Have boat prices collapsed?

[Bishop Brennan]

I've not been looking at boats for about 3 or 4 years, as other commitments took over. 

 

The last time I was looking at the market narrowboat prices seemed way over inflated to me. But having a look around ebay today - as I say, the first time in several years - I'm stunned at how cheap they seem in comparison to 2021/22. They almost appear to have collapsed in my perception. 

 

Is this true, or am I imagining things? What's the latest with boat prices?

Edited May 19 by Bishop Brennan

[junior]

I have noticed recently that the advertised asking prices for boats suddenly seem to be a lot more realistic than they have been for the past few years. 

 

My theory is that during Covid times there was a bit of a boom, and boats were In demand for a while and it was a sellers market so to speak. In the next few years after that people were advertising their boats for inflated 'Covid prices' in hope, but In reality actually were eventually accepting lower offers and selling for more realistic prices. Of course you only actually publicly see the asking price, not the final sale price, so from the outside it still looked like a strong market.

 

I think what has happened now is people are realising that there is no longer that demand, and if they want to sell they need to be much more realistic from the outset with their asking price.

 

I think we are probably back to pre-covid 'normality' rather than a crash in the market. 

 

5 years ago there was always a chunk of the market taken up by boats in the sub- £30k bracket that were tired, but not quite project basket cases, that were available to those shopping with a 'Personal Loan' budget. For a few years these boats suddenly became £40k boats and it was VERY different to find anything that wasn't a 30ft old dog needing tonnes of work for anything under £30k, but now there seems to be decent looking boats popping back up for sale in this price range. 

 

I just bought a boat for 25% less than it's original asking price, that had been for sale for over 6 months. In reality I didn't get it for a bargain, and whilst I was very happy with the deal, I probably paid only a little under what it was probably worth and would have been advertised for 5 years ago. 

 

It's a buyers market again, not a collapse in the market. 

[Alway Swilby]

There are some seemingly very cheap boats for sale on eBay. Sometimes they don't actually exist.

Have a look at the broker's sites (ABNB, Rugby Boats etc.) and see if your perception of the market is the same.

[Naughty Cal]

Collapsed is perhaps a strongly worded way of saying gone back to more realistic pricing.

 

The same is happening with cars, caravans, motorhomes, statics etc. 

 

The post covid boom for staycations is over, cheap holidays abroad are back on the cards for people so that expensive boat, van, car or whatever it was no looks like a waste of money sat unused for large parts of the year. People are cashing them back in again.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

There are exceptions, but, Ebay seems to be the place where boats that will not / cannot be sold by reputable brokers / dealers go to.

It seems to be that ebay (generally) fits into the heirarchy of boat sales just below Whilton.

[BoatingLifeUpNorth2]

Seen lots appearing on the Facebook sites recently, some are fairly priced, but still a lot that look overpriced and reading the Ad they have only had the boat a couple of years and are around the London area. So it looks like sellers aspirations with selling and price may still vary around the country. With sellers still trying to sell the dream and chancing it around the London area.

Edited May 19 by BoatingLifeUpNorth2

[smiler]

28 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

There are exceptions, but, Ebay seems to be the place where boats that will not / cannot be sold by reputable brokers / dealers go to.

It seems to be that ebay (generally) fits into the heirarchy of boat sales just below Whilton.

Wot he said.^^^^

 

A lot of "project" boats seem to end up on ebay.

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Naughty Cal said:

The same is happening with cars, caravans, motorhomes, statics etc. 

The house next door to us is a AirBnB holiday let. Three or four years ago is was almost full time occupied throughout the summer months, and most weekends through the winter. For the last year or two there have been very few winter guests and more of the summer visitors seem to be here for just the weekend rather than a full week.

I think it's down to a combination of money being tighter, so people are cutting back on optional expenditure, heavy marketing by the airlines and package tour companies to rebuild their holiday market post covid, and possibly an increase in the number of holiday lets available as owners cashed in on the staycation boom.

 

[ditchcrawler]

9 minutes ago, David Mack said:

The house next door to us is a AirBnB holiday let. Three or four years ago is was almost full time occupied throughout the summer months, and most weekends through the winter. For the last year or two there have been very few winter guests and more of the summer visitors seem to be here for just the weekend rather than a full week.

I think it's down to a combination of money being tighter, so people are cutting back on optional expenditure, heavy marketing by the airlines and package tour companies to rebuild their holiday market post covid, and possibly an increase in the number of holiday lets available as owners cashed in on the staycation boom.

 

Lots of the hirers we met are only out for 4 days, although one was doing 3 weeks 

[magnetman]

I don't really look at prices much and it could be a marketing strategy but a random example of a Thames brokerage has 'price reduced' on almost all of their list. 

 

This is not for canal Boats but it could be a general theme. 

 

https://hutchinsmarine.com/used-boats/

 

[matty40s]

Several factors.

Post Winter increase in brokerage stock due to winter stoppages ending and floods abating. There is always a glut of boats around Easter as people finally make that decision to sell. 

