Historic use of Lime mortar in canals

[Porthole]

Hi Folks

I'm doing a small research project into the historic use of (lime) mortars in canals. Was wondering if anyone had access to any mortar analysis of historic mortars, eg local enthusiast groups that may have had testing done? Have contacted the usual suspects but they've not been hugely helpful.

 

Also interested if anyone can point me towards actual evidence of portland cements (1800s style) being used, or general archival evidence. I don't have the time at this point to go rifling through archives myself.

Any other relevant info would also be appreciated!!

[Pluto]

There was a paper on early Portland cement written by P E Halstead published by the Newcomen Society in 1961, with Skempton following the next year with a look at developments 1843-1887. I have also attached a file I put together very quickly in 2009 when the use of lime on the Augustowski Canal was proposed for World Heritage. You can find numerous contemporary books on the subject by a trawl through Google Books.

lime and the Augustowski Canal.pdf

[Heartland]

Canal construction records sometimes mention the use of mortar and of course early railways and plateway construction had need of mortar in the structures made.

 

Then there is the transport of lime by canal and limestone to the kiln and the burning of limestone to create lime for building and agricultural purposes.

 

To what depth you intend to look into regarding this request ?

 

  

[David Mack]

Is this an academic exercise, or are you looking for practical help in determining the appropriate materials for use in the restoration of canal structures?

If the latter try contacting CRT's heritage staff who have their own requirements.

[Porthole]

Primarily an academic excersise

 

Unfortunately CRT are "the usual suspects" I mentioned

 

[ditchcrawler]

2 minutes ago, Porthole said:

Primarily an academic excersise

 

Unfortunately CRT are "the usual suspects" I mentioned

 

Have you spoken to the IWA and their WRGs ?

[Porthole]

 

3 hours ago, Pluto said:

There was a paper on early Portland cement written by P E Halstead published by the Newcomen Society in 1961, with Skempton following the next year with a look at developments 1843-1887. I have also attached a file I put together very quickly in 2009 when the use of lime on the Augustowski Canal was proposed for World Heritage. You can find numerous contemporary books on the subject by a trawl through Google Books.

lime and the Augustowski Canal.pdf 58.36 kB · 1 download

Thank you for this and for the article suggestion. Frustratingly my institution doesn't have access to this but I have requested it.
Funnily enough the content in the attached file helped my hugely when starting my research, as you had posted it in a previous thread. Thank you so much

24 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Have you spoken to the IWA and their WRGs ?

Yeah, they were significantly more helpful but still weren't able to provide me with specifics beyond their general advice notes. They have guidance from around 2000 and are yet to publish the updated document

[1st ade]

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

Is this an academic exercise, or are you looking for practical help in determining the appropriate materials for use in the restoration of canal structures?

Also worth seeking a view from @magpie patrick - part of his Day Job sometimes involves advising on the use of the correct mortar for restoring listed canal architecture.

[Tonka]

2 minutes ago, 1st ade said:

Also worth seeking a view from @magpie patrick - part of his Day Job sometimes involves advising on the use of the correct mortar for restoring listed canal architecture.

Does he do non canal architecture 

[Porthole]

2 minutes ago, 1st ade said:

Also worth seeking a view from @magpie patrick - part of his Day Job sometimes involves advising on the use of the correct mortar for restoring listed canal architecture.

That would be enormously helpful if he's willing! Just signed up to canalworld today (I do have a nb, just not a bit forum user) so cannot direct message him at the moment (minimum 10 posts before you can DM someone apparently).

I am very interested to know what NHL is reccomended for lock pound repointing and other masonry repairs. Haven't been able to talk to anyone who can give me details

[Tonka]

23 minutes ago, Porthole said:

That would be enormously helpful if he's willing! Just signed up to canalworld today (I do have a nb, just not a bit forum user) so cannot direct message him at the moment (minimum 10 posts before you can DM someone apparently).

I am very interested to know what NHL is reccomended for lock pound repointing and other masonry repairs. Haven't been able to talk to anyone who can give me details

Isn't NHL a modern invention, I would have thought more likely to have been hot lime

[Porthole]

1 minute ago, Tonka said:

Isn't NHL a modern invention, I would have thought more likely to have been hot lime

I meant what is reccomended now.
And not really. NHLs are just classifications of hydraulic limes, classified by their 'hardness'. Hydraulic limes have been classified in one way or another for nearly 200 years, NHL 2, 3.5, 5 are just the current standard. 

Hot mix is a method of mixing up a mortar

[Tonka]

1 minute ago, Porthole said:

I meant what is reccomended now.
And not really. NHLs are just classifications of hydraulic limes, classified by their 'hardness'. Hydraulic limes have been classified in one way or another for nearly 200 years, NHL 2, 3.5, 5 are just the current standard. 

Hot mix is a method of mixing up a mortar

Having a 1650 grade 2 house, I know

[1st ade]

1 hour ago, Tonka said:

Does he do non canal architecture 

I don't know - but I suspect (knowing @magpie patrick) if there was, say, a Tesco with canal side and EV charging points and an off-premise ATM, he'd be the first to suggest making both blend in with the canal, including the mortar....

