New Style Windlass

[SandyD]

Hi All,

 

On our trip down the oxford canal I spotted this sign on one of the paddle winder posts. When were the new style windlasses with 19mm tapering holes introduced? and did they do it all at once or a phased approach?

 

Thanks

[Tam & Di]

I assume that's an extremely old notice?

[alan_fincher]

53 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

I assume that's an extremely old notice?

It is indeed.

They never really ever actually finalised on one size.  Hydraulic paddles from around the 1970s, and original Ham Baker ones using the "candlestick" type paddles between Calcutt ans Birmingham all remained as a much bigger size, somewhat akin to how GU main line London to  Braunston used to be. (although they were tapered, which the  two types I have listed were not.

I don't actually know the detail of how the switchover was done - we didn't have a boat at those times.  I don't think it actually represented any type of improvement though!

[Ray T]

From information I have gleaned, Waterways at one time wanted to standardize paddle spindles. Workmen started on the Curdworth Flight by cutting off an existing spindle with an oxy-acetylene torch. The then lock keeper stopped them and asked what they were doing? They were contractors retained by BWB and explained they were to cut off large spindles such as the Ham Baker type and others and replace them with the small tapered BCN type spindle. The lock keeper reported this to his manager who said BWB were starting a standardization programme. The visit to Curdworth was to try out the best way of doing the job.
As the paddle gear on the Ham Baker were and still are listed structures the programme of standardization was dropped.
This eventually led to the production of the "Dunton Double" which would fit both types of spindles. The then lock keeper at Curdworth was involved with the design along with a pattern maker.

 

Edited May 9 by Ray T

[ditchcrawler]

53 minutes ago, Ray T said:

From information I have gleaned, Waterways at one time wanted to standardize paddle spindles. Workmen started on the Curdworth Flight by cutting off an existing spindle with an oxy-acetylene torch. The then lock keeper stopped them and asked what they were doing? They were contractors retained by BWB and explained they were to cut off large spindles such as the Ham Baker type and others and replace them with the small tapered BCN type spindle. The lock keeper reported this to his manager who said BWB were starting a standardization programme. The visit to Curdworth was to try out the best way of doing the job.
As the paddle gear on the Ham Baker were and still are listed structures the programme of standardization was dropped.
This eventually led to the production of the "Dunton Double" which would fit both types of spindles. The then lock keeper at Curdworth was involved with the design along with a pattern maker.

 

I saw a Dunton Single this week. It only fits the small spindles 

[Stroudwater1]

Did all the hydraulic paddle gear have large size spindles? I was under the impression that they were the smaller size except perhaps on the GU and maybe some of the Northern navigations. 

[Mike Tee]

1 hour ago, Ray T said:

From information I have gleaned, Waterways at one time wanted to standardize paddle spindles. Workmen started on the Curdworth Flight by cutting off an existing spindle with an oxy-acetylene torch. The then lock keeper stopped them and asked what they were doing? They were contractors retained by BWB and explained they were to cut off large spindles such as the Ham Baker type and others and replace them with the small tapered BCN type spindle. The lock keeper reported this to his manager who said BWB were starting a standardization programme. The visit to Curdworth was to try out the best way of doing the job.
As the paddle gear on the Ham Baker were and still are listed structures the programme of standardization was dropped.
This eventually led to the production of the "Dunton Double" which would fit both types of spindles. The then lock keeper at Curdworth was involved with the design along with a pattern maker.

 

Is the top one brass or bronze? Looks rather nice whatever it is.

[Ray T]

13 minutes ago, Mike Tee said:

Is the top one brass or bronze? Looks rather nice whatever it is.

It appears to be a bronze alloy, not purely brass. I have tried it out on both the Hatton locks and on the locks from Kings Bromley to Fradley return. It hasn’t bent or buckled but it is very heavy.

[Mike Tee]

Looks good  - was it a custom build for you, or are there others about?

[brianthesnail96]

40 minutes ago, Mike Tee said:

Looks good  - was it a custom build for you, or are there others about?

 

Someone is selling them on eBay at the moment, they seem to have a few. There's another thread on here somewhere. I've resisted temptation so far... 

 

eBay link

[MtB]

38 minutes ago, brianthesnail96 said:

 

Someone is selling them on eBay at the moment, they seem to have a few. There's another thread on here somewhere. I've resisted temptation so far... 

 

eBay link

 

Swerving off at a reckless tangent, I notice the price is £99.52. That's a weird price to settle on but I notice lots of ebay sales with similarly odd prices. £99.99 would seem a more conventional and understandable price.

 

Does anyone know why these apparently random number of pence get added to ebay selling prices these days? 

