All 240v power out - troubleshooting advice?

[wouldiwere123]

Hi all,

Grateful for any pointers as am not too versed in all things electrical. Have a 12v and a 24v system on my NB - yesterday the 240 system suddenly failed (had just turned on the socket for the water heater and it came on for a second and then went - since then, none of the 240 sockets work). Inverter has no error message and seems to be working fine, and all 12v working as normal. 

Posting to see if there are obvious things I can do to troubleshoot before going to the expense of calling out an electrician!

Thanks so much in advance

[Alan de Enfield]

 

Are you on a mains 'land line' or using the boat inverter ?

 

It sounds as if the mains supply 'fuse' or 'trip' has gone.

 

 

If on a land line go and check the switches on the bollard, are they all in the correct position ?

If they are, then follow the fault finding below :

 

 

1) If on an inverter - check all switches / trips to ensure they are in the correct position.

2) If your battery voltage is low then the inverter will do a disconnect and not work - so - you get no 240v What voltage are you batteries ?

 

If you find a tripped switch then turn off everything, put the switch back into the 'on' position and turn each appliance back on until it trips again - that is the faulty appliance. If it doesn't trip then it could just be a 'tired' RCD.

 

On our caravan park I find I need to change the caravans RCDs at about 10 years old - it seems the 'springs' in the unit get tired and just randomly trip.

 

 

(other colours are available)

 

If it is the yellow tab (not the button) that has tripped it could be an electrical problem but in my experience is usually just 'tired' and a replacement solves the problem.

Edited May 7 by Alan de Enfield

[Tony Brooks]

Sounds like the water heater might have developed a short circuit, so it tripped a 240V circuit breaker or RCD. Try turning the heater off and  resetting the circuit breaker on the mains breaker board.

[wouldiwere123]

Thanks so much both, really appreciate it. Am on an inverter but power level is good and inverter is working fine when I plug straight into it. None of the breakers were tripped so don't think that's the issue. Have also checked the fuse on the plug coming from the inverter and that's working. Am drawing a bit of a blank!

Thanks so much for the input 

[Gybe Ho]

3 minutes ago, wouldiwere123 said:

Thanks so much both, really appreciate it. Am on an inverter but power level is good and inverter is working fine when I plug straight into it. None of the breakers were tripped so don't think that's the issue. Have also checked the fuse on the plug coming from the inverter and that's working. Am drawing a bit of a blank!

 

 

What device did you plug directly into the invertor to test 240 AC power?

 

Is the "water heater" an immersion heater fitted in a calorifier?

 

Were you still plugged into shore power when you switched on the water heater?

 

My questions are based on a theory that your shore power has tripped and the heater switch on drama was caused when the batteries could not deliver enough electricity to power the water heater.

[Tony Brooks]

8 minutes ago, wouldiwere123 said:

Thanks so much both, really appreciate it. Am on an inverter but power level is good and inverter is working fine when I plug straight into it. None of the breakers were tripped so don't think that's the issue. Have also checked the fuse on the plug coming from the inverter and that's working. Am drawing a bit of a blank!

Thanks so much for the input 

 

Are you looking at breakers or fuses on the 12V distribution panel or the 240V consumer unit. It will look like the small consumer unit you find in house garages or sheds. You need the 240V consumer unit. Send us photos of all the "boxes" or panels that contain fuses or circuit breakers.

 

Do you have a shore line connection as well as the inverter? Is so and if it is an older inverter, how do you select shore line or inverter to power the boat's 240V circuits? Some use a manual switch, some use a "plug board", while other use an automatic change over relay. If yours is the latter, then that might have failed. However, it still sunds like a breaker that you have not fund has tripped.

[wouldiwere123]

3 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

What device did you plug directly into the invertor to test 240 AC power?

 

Is the "water heater" an immersion heater fitted in a calorifier?

 

Were you still plugged into shore power when you switched on the water heater?

 

My questions are based on a theory that your shore power has tripped and the heater switch on drama was caused when the batteries could not deliver enough electricity to power the water heater.