[Tonka]

Can't English Heritage help ?

[Pluto]

Lime mortars are an interesting, but difficult, area for research as in England they are on the border between academic research and the knowledge gained by a craft training. English universities only looked at pure science and seemed uninterested in applied science, certainly related to civil and mechanical engineering. This was much less so on the continent, and to an extent in Scotland where both pure and applied sciences were studied. This is reflected in the more numerous engineering-related (and specifically on mortar) books published on the continent. In England the industrial revolution came about because of our craft tradition, with European countries keen for English craftsmen to cross the Channel as they were considered much superior to local craftsmen.

 

With regard to lime mortars, there are some English contemporary academic papers and archive material, though these could be the result of 'pure' scientific research, and not widely used in practice. From looking at archive papers related to those actually involved in canal construction, they would sometimes stipulated specific lime sources for mortar, though at the same time use locally-sourced lime products for less critical works. The percentage of each would vary from job to job depending on cost, time-scale and availability. Although poorly educated in modern terms, the craftsmen engineers who built our canals had a wide knowledge of lime mortars which had been passed down from craftsman to apprentice, and they often had specific demands for a particular type of lime. Rennie's notes in the National Library of Scotland contain a number of analyses of lime made as he travelled around the country. I would expect each engineer to have his own favourite compositions when it came to mortars.

[Heartland]

It is still not clear to what extent your research is heading.

Discussions about Portland Cement and hydraulic cements are only part of the topic unless that is what needed.

As stated earlier lime was created from limestone and one one of the uses was as a mortar and another use was in agriculture and later in the chemical industry. Limestone had an important use in iron smelting,

 

the increased use of brick in buildings and structures provided an important use for mortar as a cement to hold the bricks together

[Tonka]

13 minutes ago, Heartland said:

It is still not clear to what extent your research is heading.

Discussions about Portland Cement and hydraulic cements are only part of the topic unless that is what needed.

As stated earlier lime was created from limestone and one one of the uses was as a mortar and another use was in agriculture and later in the chemical industry. Limestone had an important use in iron smelting,

 

the increased use of brick in buildings and structures provided an important use for mortar as a cement to hold the bricks together

Are you sure that last paragraph is correct. It appears wrong to me 

Shouldn't it be "use of cement as mortar"

And didn't it change just to speed up the building process

[David Mack]

53 minutes ago, Heartland said:

the increased use of brick in buildings and structures provided an important use for mortar as a cement to hold the bricks together

Isn't the purpose of mortar to hold the bricks (or stones) apart?

[Derek R.]

Mortar is the bonding agent between bricks and blocks. It also allows a degree of alignment to be corrected when certain bricks or blocks are not uniform in their casting. As such, the mortar becomes an integral part of the overall strength of a structure.

[Tonka]

1 hour ago, Derek R. said:

Mortar is the bonding agent between bricks and blocks. It also allows a degree of alignment to be corrected when certain bricks or blocks are not uniform in their casting. As such, the mortar becomes an integral part of the overall strength of a structure.

But shouldn't be too hard as then the bricks and blocks will break rather then the mortar if their is movement.

Even NHL 3.5 is too for most stone buildings

[Pluto]

What I suspect the OP is looking at is how lime mortars were developed to become impervious to water and/or able to cure in wet conditions. Standard 18th century lime mortars were not impervious, which led Lancashire and Yorkshire builders to develop the water-shot wall, where the stonework bed dipped to the outside of the building. Rain water would then tend to run out of the building rather than in to it. This method usually dates a building to pre-1810/20, as after that it had become cheaper to buy or produce impervious types of mortar. The photo shows water-shot stonework used on Stockbridge warehouse, which was originally built in the 1770s.

[Momac]

The Grantham Canal  Society have constructed locks . They  might be prepared to share knowledge in return for a donation.

Grantham Canal

 

[Tonka]

9 minutes ago, Pluto said:

What I suspect the OP is looking at is how lime mortars were developed to become impervious to water and/or able to cure in wet conditions. Standard 18th century lime mortars were not impervious, which led Lancashire and Yorkshire builders to develop the water-shot wall, where the stonework bed dipped to the outside of the building. Rain water would then tend to run out of the building rather than in to it. This method usually dates a building to pre-1810/20, as after that it had become cheaper to buy or produce impervious types of mortar. The photo shows water-shot stonework used on Stockbridge warehouse, which was originally built in the 1770s.

But lime mortar is designed to let the water vapour out and the house breath. It is when people repoint there houses with cement mortar that they start getting mould etc.

Then they get hoodwinked by the damp wally brigade telling them they need to have a damp proof course injected and the bottom 1 metre high inside bottom walls re-plastered with gypsum. Then they make it worse by putting vinyl emulsion paint on. 

End result the house is worse off then when they started and their pockets are a lot lighter

[Ronaldo47]

My understanding is that the main reason for the progressively reduced use of traditional (eminently hydraulic) limes in favour of Portland, was that most of the quarries they were obtained from, got worked out.