Pre Crick show lull, again, an annual event, people with a purchase interest want to see what is new, and hang on until show is over.

The market is still strong in the budget boats, and fairly new reverse layout, London flat boats, however, there does seem to be a slowing in the £40-£80k market of more traditional laid out boats...the old leisure market.

Tidy boats are still selling very swiftly, a local broker sold one within 3 hours of listing going live last Friday, to a customer not even on the database.

Yes, there are also scammers operating, AppallingoDuk and Faecesbook Marketplace hence the brokerages now watermarking photographs. Police say no crime is being committed by copying and listing these boats!!!

Since January, ABNB has had about 14 boats 'back on the market','available again', 'relisted' etc....not sure what is going on up there.

Edited May 19 by matty40s

[Gybe Ho]

I have clocked over a 1000 miles in my car travelling around the country looking at shells and boats. The shell market is tiny and random, the shell fabricators are either too busy to talk or have an empty order book hence are about to swallow their pride and build Shock Horror, a shell for stock.

 

Nice finished boats in the £60k to £90k range were going under offer within a week or two back in early April but the market has slowed a touch since then.

 

eBay is the junk-bond end of the market and it is not worth trying to infer price trends from eBay. Likewise there are some awful boats under £40k that are little more than project shells that superficially appear to be an in-commission narrowboat.

 

As everyone has mentioned the Covid/Staycation effect has passed. The other major prop to "inflated" values has been material and wage inflation since Covid, that is here to say because good secondhand boat values inevitably chase the inflation seen in new boat pricing. This chasing effect is pronounced in the £70k to £100k secondhand market but the effect ripples down dragging all prices up a tad.

 

All my comments are relative to 57ft to 62ft, adjust accordingly for other LOAs.

 

Also be aware there are market trends and specific boats, quite different things. Some boats have been marred by foolish owners prone to ill conceived diy project and many more owners are chancers having a punt at an inflated price. Then there are the tarted up boats. I looked at one at Rugby Boats sales 3 weeks ago, on paper and in photos it looks good. In the flesh it has poor quality fitout disguised by a lot of fresh internal paint, that boat is 20% overpriced and is languishing on the market for a buyer who after a year will realize a few pots of internal satin wood paint cost £10k.

[LadyG]

I fear that prices will drop over the next few years due to the closures and stoppages which are worse each year.

The market may end up being supported by the prices for alternative housing solutions rather than the leisure industry.

With respect to hire boats, which may be an introduction to boating for families, these can be quite expensive, relative to a three star trip abroad. 

Edited May 19 by LadyG

[MrsM]

2 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Yes, there are also scammers operating, AppallingoDuk and Faecesbook Marketplace hence the brokerages now watermarking photographs. Police say no crime is being committed by copying and listing these boats!!!

I'm shocked to read this - the intent is only to defraud people. How on earth can that not be a crime? Apollo Duck need to up their game if they are letting scammers list boats they don't own. If sellers and buyers lose confidence in the Duck - as they already have with Facebook marketplace - then I think they will soon end up in trouble. 

4 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

I have clocked over a 1000 miles in my car travelling around the country looking at shells and boats. The shell market is tiny and random, the shell fabricators are either too busy to talk or have an empty order book hence are about to swallow their pride and build Shock Horror, a shell for stock.

 

Nice finished boats in the £60k to £90k range were going under offer within a week or two back in early April but the market has slowed a touch since then.

 

eBay is the junk-bond end of the market and it is not worth trying to infer price trends from eBay. Likewise there are some awful boats under £40k that are little more than project shells that superficially appear to be an in-commission narrowboat.

 

As everyone has mentioned the Covid/Staycation effect has passed. The other major prop to "inflated" values has been material and wage inflation since Covid, that is here to say because good secondhand boat values inevitably chase the inflation seen in new boat pricing. This chasing effect is pronounced in the £70k to £100k secondhand market but the effect ripples down dragging all prices up a tad.

 

All my comments are relative to 57ft to 62ft, adjust accordingly for other LOAs.

 

Also be aware there are market trends and specific boats, quite different things. Some boats have been marred by foolish owners prone to ill conceived diy project and many more owners are chancers having a punt at an inflated price. Then there are the tarted up boats. I looked at one at Rugby Boats sales 3 weeks ago, on paper and in photos it looks good. In the flesh it has poor quality fitout disguised by a lot of fresh internal paint, that boat is 20% overpriced and is languishing on the market for a buyer who after a year will realize a few pots of internal satin wood paint cost £10k.

Just being nosey - are you coming round to the idea of buying a used boat, or are you still planning to fit out a shell? None of my business of course. If prices for used boats really are coming down a bit it seems a no-brainer for your first NB. 

[magnetman]

3 minutes ago, LadyG said:

 

The market may end up being supported by the prices for alternative housing solutions rather than the leisure industry.

 

Yes. It will also be interesting to see if the CRT Commission come up with anything serious with regards to 'how we licence Boats on our waterways'. 