Hiya - water heater is an instant hot water heater (rinnai). I'm not on shore power, only have the inverter to get 240 out of my battery bank. And unfortunately the 240 issues are throughout the boat - e.g. I've got a 240 socket on the distribution panel right after the inverter which isn't working. 

Trying to remember any other questions - tested the inverter with a laptop charger

 

9 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Are you looking at breakers or fuses on the 12V distribution panel or the 240V consumer unit. It will look like the small consumer unit you find in house garages or sheds. You need the 240V consumer unit. Send us photos of all the "boxes" or panels that contain fuses or circuit breakers.

 

Do you have a shore line connection as well as the inverter? Is so and if it is an older inverter, how do you select shore line or inverter to power the boat's 240V circuits? Some use a manual switch, some use a "plug board", while other use an automatic change over relay. If yours is the latter, then that might have failed. However, it still sunds like a breaker that you have not fund has tripped.

Hi Tony,

Agree with your theory that the issue is a breaker I've yet to find - can't figure out where it would be! 

Its a new inverter but there's a manual switch to go from shoreline to inverter. The breakers I've found are on the 230v section of the distribution panel (there's a 12v and a 230v panel on mine.) 

Have tried to upload some pics to show what I mean!

[Tony Brooks]

It sounds as if your water heater uses spark ignition rather than a pilot light, and if so the spark generator may have failed/shorted and thus tripped the 240V circuit breaker or RCD. If you have 240V coming out of the inverter, then the fault has to be between that and the mains outlets on the boat. The most likely items that could shut the whole 240V system down are circuit breakers, RCD, change over device, or a loose connection between the inverter and mains consumer unit.

 

Only if you know what you are doing (mains can kill), it is time to use a multimeter set for mains testing and work away from the inverter towards the failed sockets to see where the electricity stops.  I think the meter will need to be set to something like 500V AC or 500V with a little squiggly line - don't hold me to that but don't have a meter to hand to check the settings. If you are not confident and you are sure it is not a breaker problem, then it is time to call in an electrician..

[wouldiwere123]

Thanks so much - this all sounds sensible. Only thing that doesn't seem to fit is that I didn't even get to the point of turning on the boiler - I turned on the switch on the fused spur and it turned on for a second and then went off, so don't think it can be that the ignition for the heater tripped it (as it hadn't been turned on yet). I'm definitely not too confident with electrics yet so think you're right and it's time to call in an electrician... 

Thanks so much for all the advice, greatly appreciated

[Tony Brooks]

17 minutes ago, wouldiwere123 said:

Hi Tony,

Agree with your theory that the issue is a breaker I've yet to find - can't figure out where it would be! 

Its a new inverter but there's a manual switch to go from shoreline to inverter. The breakers I've found are on the 230v section of the distribution panel (there's a 12v and a 230v panel on mine.) 

Have tried to upload some pics to show what I mean!

 

 

From what I can see you have found the mains consumer unit which also has source selector switches. I agree, no breakers seem to have tripped, so wonder if the selector switch in the right has failed for some odd reason.

 

I would be going behind that panel and ensuring all the terminal screws on all the switches and breakers are tight, WITH THE INVERTER TURNED OFF. As long as there is no 240V supply, you can do this safely.

Edited May 7 by Tony Brooks

[Slim]

Have you tried physically following the cable out of the inverter? (assuming it's hardwired). What is the first component you encounter? As I recall when I fitted a replacement Combi (Mastervolt) before anything else the 230V output went through an RCD.  If yours is similar check this.

[Tony Brooks]

2 hours ago, Slim said:

Have you tried physically following the cable out of the inverter? (assuming it's hardwired). What is the first component you encounter? As I recall when I fitted a replacement Combi (Mastervolt) before anything else the 230V output went through an RCD.  If yours is similar check this.

 

His photo suggests there is an RCD in the distribution panel, 2nd from right, and it seems to be turned on, but who knows what else may be fitted.

[Quattrodave]

@wouldiwere123 Any chance of a photo of the inverter and surrounding area please....?

[Onewheeler]

Is the 230V system connected to the inverter using a plug? If so, has the fuse blown in it?

[Tony Brooks]

7 hours ago, wouldiwere123 said:

Have also checked the fuse on the plug coming from the inverter and that's working. Am drawing a bit of a blank!