 

 

[LadyG]

10 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Swerving off at a reckless tangent, I notice the price is £99.52. That's a weird price to settle on but I notice lots of ebay sales with similarly odd prices. £99.99 would seem a more conventional and understandable price.

 

Does anyone know why these apparently random number of pence get added to ebay selling prices these days? 

 

 

Not sure, but I think it may be due to the postage charges.

[brianthesnail96]

It's the "buyer protection fee". 

Or I suspect as it could otherwise be termed, "more profit". 

[jonesthenuke]

12 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Swerving off at a reckless tangent, I notice the price is £99.52. That's a weird price to settle on but I notice lots of ebay sales with similarly odd prices. £99.99 would seem a more conventional and understandable price.

 

Does anyone know why these apparently random number of pence get added to ebay selling prices these days? 

My guess is that now Ebay has made selling "free"  they add a percentage to the price the seller posts.

[LadyG]

I bought my Dunton Double from Ebay for £39.95, five years ago, it's very nice, I have a fairly cheapo long handled aluminium thing I've never used,  and a massive steel affair that could open the Thames Barrier but which has been used, once.

I think the bronze DD is for keeping after giving up the boat.

I have occasionally tapped my DD on some harder bits of metal, before I realised the futility of such action....

Edited May 9 by LadyG

[MtB]

9 minutes ago, jonesthenuke said:

My guess is that now Ebay has made selling "free"  they add a percentage to the price the seller posts.

 

Aha thanks, that makes sense. 

 

ISTR paying them several hundred quid when I sold an engine on there for lots of £k, back in the day! 

 

 

[Ray T]

11 hours ago, Mike Tee said:

Looks good  - was it a custom build for you, or are there others about?

I got it off eBay, not at the requested price, I made an offer which was accepted. I know the son of the above mentioned lock keeper and he told me the bronze alloy ones were made as presentation pieces. The person selling them is the cousin of the pattern maker, I believe. As mentioned previously it is very heavy, certainly not a tuck it in your trouser belt Jobbie. Original Dunton windlass have the pattern makers initials engraved in the socket. As the lock keeper and the pattern maker found it too expensive to patent the design there may be “knock off” copies around.
This is a carbon fibre copy. It is not strong enough to use as I am aware of ones which have split. To be fair I was offered a refund by the maker but decided to keep it as a display piece.

Edited May 10 by Ray T

[Jonny P]

12 hours ago, Stroudwater1 said:

Did all the hydraulic paddle gear have large size spindles? I was under the impression that they were the smaller size except perhaps on the GU and maybe some of the Northern navigations. 

I’m pretty sure that both types exist; even on the four sets of such paddles that I can think of in the Midlands.

[Francis Herne]

12 hours ago, Stroudwater1 said:

Did all the hydraulic paddle gear have large size spindles? I was under the impression that they were the smaller size except perhaps on the GU and maybe some of the Northern navigations. 

The hydraulic paddles on the T&M below Stenson have large square spindles, even when rack-and-pinion paddles on the same lock have small tapers.

 

I think the North Stratford lift bridges are large too - coming across one with a small taper on the Peak Forest last year was a surprise.

[Tacet]

I seem to recall there being different sized paddle spindles from lock-to-lock in the early 1970s.  Certainly the double eyed windlass was then in common use.

 

There were (and are)  more than two sizes required if you travelled more widely.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

11 hours ago, Ray T said:

It appears to be a bronze alloy, not purely brass.

<pedant>Brass is also an alloy. Copper/Zinc in various proportions. Bronze is Copper/Tin in various proportions. Both may have other elements in minor amounts depending, by accident, or design.</pedant>

[MtB]

13 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

<pedant>Brass is also an alloy. Copper/Zinc in various proportions. Bronze is Copper/Tin in various proportions. Both may have other elements in minor amounts depending, by accident, or design.</pedant>

 

And to add to that, most brass alloys are very non-ductile (for want of the correct word!) meaning they generally crack and break under stress rather than bend. So brass is the last thing you want a windlass to be made from. 

 

Bronze OTOH is nice and ductile if not particularly strong. A bronze windlass will bend if you apply too much force (instead of breaking unexpectedly like brass, and possibly tipping you into the cut).

 

 

[Francis Herne]

18 minutes ago, Tacet said:

There were (and are)  more than two sizes required if you travelled more widely.

Where are there non-standard windlass sizes still in use?

 

I know about Great Ouse/Middle Level ones and Calder & Hebble spikes, any other versions?

[Stroudwater1]

3 minutes ago, Francis Herne said:

Where are there non-standard windlass sizes still in use?

 

I know about Great Ouse/Middle Level ones and Calder & Hebble spikes, any other versions?

I think there are still some lever style paddles on the L&L though technically not a windlass size. I suppose you could use the old style L&L windlass as a lever as my recollection was they were tough to get started. 

[Ray T]