearances.

 

A further thought and long shot. The skew gear that drives the injector pump drive has an oil strainer and oil jet located below the manifold at the back port side of the engine. If not regularly cleaned, especially the strainer, the jet blocks causing the skew gears to wear. This gradually messes up the injection timing. So it might be a good idea to pull the strainer and jet to ensure they are clear and in good condition.

Edited June 22 by Tony Brooks

[Bryan M]

So have checked rhe current draw on each individual glow plug and they are all in the range 5.8 to 6.2 amps. When all connected together they draw 18 amps total vs 21 amps for the working engine that starts OK. Have removed one gkow plug so far.... Was tricky to get out intact but glowed red hot when connected directly to battery.... So glowplugs probably all OK? What diameter dril do I need to ream out the element hole? Is the tiny nut on the glow ug connection 8mm or an imperial size? 

[Tony Brooks]

44 minutes ago, Bryan M said:

So have checked rhe current draw on each individual glow plug and they are all in the range 5.8 to 6.2 amps. When all connected together they draw 18 amps total vs 21 amps for the working engine that starts OK. Have removed one gkow plug so far.... Was tricky to get out intact but glowed red hot when connected directly to battery.... So glowplugs probably all OK? What diameter dril do I need to ream out the element hole? Is the tiny nut on the glow ug connection 8mm or an imperial size? 

 

I always get his wrong so am not confident, but 7/64" or half a mm larger that the pin.

 

The difference between the two engines could well be down to more resistance in the wiring casing volt drop, and thus less current flow.

 

Have you turned the engines over to compare compressions yet?

 

The nut - it is NOT 8mm - that give a thread diameter of close to 5/16", although the spanner may well be 8mm across the flats. In a recent post, it was confirmed as 4mm (see This Looks Expensive), but with older boats one can't be 100% confident. 

 

 

[Kingdom Isambard Brunel]

Its 11/64" Long series drill Tony.  You can usually go to 3/16", carefully as if you break it off you will have a devil of a problem. 

A normal length drill will not clear deep enough. These are long thin plugs with a delicate thin tip.

That is assuming the normal AG32 or CH32 heater plug or whatever the latest equivalent is. The very late engines and the 1.8D use a different fatter shorter plug.

[Tony Brooks]

7 minutes ago, Kingdom Isambard Brunel said:

Its 11/64" Long series drill Tony.  You can usually go to 3/16", carefully as if you break it off you will have a devil of a problem. 

A normal length drill will not clear deep enough. These are long thin plugs with a delicate thin tip.

That is assuming the normal AG32 or CH32 heater plug or whatever the latest equivalent is. The very late engines and the 1.8D use a different fatter shorter plug.

 

Thanks, but I never had a problem with a normal drill on 1.5s, but I did not put it fully in the chuck.

[Bryan M]

Thanks guys, drill bit duly ordered! should I use a drill or try cleaning by hand?

 

[Tony Brooks]

56 minutes ago, Bryan M said:

Thanks guys, drill bit duly ordered! should I use a drill or try cleaning by hand?

 

 

I used to use a hand drill, but I am sure a low power battery one would do.  When done, spin the engine over to expel any residue from the combustion chamber, then refit the glow plugs.

 

Have you compared the compressions on the two engines yet?