 

I sometimes wonder if social media may be having an impact as well. 

 

facebook for example has algorithms which tend to promote negative content so taking the Thames Boaters group as an example all the lock breakdowns are promoted on the feed. It is useful information but it might cause people to be rather put off the idea of having a Boat. 

 

Things are changing on inland waterways it will be interesting to see how it all is in ten years time. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gybe Ho]

17 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Several factors.

Post Winter increase in brokerage stock due to winter stoppages ending and floods abating. There is always a glut of boats around Easter as people finally make that decision to sell.

 

 

Not this year, Easter was very late and preceded with excellent weather. Easter was slap bang in the middle of a fast moving market.

 

17 minutes ago, matty40s said:

 

Pre Crick show lull, again, an annual event, people with a purchase interest want to see what is new, and hang on until show is over.

 

 

Really? The bulk of the secondhand market is people shopping with £40k to £80k and these buyers expect to move aboard within a month. Booking a build slot for a new boat starts a 15 month project that is going to cost £175k to £250k.

 

17 minutes ago, matty40s said:

 

Since January, ABNB has had about 14 boats 'back on the market','available again', 'relisted' etc....not sure what is going on up there.

 

 

North Kilworth? They seem like a level headed bunch at the brokerage there.

Edited May 19 by Gybe Ho

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, MrsM said:

I'm shocked to read this - the intent is only to defraud people. How on earth can that not be a crime? Apollo Duck need to up their game if they are letting scammers list boats they don't own. If sellers and buyers lose confidence in the Duck - as they already have with Facebook marketplace - then I think they will soon end up in trouble. 

 

Sorry, but what everyone needs to understand is that these online outfits have been put in a very privileged and special position in law, in that they are not considered publishers and thus responsible for the content they publish so it is very hard and expensive to take any action against them - including by governments. We are discussing fraudulent boat marketing, but the same applies to highly anti-social posts on other online setups - hence the problems for children.

 

As far as the Duck, Ebay, Facebook etc. are concerned, I doubt there is a breach of the law (ignoring the fact many of these companies have terms and conditions that mean you would need to take action under US law), but I am sure the advertises is committing a crime. However, the problems the internet companies throw up to thwart police enquiries probably means that it is a waste of resources to pursue it.

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Yes. It will also be interesting to see if the CRT Commission come up with anything serious with regards to 'how we licence Boats on our waterways'. 

 

A curious term isn't it? 

 

I licence my boat the same way as everybody else. By going to the "Licence your boat" section on the CRT website (or if necessary, calling them).

 

Seems to work quite well. 

 

 

[magnetman]

I think it is mainly pointing out that licensing on canals is permission based. One must jump through various hoops. Maybe an extra hoop is being considered. 

 

 

 

Anyway that is wandering off topic. 

 

It is about secondhand prices. 

 

I suppose brokers would know about trends because they actually see the selling price. Other than that it would be very difficult to get the data. 

 

 

[IanD]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

I think it is mainly pointing out that licensing on canals is permission based. One must jump through various hoops. Maybe an extra hoop is being considered. 

 

 

Probably one too small for CMers to get through... 😉 

[LadyG]

Deleted as Off topic

Edited May 19 by LadyG

[junior]

29 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Sorry, but what everyone needs to understand is that these online outfits have been put in a very privileged and special position in law, in that they are not considered publishers and thus responsible for the content they publish so it is very hard and expensive to take any action against them - including by governments. We are discussing fraudulent boat marketing, but the same applies to highly anti-social posts on other online setups - hence the problems for children.

 

As far as the Duck, Ebay, Facebook etc. are concerned, I doubt there is a breach of the law (ignoring the fact many of these companies have terms and conditions that mean you would need to take action under US law), but I am sure the advertises is committing a crime. However, the problems the internet companies throw up to thwart police enquiries probably means that it is a waste of resources to pursue it.

 

I reckon that copying someone's advert does show and intent to defraud, but only when you actually do the fraudulent deal and money changes hands. For fraud you have to have a victim, and you only have a victim one they hand the money over. 

 

The person who published the initial genuine advert is probably a victim of publishing copyright, which as far as I am aware is a civil matter. 

 

Whilst you could consider the offence of 'Attempted' fraud, to commit an 'attempt' offence, the act has to be "more than merely preparatory", and one could argue that just posting some words and pictures on the internet is only preparatory. I certainly don't think it would stand up in court and that is where that wording will matter. I would say it tips into 'more than preparatory' once contact and dialogue is exchanged between the scammer and the victim. 

[Mike Tee]

Bring back keel hauling.

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, Mike Tee said:

Bring back keel hauling.

 

You'd need to reintroduce the Springer NB's.

Maybe that could be a use for them - station them close to busy Junctions and it could be rented out by the hour - (provide your own keel-hauling rope) a lucrative business model.

[cuthound]

45 minutes ago, Mike Tee said:

Bring back keel hauling.

 

But the canals are rarely deep enough for that these days...