 

3 minutes ago, Onewheeler said:

s the 230V system connected to the inverter using a plug? If so, has the fuse blown in it?

 

Although it is not absolutely clear what the OP means by this quote, it rather suggests that the circuits do connect to the inverter by a plug and that fuse has been checked. I have no idea if the terminal screws in the said plug were also checked.

[Kingdom Isambard Brunel]

Long shot, do you have 2 sockets and a flying lead so that you can swap from inverter to land line?  Plug in wrong socket or the fuse in it blown?

[Tony Brooks]

5 minutes ago, Kingdom Isambard Brunel said:

Long shot, do you have 2 sockets and a flying lead so that you can swap from inverter to land line?  Plug in wrong socket or the fuse in it blown?

 

Unlikely according to the OP's images, it seems just switches, but again, who knows without looking.

[BoatingLifeUpNorth2]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Unlikely according to the OP's images, it seems just switches, but again, who knows without looking.

The switches look like they may not work? As one is on Landline and one is on inverter and no power indicator light on. So maybe a non functioning panel or part functioning?

 

Edited May 7 by BoatingLifeUpNorth2

[jonathanA]

My starting point would be are any of the Green lights on the mains panel lit ? 

 

If the inverter one is not then the inverter is faulty or there is a wiring problem between the inverter and the distribution panel 

 

The position of the switches will not affect whether the various lights are lit or not.

[wouldiwere123]

Morning and thanks so much for all the input. Looking at it again this morning I agree with those that have said there's likely an issue with the distribution panel, as none of the lights are on there. Will attach pictures of the inverter, the plug connecting it with the distribution panel and wiring inside the 240v distribution panel. I can't see any obvious problems - will replace the taped connection in the distribution panel with a proper wire connector but doubt that's what's causing the problem.

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

I don't know the inverter, but what is that three position (I 0 II) switch for, just above the green block in the photo. It looks as if it may be set to 0 (off).

[wouldiwere123]

5 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I don't know the inverter, but what is that three position (I 0 II) switch for, just above the green block in the photo. It looks as if it may be set to 0 (off).

You're right, it's just off at the minute as I'm tinkering with the surrounding cabling. The supply direct from the inverter (I.e. with a laptop or other 240 item plugged directly into the inverter) seem to be working fine, and not getting any error lights from the inverter when it is on, so fairly sure the issue isn't there

[Alan de Enfield]

 

Would the 12/500 model number on the inverter signify it was a 500w inverter ?

 

In which case if it was trying to run a water heater (immersion) I'd not be surprised if something went 'pooof'.

Edited May 8 by Alan de Enfield

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

In which case if it was trying to run a water heater (immersion) I'd not be surprised if something went 'pooof'.

 

The OP clarified that and said it is a Rimini instant gas water heater, so probably only the igniter load.

[nicknorman]

3 minutes ago, wouldiwere123 said:

You're right, it's just off at the minute as I'm tinkering with the surrounding cabling. The supply direct from the inverter (I.e. with a laptop or other 240 item plugged directly into the inverter) seem to be working fine, and not getting any error lights from the inverter when it is on, so fairly sure the issue isn't there

I think you will just have to check for mains voltage along the system, starting with the plug. Presumably you have checked that the plug fuse is OK? If it were me I’d plug it into the inverter with its lid off (as shown) and use a multimeter set to ac voltage to check for 230v between live and neutral. If not present, it’s an issue with the inverter. If present, move to the distribution panel and check for voltage on the inverter input wires (right of the picture) etc. Of course, mains voltage can be fatal,so you need to be very careful when doing this.

 

Id also mention that, whilst it’s probably not the issue, it is bad practice to have screw down connectors onto stranded wire. You can see that some of the wires going into the chocolate block connector have ferrules, but others are just bare wires. The screws tend to cut the strands and make a poor connection and potentially cut through the strands. I’d get a packet of appropriately sized terminal ferrules.

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Would the 12/500 model number on the inverter signify it was a 500w inverter ?

 

In which case if it was trying to run a water heater (immersion) I'd not be surprised if something went 'pooof'.

It wasn’t.